Are Assault units always needed?

[DarkGuard]

Hi everyone. At the moment I'm getting prepared for a local tournament between five Games Workshop stores in my county. In my most recent game, I was using an Assault Squad, and if I'm being honest they were underwhelming, as they always have been. Now I won't go for Assault Terminators, so if I want combat it would seem I need them. However, the question is, do we need combat units for an effective list?

 

Talking to some people at my store, the general consensus is that Codex Space Marines aren't meant for assault, unless you're willing to fork out a lot of points for Terminators and Land Raiders or Vanguard. However, some people point out the fact that the Marine's best asset in the army is large amounts of manoeuvrable firepower. Vindicators, Sternguard, Land Speeders, Bike Squadsm even the Tactical Squads. Some have suggested that instead of trying to shoehorn in a combat unit, good Marine lists would benefit from more mobile, shooty units who can handle themselves in assault.

 

Sternguard and Command Squads have multiple attacks. Tactical Squads can take power weapons and such. It's not perfect and not amazing in combat, but against combat oriented armies such as Blood Angels, our poor and small amount of Assault units will get beaten easily, so would it not be better to shoot them down quickly?

 

I've posted this here to see what this community thinks. Are Assault units a must have in Space Marine army list? Or should we be focussing on mobile firepower more than assault units?

 

PS: sorry if this has been discussed before, my searching is pretty bad.

 

Edit: sorry for misspelling 'needed' in title guys, can't believe I did that

[Koremu]

Depends what you want the Assault unit to do. There's a world of difference between Assault Squads (volume of cheap attacks) which are a cleaner unit, and killer units like Assault Terminators, tricked out Vanguard and Command Squads.

 

The latter are units that you build an army around. The former is a unit that you put in to support a different army build.

[Grey Mage]

Pedro automatically makes your units near him almost twice as good at CC compared to how they had been. Take a scoring unit of sterngaurd, or two, and youll find that three attacks base, 4 on the charge if you so choose, is quite excellant. A SCCW on the seargent allows it to be a good counter-assault unit that still fully contributes to your gunline.

 

Dreadnaughts can also fullfill this function if you dislike Pedro lists.

[DarkGuard]

Both good ideas, and at this tournament I'm thinking of trying out Pedro and some Sternguard instead of Assault Marines.

 

However, not sure if I've quite got my point across, forgive me if I have, what I'm trying to say is that instead of ensuring we should always include some CC units in our lists, wouldn't it better to focus on other factors such as mobility or firepower? Afterall, if CC isn't a strength of Codex Marines (and let's face it, it isn't), then surely Codex Marines should focus on firepower and mobility which we can get in abundance with cheap transports? So instead of ensuring that Assault Terminator Squad is included with an Land Raider, wouldn't a couple of units of Sternguard in Razorback be better, as they emphasis the mobility and shooting aspect of the list?

[Grey Mage]

Both good ideas, and at this tournament I'm thinking of trying out Pedro and some Sternguard instead of Assault Marines.

 

However, not sure if I've quite got my point across, forgive me if I have, what I'm trying to say is that instead of ensuring we should always include some CC units in our lists, wouldn't it better to focus on other factors such as mobility or firepower? Afterall, if CC isn't a strength of Codex Marines (and let's face it, it isn't), then surely Codex Marines should focus on firepower and mobility which we can get in abundance with cheap transports? So instead of ensuring that Assault Terminator Squad is included with an Land Raider, wouldn't a couple of units of Sternguard in Razorback be better, as they emphasis the mobility and shooting aspect of the list?

The problem is, C:SMs mobility isnt nessecairily all that great either, and its firepower is far from the most devastating in the game. This is because C:SM is also C:Generalists.

 

In order not to get ones rear-end kicked you need to be able to out do the specialists in one area with strengths in another. If you focus on nothing but speed and firepower youll have Issues with Eldar, if you focus on nothing but CC youll have issues with SWs, Khornates, and BA... as examples/in general.

 

Yes, I agree- TDA in a LR is incredibly overrated, but not incorporating assault units into your army anywhere is going to hurt when you finally do get hit with an assault. And lets face it, theres only so far away you can be on a 4x6.

[thade]

Assault Marines work pretty well and consistently so in two ways:

 

1. Pull the jump packs off and put them in a Rhino. The Rhino rolls up with your other Rhinos and sits a turn during the shooting, then loads out next turn and counter charges whatever hit your tac squads (or charges something else).

