Are Assault units always needed?

[Gaz1858]

Idaho's Honour Guard unit are killers, been on the reciving end of one of theyre charges and im sure they took out my TH/SS termies if i remember correctly.

 

Me, im having 6 dreads in my army. Theyll fill my firepower and CC ability lol. 1 Venerable with MM, 2 Ironclads, 2 Dreads with TllC and one Dread with AC. All will have DCCW.

[greatcrusade08]

Idaho's Honour Guard unit are killers, been on the reciving end of one of theyre charges and im sure they took out my TH/SS termies if i remember correctly.

 

Me, im having 6 dreads in my army. Theyll fill my firepower and CC ability lol. 1 Venerable with MM, 2 Ironclads, 2 Dreads with TllC and one Dread with AC. All will have DCCW.

 

i didnt think it would be long... thats gunna be awesome... look forward to avoiding it next ultra-meet ;)

[mowglie]

I'll math-hammer it for you if you like. I take a perverse delight in it ;)

 

What does your master have? Relic blade and something else? Honour guard have 5 guys, banner, one relic blade?

[Captain Idaho]

I'll math-hammer it for you if you like. I take a perverse delight in it ;)

 

What does your master have? Relic blade and something else? Honour guard have 5 guys, banner, one relic blade?

 

Hope it isn't a Emperor's Children type of perverse delight in it ;)

 

You can if you like, though I usually use experience-hammer for it ;)

 

Squad is a Master with Relic blade (of course!), a Chapter Champion with Relic Blade and 4 guys with pistol and power weapons, all rounded up with a Chapter Banner. Charging.

[mowglie]

Assumptions:-

 

Marine player gets to assault (arguably tenuous in the case of the HG, but nvm)

No wounds pre-combat

 

This example is arguably biased towards the honour guard, as I am not considering the effect of transports, yet still assuming that both HG and TH/SS get the assault. The HG cost significantly more points than the TH/SS

 

Orkz consist of: (about 650 points)

 

10 models + boss

Banner, FNP (everything ignores it though), 5+ invuln

11 wound allocation "buckets" (precise combinations aren't important here, hence the approx. points figure)

Boss + 2 have PKs

 

Honour Guard consists of:-

 

155 - Master (Relic Blade)

225 - Honour Guard (5 models, Banner, Relic Blade)

= 375 Points.

 

TH/SS consists of:-

 

200 - TH/SS Terminators (5 models)

 

HG vs Orks:-

 

At I5: 5 attacks, 10/3 hits, 20/9 wounds, 40/27 = 1.48 unsaved wounds on the nobz.

At I4: 5 attacks, 5/2 hits, 10/6 wounds, 20/18 = 1.11 unsaved wounds on the nobz.

At I4: 20 attacks, 20/2 hits, 20/6 wounds, 40/18 = 2.22 unsaved wounds on the nobz.

 

4.81 unsaved wounds. no orks removed. (though as Gaz says, that would fairly rip apart a TH/SS squad!) (Idaho suggests the champion should be fighting the Warboss to take advantage of hit/wound rerolls. Might come back and fix that later)

 

At I3: 24 attacks, 48/3 hits, 48/6 wounds, 48/36 = 1.33 unsaved wounds on the HG

At I1: 5 attacks (Warboss vs CM probably), 5/2 hits, 25/12 wounds, 25/24 = 1.04 unsaved wounds on the CM (ID)

At I1: 6 attacks (2x PK vs HG), 6/2 hits, 30/12 wounds, 30/12 = 2.5 unsaved wounds

 

CM plus 2-3 HG removed.

 

TH/SS vs Orks:-

 

At I3: 24 attacks, 24/2 hits, 24/4 wounds, 24/24 = 1 unsaved wound

 

One terminator removed

 

At I1: 12 attacks (TH/SS vs Orkz), 12/2 hits, 60/12 wounds, 120/36 = 3.33 unsaved wounds on the Orks (ID)

At I1: 11 attacks (Warboss and 2x PK vs HG), 22/3 hits, 110/18 wounds, 110/54 = 2.03 unsaved wounds on the terminators

 

Three terminators removed.

 

In this (albeit limited example):-

• 375 points of CM + Honour Guard kill on average 0 nob bikers
  
• 200 points of TH/SS terminator kill on average 3 nob bikers
  

 

*edit* 4 HG get 20 attacks, not 16!

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting but some important problems.

 

4x HG have 20 attacks on the charge.

 

I would put the CM agains the Nobz and the Champion against the Warboss, to take advantage of the re-rolls to hit and wound. Better odds of winning hitting Nobz with the CM.

 

And like I said I often do some shooting prior to assaulting, meaning I could often get to remove whole models anyway as many of them could have a wound on them already that way ;)

[Giga]

As mowglie has demonstrated, the HG+master are going to fare real bad against a unit of nob bikerz. The th/ss termies are doing far better as they not only kill 3 nobz, they also win combat by a 2 wounds difference, meaning the nobz then need to take a leadership test at a -2 modifier. The HG+chapter master also cost almost twice as much as the th/ss termies.

And like I said I often do some shooting prior to assaulting, meaning I could often get to remove whole models anyway as many of them could have a wound on them already that way

Well, we can apply the same logic with th/ss terminators too. I don't know the mathhammer for it, I'm quite positive that the th/ss termies are going to do even better then HG, simply because there will be more of them left alive to swing their hammers (due to there being fewer nobz to hit them).

 

Another thing that could be taken into consideration is the NULLZONE psychic power, which is one of those things I always have with me when playing all-comers lists. I don't know the exact math, but I'd argue the th/ss termies benefit a lot more from it when fighting things like nobz.

[Captain Idaho]

Well lets not take include Null Zone in either equation as we can both have it.

