Are Assault units always needed?

[DarkGuard]

Some good ideas here, keep it up. ;)

 

I would agree with Koremu here, and feel that each CC unit can have its place in the army, depending on what you're trying to kill etc.

 

TH/SS Terminators in Land Raider are certainly the best melee unit, but when you have the attitude that they are the only unit worth taking for assault then your list because very predictable very fast. Furthermore, that is a large amount of points for 6 or so models.

 

However, Assault Marines have built-in mobility, whereas Honour Guard, Command Squads etc have the ability to take smaller transports.

 

Of course, if your playstyle doesn't require dedicated assault units then that's good too.

[Giga]

From experience of using it, you're wrong on both counts. Command Squad in an RB is a perfectly effective counter assault unit. Termis can't do that job because their bulk requires the investment of a Land Raider, which in turn means that the whole army has to be built around them, due to the expense.

As a man who regularly uses th/ss termies as a counter-assault unit, I say you're very wrong.

 

First off, having a land raider is a great asset to a counter-assault unit because of two things:

 

- a land raider gives the unit an effective 20" charge range, putting it in the middle of your army means that no matter where the enemy hits you you're going to be able to pull off a surgical counter-assault + being a land raider it means most long-range shooting can't even scratch it

 

- a godhammer land raider (my preferred variant) packs a lot of highly reliable long range firepower, which works extremely well in conjunction with a counter-assault unit, meaning you get to shoot all day long while still serving the counter-assault purpose

 

Second, the problem with razorbacks is that they can be reliably popped by just about any anti-tank gun in the game. A foolish opponent might decide that blowing up a vindicator is more important then crippling your command squad+cc HQ, but from my own experience smarter players usually don't make such elementary mistakes.

 

You also need to position your army in such a way that enables your captain+command squad to footslog out of the razorback and assault something (so their threat bubble is about 14" at best), simply because the razorback isn't an assault vehicle.

 

Finally, since we're vanilla, it means there are times when counter-assaulting is pointless (against Tau and IG for example) and we have to move forward and take the fight to the enemy. Transporting your assault specialist unit in a 11 11 10 transport against a proper shooty army means your expensive guys will be footslogging (and getting consequently bombarded with AP3 pieplates) faster then you can read this sentence. In these situations, the LR with termies is better in that it has a lot higher chance of delivering its cargo safely, not to mention ignoring enemy fire.

I disagree with this. Honour Guard and Vanguard can be useful and fill a niche TH/SS don't. Both can be transported in something aside from a Landraider, as waaanial00 said above this is not required for entering combat. This saves points.

A 10 men vanguard squad with a couple storm shields and power fists costs 300+ points. Honor guard cost even more. Putting this unit in a 11 11 10 transport that doesn't even allow them to assault in the same turn it moved is, IMHO, not a point investment but a liability. If you spend tons of points on an assault specialist, then get them a proper transport.

 

As for the honor guard... The problem with them that you fail to notice is that they're designed to be infantry-killers. What's more, they're designed to kill infantry that has little or no armor-ignoring attacks. Their save is nice and all, but they still get decimated by armor-ignoring attacks and AP1/2 stuff (of which there's a considerable amount in 5th edition). That doesn't even take the requirement of actually fielding a chapter master into the equation.

 

Hence, by getting honor guard, you're paying premium points for a unit that does what most of our codex already does better. Think about it; we got access to massed flamers, heavy flamers, heavy bolters, special ammo bolters, tons of regular bolters, and all other sorts of things that can kill infantry. Do you really need an overly expensive infantry-killing specialist there - the specialist that, in assault, will kill the same number of orks as it will tactical marines?

 

TH/SS terminators are better in that they actually fill a niche in a vanilla army. They specialize in killing monstrous creatures, vehicles, multiwound models (tyranid warriors, nobs, ICs, zoanthropes, etc.) and heavy infantry such as MEQ, other terminators, thunderwolf cavalry, etc. They suck against massed attacks, sure, but who cares? We got tons of cheap anti-infantry to deal with those boyz mobz already, why send th/ss termies against them?

 

Having th/ss termies in a LR as a counter-assault unit means you can actually ignore that incoming warptime daemon prince and use your long-range anti-tank to shoot their rhinos and obliterators. And when the prince gets there, you can rely on your th/ss terminators to go out and pop a cap in his ass. These same terminators will likely destroy a squadron of leman russes in a single turn of assault, they will decimate a unit of nobz or tyranid warriors easily, and they will squash almost any enemy IC that gets near them.

 

The secret with TH/SS termies is that they rarely, if ever, have to survive to fight again. You usually want them for a single surgical strike against a designated target. They will go in, apply liberal banhammer, usually wiping out their target and losing a man or two in the process, and that's that, they've served their purpose.

 

Vanguard, honor guard, command squads, tactical terminators, etc. can't fill this niche with nowhere near as much efficiency, no matter how you kit them out or what you transport them in.

[Koremu]

words

Let me know if you're ever in Nottingham and I'll explain with extreme prejudice. ^_^

[Captain Idaho]

As for the honor guard... The problem with them that you fail to notice is that they're designed to be infantry-killers. What's more, they're designed to kill infantry that has little or no armor-ignoring attacks. Their save is nice and all, but they still get decimated by armor-ignoring attacks and AP1/2 stuff (of which there's a considerable amount in 5th edition). That doesn't even take the requirement of actually fielding a chapter master into the equation.

 

That's just it though, I don't see specialising against infantry being a problem at all. The only infantry they cannot reliably beat in assault (include in the equation a Chapter Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield) are:

 

Fiends of Slaanesh, Bloodcrushers, Ravenors, Tyranid Warriors geared for assault, Genestealers, Howling Banshees whilst doomed, Harlequins and that is about it off the top of my head. I put it to you Giga that these units will also beat on Terminators given the amount of saves they force.