 

2. Flying assault troops are exceptionally good homebase defenders. If you have a cluster of objectives on your table side you can have them hang out in the back in hard cover (i.e. out of LOS) then they can counter charge anything that comes back there to mess with whatever other units you have holding those objectives.

 

Assault troops are great on the charge even by themselves (10 guys, 1 base attack + 1 off-hand + 1 for the charge = 30 attacks total), and you can give up two attacks to throw in flame throwers (I don't recommend plasma pistols, but some people like them) which is a nice helping of more hits before you plow in with them. Also, I recommend throwing a PF or TH in there for some hi-odds kills at the end of combat. =) It's also a nice way to deal with ICs (a surprising number of ICs can be insta-gibbed with a PF) and vehicles/walkers.

 

...

 

All that said, assault armies as Codex Marines are very hard at best. Codex marines really shine with shooting,and you'll find that three to four tac squads in Rhinos go a LONG way.

 

For that reason, I switched to the BA codex. The SW codex is also a fair way to get more assault into your army.

[Zynk Kaladin]

If you're going assault marines as a rule of thumb you should have a 10 man squad with a jump chappy, pf, and 2 flamers. This unit loves to rip through infantry and will thank you dearly for loosening their leash for a moment. ^_^ They also are a superb counter charge unit.

 

I wish C:SM assault marines could offer more. Fluff-wise my army loves assault marines (especially the angel wings), but NOO C:SM is sub par in that category... *stares at Blood Angels Codex hungrily* I shall have to cheat on C:SM for a while.

 

I kinda wanna try Hammernators against my friend's wolves but I have a weird suspicion I'd regret it... may just stick to sternguard, then.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I play my codex lists entirely mechanised and very very shooty, the only assault element to them that i bring only to 1750+ is assault terminators w/chaplain.

 

its not necessary to have an assault or counter charge unit to your lower point lists, but as the points go up it helps

 

IMO the only thing in vanilla codex that is worth taking for melee situations are TH/SS termies. assault squads are only alright if they're full squads and usually disappoint

Use your assault elements to hold your gunline from being broken, and nothing does it better than ass terms.

[Wildfire]

shooty units who can handle themselves in assault.

 

You answered your own question in this phrase, I think.

 

A tac squad with a power fist can outshoot an assualty unit, and outfight a shooty unit. It's also fairly tough and reasonably mobile in a rhino. As Mr. Mage says, C:SM is a codex that supports being good at everything. The cost is, of course, that you're not great at anything.

 

Look at it this way. Most codexes have to rely on using thier strengths to win. Marines can simply concentrate on an enemies weaknesses instead.

 

So do I think you need to have assualt squads in your army to be viable? No, I don't. I do think you need to have some combat ability. But you don't need a dedicated assualt unit to accomplish that.

[DarkGuard]

IMO the only thing in vanilla codex that is worth taking for melee situations are TH/SS termies. assault squads are only alright if they're full squads and usually disappoint

Use your assault elements to hold your gunline from being broken, and nothing does it better than ass terms.

 

I do very much agree with this. Assault Squads are typically disappointing and not worth their points value. IMO Sternguard would be better as you get the same amount of attacks but more devastating firepower and special weapons. The Sergeant can more or less take the same weapons.

 

Therefore if you want the Assault element in (and by assault element I mean dedicated squads), you're looking as Assault Terminators, who are slow and therefore need a Land Raider to make them worthwhile, making them at least 450pts overall as well as melta spam.

 

Some good things here, different opinions ranging from them being useful to combat shooty armies who can't handle assault (Tau and Necrons), to focussing on the shooty transports. Please keep it up :)

[waaanial00]

It would appear that you have come to the same conclusion as I did a couple of months ago. At the end of last year I finally settled into a 1500 point list that I thought represented my best chance at making marines competative for me.

 

My playing style doesnt really benefit from initiating many assaults and I tend to clean up squads through the dint of firepower rather than through assault. As such my army looks very odd when listed down due to the fact that the only infantry with more than 1 attack is my Librarian and my 8 Sternguard.

 

I have found though that I tend to still win more games than when I was trying to stuff assault units into my lists. I would include CC scouts as an effective cleaner unit as well as Assault Marines, they have a lot of attacks for what they are. OK so there are armies across the spectrum that can outshoot me however I have yet to face a list that does so to a noticeable level.