 

Most other infantry units either die easy or we have mutally assured destruction. And if my unit is going to die then at least I didn't neccessarily spend 250pts on a Landraider for the pleasure! (not that taking a Landraider is neccesarily a bad thing, just requires a little specialisation).

 

The clever use of a 3 wound character with a 3+ invulnerable means hidden power weapons are not as scary to the unit as you might think.

 

Second, the problem with razorbacks is that they can be reliably popped by just about any anti-tank gun in the game. A foolish opponent might decide that blowing up a vindicator is more important then crippling your command squad+cc HQ, but from my own experience smarter players usually don't make such elementary mistakes.

 

It just isn't that easy though. A 4+ cover save, the armour penetration rules, the transport rules, these things allow a squad in a Razorback or Rhino to survive easily enough to make it into Combat. I do miss the Landraiders and it's ability to deliver units sometimes, but the amount of times I have been opposed by lots of Melta that forces me to hold it back for fear of losing a 250pts vehicle makes me feel like it can be a liability as much as a boon. I don't care if you destroy my Razorback whilst I put my Honour Guard into position.

 

And why would I take a 10 man Honour Guard even more than 10 Terminators? 5 Terminators cost more than 5 Honour Guard, whilst my favourite configuration with an added Relic Blade on the Champion and a Chapter Banner is only 25pts more than the equivilent size Terminator squad, and the Banner does alot more for the squad (beefing the Champion and attached ICs is massive, let alone the rest of the squad).

 

Hence, by getting honor guard, you're paying premium points for a unit that does what most of our codex already does better. Think about it; we got access to massed flamers, heavy flamers, heavy bolters, special ammo bolters, tons of regular bolters, and all other sorts of things that can kill infantry. Do you really need an overly expensive infantry-killing specialist there - the specialist that, in assault, will kill the same number of orks as it will tactical marines?

 

I don't take many flamers etc and my Tacticals are sometimes not firing at infantry, so the Honour Guard are an important niche for me. They probably wouldn't fit into a Salamander themed armylist very well, but that is a case of personal style.

 

TH/SS terminators are better in that they actually fill a niche in a vanilla army. They specialize in killing monstrous creatures, vehicles, multiwound models (tyranid warriors, nobs, ICs, zoanthropes, etc.) and heavy infantry such as MEQ, other terminators, thunderwolf cavalry, etc. They suck against massed attacks, sure, but who cares? We got tons of cheap anti-infantry to deal with those boyz mobz already, why send th/ss termies against them?

 

Having th/ss termies in a LR as a counter-assault unit means you can actually ignore that incoming warptime daemon prince and use your long-range anti-tank to shoot their rhinos and obliterators. And when the prince gets there, you can rely on your th/ss terminators to go out and pop a cap in his ass. These same terminators will likely destroy a squadron of leman russes in a single turn of assault, they will decimate a unit of nobz or tyranid warriors easily, and they will squash almost any enemy IC that gets near them.

 

The secret with TH/SS termies is that they rarely, if ever, have to survive to fight again. You usually want them for a single surgical strike against a designated target. They will go in, apply liberal banhammer, usually wiping out their target and losing a man or two in the process, and that's that, they've served their purpose.

 

Vanguard, honor guard, command squads, tactical terminators, etc. can't fill this niche with nowhere near as much efficiency, no matter how you kit them out or what you transport them in.

 

They do well in their roll, I don't deny it, but that doesn't make them better than other assault units in the army, just different. Our vision of using Space Marines is obviously different (a good thing) and I'm sure we use our units differently. There are times I don't want my Tacticals to shoot to death enemy infantry because I need to use that melta gun on something else. I may want to keep them embarked to protect them a turn longer, or fire the heavy weapon at something, so I have Honour Guard to assault the infantry.

[Giga]

Let me know if you're ever in Nottingham and I'll explain with extreme prejudice. ;)

If only I could. Work and lack of money keeps me firmly stranded here, in Serbia. >_<

 

But anyway, this is a tactics forum. We discuss stuff here so that we, and those who browse these forums searching for tips and tricks, can have it easier to make gameplay decisions. Saying you can explain in practice doesn't help us much here. ;)

That's just it though, I don't see specialising against infantry being a problem at all. The only infantry they cannot reliably beat in assault (include in the equation a Chapter Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield) are:

 

Fiends of Slaanesh, Bloodcrushers, Ravenors, Tyranid Warriors geared for assault, Genestealers, Howling Banshees whilst doomed, Harlequins and that is about it off the top of my head. I put it to you Giga that these units will also beat on Terminators given the amount of saves they force.

They don't really specialize in killing infantry, since they aren't really cost-effective against many types of infantry. For example, they can't beat a proper nobz unit, and nobz bikerz would absolutely squash them. They aren't overly effective against a big boyz mob, either - especially when you compare the point costs of those units.

 

Either way, this effectively means your counter-assault unit can't deal with two extremely competitive infantry units (bloodcrushers and nobz), while also being weak against the mainstay things like genestealers and tyranid warriors.

The clever use of a 3 wound character with a 3+ invulnerable means hidden power weapons are not as scary to the unit as you might think.

What are you talking about? In close combat, the unit and the IC are treated as separate units, meaning the opponent can choose if he's going to use his power weapon on your unit or on your IC. You can only use the IC to absorb wounds from shooting.

And why would I take a 10 man Honour Guard even more than 10 Terminators? 5 Terminators cost more than 5 Honour Guard, whilst my favourite configuration with an added Relic Blade on the Champion and a Chapter Banner is only 25pts more than the equivilent size Terminator squad, and the Banner does alot more for the squad (beefing the Champion and attached ICs is massive, let alone the rest of the squad).