 

If all else fails I generally have 2 dreadnoughts to hold back certain attack directions and a bunch of sacrificial Sternguard with Librarian to stand in the way, rapid fire with hellfire, Avenger and then take the charge. By which point there is probably going to be less of the unit attacking me and therefore manageable in assault or able to be killed by the rest of my fire support (Typhoons, Thunderfire, Tacticals).

 

I find Assault Marine lists to be a really odd direction to take marines in. Marines always strike me as assaulting enemies which have been weakened by shooting attacks, therefore having a unit which aims to assault untouched units is a bit different and strange. On the table though each assault based army I have ever taken has fallen foul of other more well rounded lists, as such I tend to aim to counter those and deal with the assault based units through massed shooting.

 

Wan

[Ookami_81]

Being marine NOTHING in your army should be left unsupported, even a 10 vanguard of doom or a 7 Hammernators of Death.

Personnally I love my Assault Marines with flamers and JP chappy, event if they tend to die, even if they kill more in shooting than in assault.

I love them because they are cool, and also because I find their sacrifice usefull: even when stuck in a fight they cannot win, they die usefully, blocking for one turn or two a unit that cannot harm anything more useful for me. And that's the worst scenario (hum, just before the big pie of death turn 1 ^o^). Most of the time they chop, slash, dice, anything weak in CC, and they hold their own even facing Orks. And if they die... well, I don't care too much, they are the immortal Angels of Death that fall from the sky and cut everything badly and bloodymessily with roaring chainswords. Next battle, they are in ! :sweat:

[thade]

It sounds like we more or less all agree here. =) Allow me to sum up.

 

So far as Codex Marines go, assault units are good for counter-charges and homebase defense. Are they necessary? Not really. Any points spent on them would likely be better spent on hardware (vindicators/dakka preds) or another tactical squad.

 

If you *want* to go assault with marines, you'll have a very hard time of it with Codex marines; it's not impossible, but there's a learning curve. You might want to consider the other marine codexes (several of which are much more melee-centric than Astartes proper).

 

In general, no unit in your army will fair well on its own. Even a LR packed with hammernators will go down if it's focus-fired out on it's own. As long as you've got several units in response range to help out, melee units (or any unit really) will endure a long way. It's why marines use their tanks and transports to either porcupine or funnel the enemy.

[Titan87]

In my experience (limited though it is) support is the name of the game with C:SM. If you are going to concentrate on something then you need to be devastatingly good at it, be it Assault (Assault Terminators (Blood Angels and BT especially), Vanguard, Ork Nobz, etc) or Shooting (Sternguard. Guard, Tau (laugh but take a few railguns to the face before any of your weapons are in range :) ).

 

C:SM has units great at each of these TH/SS Termies, or sternguard. However if you focus on one discipline your army will likely end up being very vulnerable, because either the assault units will get to you, or you will get out manuevered, outranged, and outshot.

 

In your case Assault oriented units are needed to blunt the advantages/exploit the weaknesses of whatever enemy you're facing. They can buy you time to reposition, and keep your soft sternguard squads safe and dealing death from a distance.

[DarkGuard]

I think your right here thade, we all agree on the idea of Assault being for support and such. I still think some of us agree to disagree on their inclusion in Space Marine lists.

 

waaanial00, good to hear someone else has come to this conclusion, and that I'm not mad. I tried this out earlier today against Daemons first and then a very assaulty Blood Angels army, with Sternguard and Pedro instead of Assault Marines (Pedro is just for the tournament I'm doing soon, otherwise I'd prefer a Captain and Command Squad). All in all this list was better as the heavy flamers and special ammo, coupled with the other firepower in my army (such as Vindicators) killed a lot of units. I was even able to blunt a Blood Angels assault led by Sanguinor with two Tactical Squads and a Sternguard Squad, thanks to the fact that they caused quite a few wounds by rapid fire rather than assault. The handy thing about Sternguard is that they have the same amount of attacks as Assault Marines, but are amazing at shooting. Add Pedro and they're even better.

 

I do agree with you other guys that nothing should be unsupported in the Marine list, I just feel that Assault units are not really the support needed. I still believe in victory through overwhelming firepower, so I'd use a Vindicator with a Tactical Squad, or support another Tactical Squad with Sternguard etc.

[Giga]

Vanilla marines are a generalist army. Hence, I find they work best when the entire army is made in a generalist way, allowing it to win through strategy and effective exploitation of an opponent's weaknesses.

 

Thus, having an assault specialist unit that can work both as a hammer AND as a counter-attack unit usually goes a long way toward adding to the overall efficiency of a balanced vanilla list.

 

IMHO, the only true assault unit in the vanilla dex are the th/ss termies. They're priced accordingly (since they're an assault specialist in a codex that generally lacks close combat punch), and they can be used in a variety of ways, all while complementing the rest of the dex.

 

Looking at the other options, one can see why th/ss termies are the absolute best option:

 

Assault marines are more of a horde-killing unit, which isn't so shinny since the entire codex already has lots of infantry-killing power. I find they just aren't worth it, seeing as 210 pts and the same FoC slot one can get a squadron of 3 MM/HF speeders. These are invariably better at both infantry and vehicle hunting, AND speeder models look awesome.

 

Vanguard Veterans and Honor Guard are our "for fun" units, really, seeing as they're way too expensive and assault termies do the same job a lot better while costing less.

 

Command squads just aren't meant for close combat. They're only five dudes, and they get too expensive very fast if you try to kit them out for close combat.

 

Dreadnoughts lack the close combat punch and speed of movement to make them truly viable in assault.

 

 

 

 

 

A great way to get some counter-assault power is to have pedro in your lists. His aura effectively makes tactical squads capable of actually winning close combat, and it buffs up sternguard a lot.

[Koremu]

Command squads just aren't meant for close combat. They're only five dudes, and they get too expensive very fast if you try to kit them out for close combat.

Wat?

 

CC Command Squads are awesome, providing you remember they are there to assist the main event - the Captain and his Relic Blade.

[Giga]

Command squads just aren't meant for close combat. They're only five dudes, and they get too expensive very fast if you try to kit them out for close combat.

Wat?

 

CC Command Squads are awesome, providing you remember they are there to assist the main event - the Captain and his Relic Blade.

Nah. They're too expensive for 5 dudes with no invulnerable save and if you start giving them things like storm shields and power fist(s), you're soon throwing their price over 200 points. 5 assault terminators (or even 5 tactical terminators) will invariably do a better job of assisting the same captain.

 

The real power of command squads is their ability to take 4 special weapons and put them to good use.

[Koremu]

Command squads just aren't meant for close combat. They're only five dudes, and they get too expensive very fast if you try to kit them out for close combat.

Wat?

 

CC Command Squads are awesome, providing you remember they are there to assist the main event - the Captain and his Relic Blade.

Nah. They're too expensive for 5 dudes with no invulnerable save and if you start giving them things like storm shields and power fist(s), you're soon throwing their price over 200 points. 5 assault terminators (or even 5 tactical terminators) will invariably do a better job of assisting the same captain.

 

The real power of command squads is their ability to take 4 special weapons and put them to good use.

 

A Command Squad with Champ, Banner, Fist & Shield is 185 points, and is very close to being as durable as Terminators thanks to FNP. Furthermore it doesn't mandate use of a Land Raider, and strikes at Initiative. And you can still add a couple of Flamers.

 

And it doesn't take up an elites slot.

[Giga]

A Command Squad with Champ, Banner, Fist & Shield is 185 points, and is very close to being as durable as Terminators thanks to FNP. Furthermore it doesn't mandate use of a Land Raider, and strikes at Initiative. And you can still add a couple of Flamers.

 

And it doesn't take up an elites slot.

And what, exactly, is that command squad supposed to kill? They don't have enough attacks to kill hordes (if they take flamers they lose attacks, since they have to replace CCWs with them), they don't have enough power attacks to kill MEQ effectively, and a single powerfist with a single storm shield isn't going to do well against MCs and walkers. FNP is sweet, but there are so many things that ignore it, it isn't even funny.

 

In other words: I'd take 5 th/ss termies over that command squad any day.

 

EDIT: Both units also need a land raider transport to make them effective, too. Driving that command squad+captain with relic blade (upwards of 300+ points) in a rhino/razorback just means they'll be footslogging real soon + it'll be wasting their assault potential.

[Koremu]

From experience of using it, you're wrong on both counts. Command Squad in an RB is a perfectly effective counter assault unit. Termis can't do that job because their bulk requires the investment of a Land Raider, which in turn means that the whole army has to be built around them, due to the expense.

 

Also, people rarely shoot the Razorback when there are Vindicators, Predators and Land Speeders closer and in clearer LOS. Target Flood is Good.