5 terminators are far more powerful then 5 honor guard, and they don't require a chapter master. A big honor guard unit with relic blade and chapter banner costs a whole lot of points for a unit that is very inefficient against anything that isn't MEQ infantry.

I don't take many flamers etc and my Tacticals are sometimes not firing at infantry, so the Honour Guard are an important niche for me.

That's weird. Why wouldn't you want your tacticals to hunt infantry, when pretty much every weapon tacticals have access to is designed to handle infantry? I find my tacticals work a lot better when flaming/rapid firing stuff then when they're around hunting vehicles or monstrous creatures with their one meltagun.

 

Oh well, to each his own.

I don't want my Tacticals to shoot to death enemy infantry because I need to use that melta gun on something else. I may want to keep them embarked to protect them a turn longer, or fire the heavy weapon at something, so I have Honour Guard to assault the infantry.

Again, the honor guard aren't actually going to do too well against infantry. You got a nob bikerz unit turbo-boosting toward ya? You better shoot all your anti-tank into them and pray to emperor they fail their 3+ cover saves, because the honor guard isn't going to be able to deal with them. Bloodcrushers charging? A bunch of BA dreadnoughts incoming? A ton of nid MCs deep striking around you while their pals are fleeting toward ya across the table?

 

Chances are, you're not going to have enough anti-tank/MC to take them all out, and will have to prioritize your shooting. This means some of them will likely hit your lines. This is where TH/SS termies fill the niche - they can reliably take out hard stuff. They aren't going to do well against a boyz mob or a hormagaunt swarm, but who cares, we got plenty of flamers and bolters to mow down infantry.

 

Finally, charging a Tau or IG gunline with razorback/rhino mounted honor guard means you're driving an expensive assault unit in a paper-thin transport, and all it takes is a single stunned/immobilized result to leave them stranded.

[mowglie]

Giga and I had a quite in-depth discussion on counter-assault units in a big army-composition thread a while back. I don't use counter-assault units myself, but I understand Giga's logic, and in this case I agree with him.

 

The standard LR is capable of making its points back while stationary in your deployment zone. It won't do it often, but it'll usually make some back. Then, when the warptime prince hits your line, it can reliably deliver an overwhelming counterassault anywhere along a 40" line across the front of your zone.

 

In contrast, the Razorback will probably get popped, and even if it doesn't it can't move + assault so your command squad or honour guard have to footslog. 14" at best, but more likely a 20" line across the front of your zone.

 

The real question is "what do you need an assault unit for?".

 

Captain Idaho says "TH/SS aren't any better at killing infantry than Honour Guard, not by a long shot!", but I say "why are you assaulting infantry with 300pt Honour Guard in the first place?".

 

What are you assaulting? If it's a Tau gunline, you don't need HG *or* TH/SS. Just about anything in the codex will do. The TH/SS are there to handle stuff that the rest of your army cannot - MCs, heavy walkers, nobz, twcav. HG won't deal with any of those. As an added bonus, they can zoom forward and assault armour against lists that aren't going to come to you. HG are much more likely to get blown out of their transport and have to footslog.

 

That's the crucial question though. What are you assaulting? In the codex list, you should only really be assaulting things you can't shoot. That means either something that's going to outshoot you (and you don't need assault specialists to assault a fire warrior squad!) or something that already got into assault with you (bearing in mind that Giga contends that it's more efficient to sometimes ignore the MC closing with your lines in order to concentrate firepower on other things). Don't spend 300 points on honour guard, 250 points on a command squad, or 450 points on TH/SS when a 100pt scout squad with a PF will do!

 

The TH/SS + Land Raider Giga uses fills a very specific role in his army. The anti-infantry role of your CS/HG imo would be better filled by another unit.

 

That said, I don't play counter-assault units. In the other thread I contended that a sternguard squad with combi-meltas (I play it in a rhino, but drop pod it at your convenience) can engage the vast majority of targets that TH/SS can just as effectively, earlier in the game, and for fewer points, while having the added bonus of being effective against a double-handful of targets that TH/SS are not effective against.

 

To the OP I would say:-

 

No, you do not need assault units, however you may want a counter-assault unit. TH/SS in this role are a popular way of dealing with MCs, Heavy Walkers, TWCav, and Heavy Assault Specialists (Nobz, TWCav), but they are not the only way. Rather than considering assault unit vs shooty unit, consider what targets you would plan to use your hypothetical assault unit against, then consider what else in the codex can also engage those targets, regardless of the method of engagement.

[waaanial00]

They don't really specialize in killing infantry, since they aren't really cost-effective against many types of infantry. For example, they can't beat a proper nobz unit, and nobz bikerz would absolutely squash them. They aren't overly effective against a big boyz mob, either - especially when you compare the point costs of those units.

 

Either way, this effectively means your counter-assault unit can't deal with two extremely competitive infantry units (bloodcrushers and nobz), while also being weak against the mainstay things like genestealers and tyranid warriors.

 

Firstly Nob bikers are not infantry and even a unit of 5 TH terminators has problems with a well equipped biker unit (that will likely be 50% more than them anyway). Ok so TH are instant killing however 1/3 of the wounds you are putting on them are going to be Borked. You are only hitting them 50% as well and they are hitting you more times with more attacks at both I4 and I1. That and generally because of their speed you are not going to be getting the drop on them unless they are already engaged.

 

Put simply using Biker nobs as an example of killing infantry is a really rubbish one. They are about as far removed from normal infantry as you can get and remain one of the most competative and broken assault units (even Thunderwolf Cav cant do the wound allocation trick to that degree).

 

I also dont know where you are getting the idea that they cannot handle standard Nobs from. An equivelent costed unit of nobs to the unit Idaho is proposing is the following

 

6 Nobs - 275

Painboy, 6 Cybork, 5 eavy armour (painboy cant get it), 1 PK, Waagh banner, Bosspole, Trukk

 

Facing off against the following

 

5 HG - 260

Champion with RB, Banner, Razorback

 

So its 1 unit in a AV10 vehicle vs 1 in an AV11

 

The Nobs are not getting a save better than 5+ and no FNP. They are at best attacking simultaneously if they get the charge. There is only 1 PK so they are not going to be butchering the HG and even if they are wound allocation rules to the high heaven they are still going to lose a couple of their number.

 

I am not sure how you think that the Nobs are much better than this unit, size for size. I run Nobs quite a lot and I can tell you that my unit would be much more expensive which means that we start to take into consideration the Chapter master.

 

It would go down to dice at this point (as it always does). However it isnt a done deal for the Nobs. Please prove me wrong though, what Nob builds have you encountered that can easily take 2+ saves at 260 points. Biker nobs as I have said dont count because they are not infantry which is what Idaho has already suggested the HG do well against.

 

Also your point about large boy units is a bit strange, same unit as above vs 30 boys with PK and bosspole (220). Assuming that both units reach the enemy unspoilt it is probably going to mean that the HG die in a protracted fight. Still they will take a shed load of Orks with them, faster than the TH/SS terminators as well because they will be reducing the number of Orks attacking the HG straight away rather than having to incur a whole assault turn before reducing the attacks. This will mean that the gap the HG will win by is likely to be larger therefore more will be killed via fearless wounds.

 

Still I am sure you understand that this event is rather unlikely, a whole unit of 30 boys getting to the HG without suffering a single wound/death. Thats some mighty fine vacuum hammer there.

 

The clever use of a 3 wound character with a 3+ invulnerable means hidden power weapons are not as scary to the unit as you might think.

What are you talking about? In close combat, the unit and the IC are treated as separate units, meaning the opponent can choose if he's going to use his power weapon on your unit or on your IC. You can only use the IC to absorb wounds from shooting.

 

He is talking about locking the "hidden powerfist" in combat with the Chapter master. Once he is in base to base you cannot attack anything but him, and he has a 3++ save just like your Thunderhammers, difference being that they can only kill him and not overspill into the rest of the squad threatening more SS wielding Terminators.

 

Its a perfectly valid tactic, just because you have never heard of it or thought about it doesnt make it unworkable or illogical.

 

Wan

[Giga]

Firstly Nob bikers are not infantry and even a unit of 5 TH terminators has problems with a well equipped biker unit (that will likely be 50% more than them anyway). Ok so TH are instant killing however 1/3 of the wounds you are putting on them are going to be Borked. You are only hitting them 50% as well and they are hitting you more times with more attacks at both I4 and I1. That and generally because of their speed you are not going to be getting the drop on them unless they are already engaged.

Nob bikers are infantry as far as assault is concerned. Apart from the increased toughness granted by their bikes, they work exactly like any infantry in assault. Hence, saying they aren't infantry is wrong.

 

A kitted wound-allocation nob biker unit costs like what, ~500 points without the warboss? 5 th/ss termies cost 200 points. All it takes is a little anti-tank shooting at them to insta-kill 2-3 nobz before assaulting them, and then the th/ss termies are going to be making short work of them. Even if the nobz manage to kill 2-3 termies, the termies killing 2-3 nobz (highly likely) is going to mean they win the combat by a considerable margin, which results in nobz likely turning around and running away, at which point you can just follow them to prevent them from regrouping (if they aren't already at half-strength anyway).

 

Personally, the 5++ invulnerable save they have has never been a problem to me because I usually have a null zone librarian handy in my tournament lists. Hence, I find my th/ss termies make an excellent banhammer unit when it comes to taking out nobz (bikers or footsloggers) and tyranid warriors in single turn.

6 Nobs - 275

Painboy, 6 Cybork, 5 eavy armour (painboy cant get it), 1 PK, Waagh banner, Bosspole, Trukk

I'm afraid I've never seen anyone running a unit like this. Usually people I play against have huge nobz units, accompanied by the warboss, and kitted out for wound allocation... Or biker nobz. Either way, I don't see this as a valid comparison, and this unit would be easily rendered inefficient by anti-tank fire anyway (2 dead nobz and they're already taking leadership tests with pathetic ork leadership), no need to get a dedicated anti-infantry unit to deal with them.

Still I am sure you understand that this event is rather unlikely, a whole unit of 30 boys getting to the HG without suffering a single wound/death. Thats some mighty fine vacuum hammer there.

Well, I dunno how much firepower you're packing in your armies, but I know that, a lot of the time, luck and situation means I can't afford to spread my fire all over the enemy army. I usually have to focus on the most dangerous elements, weakening or destroying them, while ignoring other elements until later turns.

 

Hence, it's actually quite possible that a boyz mob might be reaching my lines (at which point it usually gets fried by combined rapid firing from multiple tac squads, or gets pwned by heavy flamer speeders), especially when there are multiple bigger, faster threats (such as lots of battlewagon nobz or nobz bikers) that I have to deal with first. Having a counter assault unit that can reliably kill stuff like nobz means I have lots of firepower to spare for those boyz mobz. Works just fine for me, really.

He is talking about locking the "hidden powerfist" in combat with the Chapter master. Once he is in base to base you cannot attack anything but him, and he has a 3++ save just like your Thunderhammers, difference being that they can only kill him and not overspill into the rest of the squad threatening more SS wielding Terminators.