 

Oh, and you are wrong about the Flamers too. You can have 1 Veteran with Banner, Fist and Flamer, keeping all the stuff you want to not assign wounds to on one model, and a second Flamer on the guy with a Storm Shield. In neither case do you lose any more CC attacks.

[Ookami_81]

Plus you can put everyone on bike for T +1 and mobility *2 ! More expensive than a Rzb though.

[waaanial00]

Command squad out of a static razorback means they assault. Same goes if the enemy destroy said Razorback in their turn (much more likely if they have it driven towards their lines). I think the assault ramp and open topped vehicles have made people lazy with transports, assaulting out of a Rhino/Razorback is possible and effective with the right tactics.

 

That being said I still hold true that an assault unit is just not required in a Codex Marine list.

 

Wan

[thade]

From experience of using it, you're wrong on both counts. Command Squad in an RB is a perfectly effective counter assault unit. Termis can't do that job because their bulk requires the investment of a Land Raider, which in turn means that the whole army has to be built around them, due to the expense.

 

Also, people rarely shoot the Razorback when there are Vindicators, Predators and Land Speeders closer and in clearer LOS. Target Flood is Good.

 

Oh, and you are wrong about the Flamers too. You can have 1 Veteran with Banner, Fist and Flamer, keeping all the stuff you want to not assign wounds to on one model, and a second Flamer on the guy with a Storm Shield. In neither case do you lose any more CC attacks.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Koremu is right on the money here. You'll have your normal marine gun-line/rhino rush at the head of your army, then behind it will be your command squad (or your assault team, either Rhino-mounted or with Jump Packs). Their purpose is single-fold. If any of your tac units get tangled into an assault, they charge in there too. Naturally they're not large enough to overwhelm what they rush at, but as a *counter* charge unit, they will pack a LOT of pain for whatever just got charged. Leave them parked in their Rhino nearby whatever you think will get charged first. Next turn they can pile out, move, and assault whatever is needed. Don't forget they can charge right into cover with their frag grenades.

[Captain Idaho]

Command squad out of a static razorback means they assault. Same goes if the enemy destroy said Razorback in their turn (much more likely if they have it driven towards their lines). I think the assault ramp and open topped vehicles have made people lazy with transports, assaulting out of a Rhino/Razorback is possible and effective with the right tactics.

 

That being said I still hold true that an assault unit is just not required in a Codex Marine list.

 

Wan

 

I agree on both accounts.

 

IMHO, the only true assault unit in the vanilla dex are the th/ss termies. They're priced accordingly (since they're an assault specialist in a codex that generally lacks close combat punch), and they can be used in a variety of ways, all while complementing the rest of the dex.

 

Looking at the other options, one can see why th/ss termies are the absolute best option:

 

I disagree with this. Honour Guard and Vanguard can be useful and fill a niche TH/SS don't. Both can be transported in something aside from a Landraider, as waaanial00 said above this is not required for entering combat. This saves points.

 

Secondly, TH/SS aren't any better at killing infantry than Honour Guard, not by a long shot! They strike last, so even a 10 squad of Tactical Marines can take down one in assault before they strike. Sure the Honour Guard will lose one as well, but that would be simultaneous combat. Where this matters is towards the end of the game when the squad is reduced in size after some losses. Losing a Terminator to 10 Space Marines hurts alot more when you only have 3 left, as you can end up stuck in that combat for a while for example.

 

Secondly, massed attacks hurt TT/SS more than Honour Guard. What would you do against an Ork army? How useful are those Terminators against any army without big tough targets? Paying 200 odd points on Honour Guard that get wiped out or mis-used is not so painful than when done with Assault Terminators in a Landraider.

 

As an example, greatcrusade08 recently played a game where he alpha-striked a Landraider first turn with a couple of Storms and their Scouts with melta weapons, with dual Thunderfire Cannons blasting the Thunder Hammer Terminators to the Warp with but a single turns shooting. This meant almost half the opponents points in the army was gone before he did anything. If this was Honour Guard in a Rhino/Razorback then the damage would have been considerably less.

 

What they do excel at killing is big tough targets, which is a fine use of the unit and that is their niche. But while you enjoy to shoot enemy infantry whilst your TH/SS do the MC killing, I prefer to shoot dead those MCs whilst my Honour Guard munchs through enemy infantry.

 

Honour Guard are a great bully unit. I have had them churn through an opponents entire Troops selection, including 3 Tactical squads.

 

Basically, what I am saying is the 2 units (plus Vanguard) fill different rolls and this makes them equally valid choices, just to be used in different ways.