 

Its a perfectly valid tactic, just because you have never heard of it or thought about it doesnt make it unworkable or illogical.

No offense, but I'd say it's a pretty dumb tactic. There are two big flaws with it;

 

- I always keep my power fist dudes in the interior of the unit, so when they get assaulted or they assault someone the power fist guy is actually not in base-to-base contact with the enemy. This allows me to pick what I hit with my powerfist guy, based on what the dudes in the front line are in base-to-base contact with.

 

- Relying on a 3++ save to absorb powerfist/thunderhammer attacks is a bad bad idea if you don't have eternal warrior. You have a 33% chance to fail that one powerfist save, which ends in you losing your expensive HQ (a chapter master with a relic blade and storm shield costs 170 pts). In fact, I would love it if my opponents did this and would probably be popping nullzone and trying to land those powerfist attacks on the chapter master anyway.

[waaanial00]

Hmmm I think this might be the last time I reply in this thread as it is getting a little silly.

 

You have now switched to saying that Assault Terminators are only good because you have the heavy fire power to soften up the unit first. However you then suggest that you dont need to use heavy fire power on these units because you have Assault Terminators.

 

You also dont suggest that a unit like HG are good against Orks because they are too expensive, I suggest a comparable unit in terms of Nobs and then you suggest (as I had already said) that the unit would be much bigger. Would the gap not be taken up by heavy weapons which would render such a unit into the dust? Would it not therefore be better to take a unit which doesnt require a Landraider and get more firepower instead? That 250 points goes a long way when it isnt transporting an assault only unit.

 

Also you snuff at the IC with storm shield tactic but its the same mechanism which keeps your Assault Terminators alive, 3++. I laugh at the number of people who suggest that Assault terminators chew through armies, that 3+ save is still fragile otherwise MEQ would be unbeatable without low AP arms. Not that I am suggesting you have said that of course.

 

Still I am sure that this will convince no one about the value of Honour Guard, if you were closed minded about this before hand this isnt going to be opening any minds.

 

This is me avoiding the issue now.

 

Wan

[greatcrusade08]

i think we need to give it up here guys.. theres no arguing with some people.

 

This concerns HG, and tbh if i have any questions regarding this unit Idahos the man i talk to..

 

A whole unit of power weapons and 2+ saves is immense.. sure Pws and Pfs are prevalant now but unless youve a whole boys mob with a PK a fist doesnt worry me, as 5 Hg can chomp through a tac squad pretty quickly.. even then if you lose a couple then youve at least done alot of damage.

things like shooting termies fall before HG due to the intiative and lots of PW attacks...

 

but then this is my opinion, i generally dont rubbish something until ive played it extensively.. i still hear people say scouts are useless (albeit less than a year ago) alot of it is nonsense

[thade]

Just for the record, and I'm just putting this out there:

 

I have wiped entire squads of TH/SS terminators coupled with the Vulkan IC using the following:

- A ten-marine assault squad with a chaplain. (Losses were pretty big, but Combat Tactics = flee + charging back in overwhelmed them with wounds over two turns.)

- My vanguard, with one loss.

- A tac squad's rapid fire volley.

 

All of those Str 8 attacks are great, and 3++ is very, very nice...but volume of shots is too much for them. Something you can do with an assault team or a vanguard that you can't do with terminators is pack that LRC with bodies. Five to six terminators are going to have more trouble then people like to think when they're confronted with twice as many or more marines.

 

I'm not saying the TH/SS crew is all bad; certainly they have their uses too. What I am trying to say here is that Vanguards and Assault teams are hardly obsolete. I'd take either of them over the TH/SS crew any day.

[mowglie]

i think we need to give it up here guys.. theres no arguing with some people.

 

My argument wouldn't be that HG are *bad*, nor that TH/SS are necessarily better, merely that they're better for specifically the purpose that Giga is using them for (as a counter-assault unit lurking behind your lines to take out an opposing assault specialist that has already assaulted you, particularly a MC, a Walker, or a unit of heavy assaut specialists such as Nobz or TWCav).

 

My question - relevant to the topic - is: What are you using HG on that the rest of your army can't handle more efficiently?

 

Idaho suggests the broad category of "infantry" (and I agree with him that generally slightly better there given that they strike at I). If we're looking for efficiency, I would refine that to "Non-power-weapon-wielding infantry with good armour saves".

 

I see three particular problems:

 

• They'll get absoloutely butchered by anything with massed power weapons, especially striking first (Howling Banshees come to mind, maybe Tyranid Warriors, and there's probably something I'm missing out of the BA dex)
  
• They don't ID multiwound T4 models, making e.g. Nobz and especially Nob Bikers uninviting targets.
  
• They won't have a juicy target against hordes of low-quality infantry (180 Orks, though neither will TH/SS for that matter), or Mech (particularly IG/Leafblower - they'll need something else to crack the transport before they devour the tasty insides with much overkill nomnomnom)
  

 

The first two of those are advantages for TH/SS. The third is a wash.

 

If you need to assault a tactical squad off an objective in 1 turn, they're made of pure awesome. Otherwise, I'm looking at other things in the list that are at least as good at taking out "Non-power-weapon-wielding infantry with good armour saves" and (addressing the topic) coming to the conclusion that "No, HG are not always necessary".

 

Thade summed that up on page 1 (and Idaho agreed actually)

 

I think it's important to note that Idaho suggests using the captain to tie up a hidden power weapon (a good plan), not a hidden power fist (a terrible plan!)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I understand as a counter assault unit against something big and bad like a Bloodthirster I would prefer TH/SS Terminators, but the original poster and topic of discussion was broader than that, asking whether we need an assault unit in the army for any reason rather than just counter assault.

 

And on that basis I believe HG make a better all round choice. But then not if your army is geared to flaming infantry etc, as you lack the ability to kill bigger and tougher things with firepower and need to fill the gap with those Terminators! If your army is not, with less obsession with flamers and meltaguns and a more balanced approach, then HG or Vanguard can make better choices.

 

Captain Idaho says "TH/SS aren't any better at killing infantry than Honour Guard, not by a long shot!", but I say "why are you assaulting infantry with 300pt Honour Guard in the first place?".

 

Well, why not?! Apart from them costing 225pts, I can't see any reason why your assault units shouldn't chomp through enemy infantry? Like I said before, if your army doesn't concerntrate on putting a flamer in every Tactical squad and Ironclads with Drop pods and Heavy flamers, there is no quicker way to kill enemy infantry.

 

As an example, in last years GT I wiped the floor with a Vukan Drop pod list, using my Dread and Tacticals with melta guns to kill the Ironclads and the Honour Guard wiping out every troops choice on the board plus Vulkan and his mates. The unit was down to 2 strong plus the Master, but they done the job. As the Honour Guard were dealing with 30 Tacticals plus other stuff, I used the rest of my infantry to gang up on the rest of his army and secure an easy win.

 

A kitted wound-allocation nob biker unit costs like what, ~500 points without the warboss? 5 th/ss termies cost 200 points. All it takes is a little anti-tank shooting at them to insta-kill 2-3 nobz before assaulting them, and then the th/ss termies are going to be making short work of them. Even if the nobz manage to kill 2-3 termies, the termies killing 2-3 nobz (highly likely) is going to mean they win the combat by a considerable margin, which results in nobz likely turning around and running away, at which point you can just follow them to prevent them from regrouping (if they aren't already at half-strength anyway).

 

Personally, the 5++ invulnerable save they have has never been a problem to me because I usually have a null zone librarian handy in my tournament lists. Hence, I find my th/ss termies make an excellent banhammer unit when it comes to taking out nobz (bikers or footsloggers) and tyranid warriors in single turn.

 

But why wouldn't I be able to use my own fire support to weaken them before I charge them with my Honour Guard, just like you would with your Terminators?

 

No offense, but I'd say it's a pretty dumb tactic. There are two big flaws with it;

 

- I always keep my power fist dudes in the interior of the unit, so when they get assaulted or they assault someone the power fist guy is actually not in base-to-base contact with the enemy. This allows me to pick what I hit with my powerfist guy, based on what the dudes in the front line are in base-to-base contact with.

 

- Relying on a 3++ save to absorb powerfist/thunderhammer attacks is a bad bad idea if you don't have eternal warrior. You have a 33% chance to fail that one powerfist save, which ends in you losing your expensive HQ (a chapter master with a relic blade and storm shield costs 170 pts). In fact, I would love it if my opponents did this and would probably be popping nullzone and trying to land those powerfist attacks on the chapter master anyway.

 

Feel free not to use it then, but I have had plenty of success doing this.

 

The 1st flaw you talk of is very situational. I can't remember the last game I played (if ever) that a player could always keep their PF dudes hidden at the back of the unit through the entire game.

 

And you have forgotten an imortant element of the assault here; powerfists strike at I1 and my usual configuration of Honour Guard at full strength (5 + Master) average between 10 and 14 kills against WS & T4 opponents on the charge. Whilst that is great and all, but it also means the powerfist is likely to be dead already. If not (because the unit is a 20+ strong unit of Ork Boyz) then losing the Master won't bother me as I already won the combat heavily.

 

That's weird. Why wouldn't you want your tacticals to hunt infantry, when pretty much every weapon tacticals have access to is designed to handle infantry? I find my tacticals work a lot better when flaming/rapid firing stuff then when they're around hunting vehicles or monstrous creatures with their one meltagun.

 

Oh well, to each his own.

 

I think this is a great quote to leave this thread on. I enjoy my Tacticals having either a melta gun or plasma gun, so they are a great option to use against enemy vehicles and MCs. They already have bolters so I can still use them against infantry too if I need to.

 

It's not that I use them to hunt things, rather I just them to bolster my firepower in particular ways. They can support my anti-tank with their Melta gun or Lascannons, or support my HG with their bolters, all in the same game if neccessary. You could say I am going for a "Codex" approach, rather than using them as specialist anti-infantry.

 

And you are right, each to his or her own. I would never say HG were head and shoulders above Terminators, rather operate at different spectrums of the army. Whilst I do believe HG are better in an all round use, that doesn't make them better than Terminators.

 

Incidently, Vanguard to me are the happy medium. Trading offensive power for durability (Storm Shields) and value for points for speed (Jump Packs).

[thade]

My question - relevant to the topic - is: What are you using HG on that the rest of your army can't handle more efficiently?

 

2+ saves. Ld 10. Several Str 6 init 4 attacks. They are a unit I can risk because they can't score, and they are a unit that will effortlessly mow through any other unit in the game that's not kitted out for melee. They also look awesome. Not to mention that, while a ten-strong tac marine squad could probably rapid-fire the same target out of the fight, that's a scoring unit I'm committing to that purpose AND they just aren't as psychologically scary to opponents as a unit full of power weapons. Not to mention I can much more effectively counter charge a unit with my honor guard than I can another tac squad. Also, don't forget that terminators can't perform a sweeping advance. The honor guard can.

 

People at my store pay a lot of attention to my vanguard; so much so that I've used this to sneak other units into advantageous positions while they're focusing on bringing the vanguard down. I suppose that's my answer to your question. <3

[Giga]

@ waaanial00 and greatcrusade08

 

mowglie's latest post has pretty much explained what I'm trying to argue here, albeit a lot more eloquently then me. All I'm trying to say is that HG just don't fit a vanilla army nearly as well as th/ss termies do, and this is especially true in the counter-assault role.

 

Of course, I will say the same thing I always say about these dilemmas: if something works for you, you should use it. If HG work wonders in your battles, then you should absolutely stick with them and ignore advice from people who obviously play in different metagames (seeing as my own metagame is obviously very different from yours, I think this would mean me).

I think it's important to note that Idaho suggests using the captain to tie up a hidden power weapon (a good plan), not a hidden power fist (a terrible plan!)

If this is the case, I agree 100%. Sadly, in my local metagame people rarely, if ever, equip their squads with power weapons. There's a fist tucked in there in almost every squad, which goes a long way toward undermining the efficiency of badass non-eternal warrior HQs.

I understand as a counter assault unit against something big and bad like a Bloodthirster I would prefer TH/SS Terminators

Not a good idea actually. Bloodthirsters have 4++ save and are WS10, meaning the termies hit them on 5+, meaning it's likely the termies aren't going to be able to down him and may even lose the combat in subsequent turns.

 

Bloodthirsters are best killed through the combination of nullzone and low AP weps, or by forcing lots of saves on them (via sternguard poisoned ammo, ofc!). ;)

But why wouldn't I be able to use my own fire support to weaken them before I charge them with my Honour Guard, just like you would with your Terminators?

Because you need to weaken them a lot more if you want your HG to be able to kill them. Meaning you need to dedicate the firepower you would otherwise spend on other elements of his army.

 

With termies, all I have to do is kill 2-3 nobz, and then I can safely charge them with the termies and be pretty sure that they're going to hammer them into the ground.

 

HG need to hit on 4+, wound on 4+ (or on 5+, against nob bikerz), and then those nobz get to play the wound-allocation game with their 5++ saves. The HG are obviously less effective, and unlike the terminators they won't live once the nobz start hitting them on 3+ with their powerklaws.

 

The fact of the matter is; the termies are more reliable when it comes to killing hard stuff. This is their niche, and no other thing in the vanilla dex is nowhere near as reliable at this job. HG can kill infantry, but that's a job plenty of other things in our codex can do just as well or even better.

And you have forgotten an imortant element of the assault here; powerfists strike at I1 and my usual configuration of Honour Guard at full strength (5 + Master) average between 10 and 14 kills against WS & T4 opponents on the charge. Whilst that is great and all, but it also means the powerfist is likely to be dead already. If not (because the unit is a 20+ strong unit of Ork Boyz) then losing the Master won't bother me as I already won the combat heavily.

Is losing a 170 pts HQ worth killing 10 boyz (which is statistically as much as you will kill with that loadout, provided you got a chapter banner)?

 

But anyway, the same kill ratio can be achieved with th/ss termies+HQ, for fewer points. ALL while remaining capable of effectively taking out monstrous creatures, walkers, and vehicles as well.

[Captain Idaho]

Well the 2 Relic blades go a long way to even the odds against T4 models. I can must 5 on each of the Champion and Master, at WS 5 & 6 respectively. Against Nobz I still hit on a 4+ (Waaagh Banner ;) ) with 5 of those attacks, but at least I wound on 2+ still (3+ against Bikers).

 

Anyway, I have used just a single Tactical squad's shooting plus the pistols of the squad in the past to weaken a unit of Nobz, before a highly successful charge from the HG, losing but 2 models and breaking the unit under half strength. That is a win to me.

 

In the future I might not be so lucky, but then I have changed my list enough so now I have more firepower than ever to weaken said Nobz.

 

Of course, I will say the same thing I always say about these dilemmas: if something works for you, you should use it. If HG work wonders in your battles, then you should absolutely stick with them and ignore advice from people who obviously play in different metagames (seeing as my own metagame is obviously very different from yours, I think this would mean me).

 

You are right of course. Very gracious of you. :D

[Giga]

Anyway, I have used just a single Tactical squad's shooting plus the pistols of the squad in the past to weaken a unit of Nobz, before a highly successful charge from the HG, losing but 2 models and breaking the unit under half strength. That is a win to me.

You were very, very lucky.

 

A 10 men tactical squad with a meltagun gets 17 bolter shots (provided the sergeant has a bolter, and the heavy weapon guy shoots his bolt pistols). That translates into 11.4 hits, which in turn translates into 5.7 wounds. Nobz get 4+ armor save, followed by FNP save against these wounds. This ultimately translates into 1.425 inflicted wounds on the nobz. The meltagun isn't going to kill a single nob because a half-competent ork player would use his warboss to absorb the str8 shot anyway.

 

Against nob bikerz, the odds are even worse because not only do they have T5, they are also likely to have a 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting. Another problem with nob bikerz is that they have mobility and an 18" charge range. This means it's easy for them to avoid being assaulted by your HG (seeing as HG in razorback have an effective 14" charge range, so the ork player can just maneuver around them).

 

In other words; relying on tactical squad rapid firing to weaken a kitted out unit of nobz isn't exactly something I would recommend tactically.

[mowglie]

Yeah I understand as a counter assault unit against something big and bad like a Bloodthirster I would prefer TH/SS Terminators, but the original poster and topic of discussion was broader than that, asking whether we need an assault unit in the army for any reason rather than just counter assault.

 

And on that basis I believe HG make a better all round choice. But then not if your army is geared to flaming infantry etc, as you lack the ability to kill bigger and tougher things with firepower and need to fill the gap with those Terminators! If your army is not, with less obsession with flamers and meltaguns and a more balanced approach, then HG or Vanguard can make better choices.

 

Yay! That sounds an awful lot like us agreeing to me :D

 

To the OP again: No, you don't need assault units. Yes you can take assault units. However, have a good think about what you're using them for, and pick the right unit to fill the role you need.

 

I think probably the issue you were having with your assault squad is that it's not filling a hole in your list that something else can't fill better. If you throw an assault squad out unsupported without a particular purpose in mind, it won't really have much of an impact on the field.

 

And I'll bow out there, I think. *hugs*

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Who needs assault units? use sternguard, or use more of them :D ^_^

 

and yes the only assault element worth its weight in the codex is TH/SS termies. everything else is inferior, or a gimmick. and thats it

[Ookami_81]

Excatly ! Filling a hole is the key.

For all I've read seems to resume to: "shoot to death what's good in CC, assault to death what's good at shooting".

You can apply this to your entire army list if you know what you'll encounter: if Orks or Chaos/Daemons, better having a heavy shooting army. Quite the opposite if it's Tau.

If you're trying to make a all coming army, you have indeed the choice of not having assaulty elements in your army.

BUT it depends firts and foremost on your playstyle. I like to be mobile, and I often find useful to use assaulty elements, and not only in the counter-charge role. My most encoutered xeno enemy is Ork. And trust me the guy love his Nobz, the bastards have their lot of PA helmet on their spiky backs. Even in 500 pts he has 5 to seven Nobz, some with PK. He regularly, on bigger lists, plays mech Ork style KoS. And there my assault marines are very usefull.

While my firebase is very busy shooting Dreads and/or Nobz and their transports, they tend to neglect basic boyz and their transports, cause you can't shoot everything effisciently.

For these guys I use my troops and my assault team. Favorite tactics:

- Shooting mobs with bikes, kiting, and then assaulting with regular assault marines, with chappy and PF sergeant. Then the boyz feel the pain of being fearless.

- Assaulting full transports, krak genading / melta bombing / Pfisting them once they are encircled with JP marines: booom, no passengers alive ! Ok I do that also with bikes, but I like the idea of the green savages exiting of their smoking burning truk to find at the first sunray a chainsword to cut them down.

 

In every game or so I had my assault component dead at the end. But they rarely, very rarely, die for nothing. They don't have the glorious keyrole to destroy main killing units, but they do a good part of the rest. Oh, and yeah, they're not scoring, so I can sacrifice them instead of a more useful bike or tact unit.

[greatcrusade08]

as Giga says its all about what suits you.. too often i see people saying like above that TH/SS termies are the only assault unit that matters... ummm i know alot of things that can take them down. not only that you then have to factor in a good enough delivery system.

i had a t-fire kill three in one turn, massed fire kills termies and in cc, anything with massed attacks and a few Pws will do the job, lets face it tak the unit down to one or two modesl and its no longer effective.

 

my fave assault unit is khan, chappy and ten ccw scouts, there isnt much this unit cant kill, and as its outflanking i have a potential 12" threat zone either side of the board.

[Ookami_81]

as Giga says its all about what suits you.. too often i see people saying like above that TH/SS termies are the only assault unit that matters... ummm i know alot of things that can take them down. not only that you then have to factor in a good enough delivery system.

i had a t-fire kill three in one turn, massed fire kills termies and in cc, anything with massed attacks and a few Pws will do the job, lets face it tak the unit down to one or two modesl and its no longer effective.

 

my fave assault unit is khan, chappy and ten ccw scouts, there isnt much this unit cant kill, and as its outflanking i have a potential 12" threat zone either side of the board.

 

Indeed, they are more mobile than regular PA guys with the scout rule, they flank and furious charge with Khan, re-roll to hit with chappy, and both IC have nice weapons for bad guys. Only problem is they are fearless, and scouts are not that strong in CC. If you don't charge, you'll suffer. But it's a nice unit ! ;)

[DarkGuard]

Thanks again everyone for your input. This has been a very informative thread, and I think I have learnt a lot from it. I still feel that focussing on mobility and firepower is a good way to go around a Marine list, but I also believe that in the right lists Assault units have their place. I do love some assault units, like Assault Marines, but at the moment they don't have a place in my list, so they are being left out for the time being. Thank you again everyone, and hopefully the ideas in here will help improve my list and tabletop performance.

[Giga]

too often i see people saying like above that TH/SS termies are the only assault unit that matters... ummm i know alot of things that can take them down. not only that you then have to factor in a good enough delivery system.

It's not about them being possible to take down. Everything in 40k can die. It's that th/ss termies fill an important niche and can be relied upon to bring down the hammer on a particular point in an opponent's army. They don't have to survive the battle. All they have to do is enable you to better distribute your overall damage-dealing potential.

 

A lot of people when using th/ss termies feel they should be the mainstay of an army, moving around from enemy unit to enemy unit, killing everything, when in reality they don't really work well this way because they tend to suffer casualties in each combat.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Giga: Well actually Honour Guard are easily equal to Nobz in assault. They strike before them and my preferred unit + Master has 20 attacks on the charge hitting on 4+ and wouding on 4+, 5 attacks likely hitting on 4+ and wounding on a 2+ and 5 attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+.

 

You can try and math hammer that if you like (don't really do it myself) but my experience tells me they generally do between 7 - 9 wounds against Ork Nobz. Combine that with a bit of softening up firepower and you can really hurt the unit. Funnily enough, if a player uses the wound allocation rules to his favour in shooting, you will find that the power weapon hits end up taking whole models off anyway.

 

As for Nobz bikers, well they are alot more expensive, so if I can shoot then charge them, or charge them then shoot them I would be happy, especially if I only sacrificed my Honour Guard to do it (being just 225pts + 170pts for a Master vs 100+ for a Warboss and like 400pts for a Nobz biker squad).