 

As mowglie has demonstrated, the HG+master are going to fare real bad against a unit of nob bikerz. The th/ss termies are doing far better as they not only kill 3 nobz, they also win combat by a 2 wounds difference, meaning the nobz then need to take a leadership test at a -2 modifier. The HG+chapter master also cost almost twice as much as the th/ss termies.

 

Granted, but then against non-Biker Nobz the HG do alot better. I can never agree with Math-hammer, because you can't get 1.63456 wounds, only whole wounds. Also, it doesn't take into account my bolt pistol shots before going in. According to Math-hammer I can't score any wounds with 5 bolt pistols and those 17 bolter shots you referred to earlier, nor the melta gun wounding the Warboss. That does even up the odds nicely and a single Tactical squads fire is not breaking my army.

 

I have done it before, and lost a mere 2 HG in the return. As I struck prior to the Orks I was able to kill a further 20 Ork boyz and still have survivers to kill a further 12 Boyz. Those Terminators couldn't do that.

 

Also, where is the HQ choice with the Terminators?! It might not accompany them but you still have to pay points for it, so I won't be paying more points in my army than you would, just using my characters differently.

[Giga]

Granted, but then against non-Biker Nobz the HG do alot better. I can never agree with Math-hammer, because you can't get 1.63456 wounds, only whole wounds. Also, it doesn't take into account my bolt pistol shots before going in. According to Math-hammer I can't score any wounds with 5 bolt pistols and those 17 bolter shots you referred to earlier, nor the melta gun wounding the Warboss. That does even up the odds nicely and a single Tactical squads fire is not breaking my army.

It's a double-edged sword. Mathhammer-wise, HG might do better against standard nobz, but then there's the problem of those nobz being mechanized, often riding in a battlewagon. This means you have to take their transport out first, which lessens the amount of firepower you can pour into them before you assault them. It also increases the chance that they will pull off an assault before you can counter-assault them (because they're riding in an AV14 open topped transport, enabling them to assault as if from a land raider). With nob bikerz at least you can start shooting at them from turn 1.

I have done it before, and lost a mere 2 HG in the return. As I struck prior to the Orks I was able to kill a further 20 Ork boyz and still have survivers to kill a further 12 Boyz. Those Terminators couldn't do that.

Sorry, but lucky extremes don't count. I had situations where my th/ss terminators were slaughtered by necron warriors, and other situations where my combat squadded tac squad killed a healthy lysander (who assaulted them). I also had situations where my th/ss termies were assaulted by a full unit of zerkers, and ended up killing them all without losing a single termy. These things happen extremely rarely, and hence aren't tactically reliable. On this forum, we base our decisions and arguments on tactics, not on those rare occasions when we get lucky. <_<

Also, where is the HQ choice with the Terminators?! It might not accompany them but you still have to pay points for it, so I won't be paying more points in my army than you would, just using my characters differently.

Well, the thing with the HQ is that I'm actually at a big advantage there. I can take an HQ that massively boosts my th/ss termies (and the rest of my army), such as Vulkan, Cassius, Pedro, Shrike, a librarian with nullzone, etc.

 

You, on the other hand, get to pick between a generic chapter master, pedro, and calgar. Out of those, I'd say Pedro is the only cost-effective one.

[vorkung]

This example is arguably biased towards the honour guard, as I am not considering the effect of transports, yet still assuming that both HG and TH/SS get the assault.

 

So far I have yet to see how TH/SS termies function well without a Land Raider transport. I think worth a mention is that HG can still function reasonably well even without a Landraider (i.e in a Rhino or Razorback).

[Grey Mage]

See, and I think this is kinda silly... you shouldnt be assaulting nob bikerz. It should never be an issue, because you should have already killed them via good allocation of shooting resources. You should be finishing them off.

 

The only reason that TH+SS TDA pulls ahead against Nobz is the 2 wounds, against most enemy units theyll be inferior due to a lower number of attacks. In the above example, that could just as easily be 5 dead Nobz from friendly fire support having taken a wound off of half a dozen of them- something that the TH+SS TDA could not capitalize on.

 

A full squad of bikerz with a warboss costs around 750pts with a painboy and a good sprikling of upgrades. 750pts is a nice Dreadnaught, a pair of Vindicators, and a pair of PG+PC Tacticals.

 

A pair of Vindis shooting to open them up and see what you can get. Should take out around 4-5 bikerz, follwed up by tactical squads firing.. this is at 19-24" range. Even with 3+ cover save your putting wounds on another 5ish nobz. If they move in the next turn- even turboboosting your going to finish them off. Anything left is well within the capability of a standard dreadnaught to finish off in the assault phase. All of these units are easily incorporated into a gunline list, none of them are primarily assault units...

 

And you know what? Theyll take on your TH+SS TDA or your Honor Gaurd, or both. Start including landraiders you say? Then lets see those Landspeeders with MMs and the sprinkling of Lascannons arrayed in a balanced list come into play too....

 

Uber-units are death traps when your opponent knows how to play their own armies strengths against them.

[waaanial00]

I did say I wouldnt reply and I wont about the differences between HG and TH/SS terminators (man of my word), however I will say something about those of you who are having issues with Nob bikers getting 3+ cover saves. 100 point investment (though it may cost you more in your pocket and in blood), the thunderfire cannon.

 

Tremor shells stop them from turbo boosting, it also makes them take dangerous terrain tests. So if you know you are going against these evil sons of mothers, get a thunderfire. Ork ranged shooting being what it is, the only real fear you have about it being killed is from Lootas. It effectively slows the unit down by half, reduces their cover save by 1, possibly puts wounds on models the movement after you hit them with it and you dont actually have to wound them for it to take effect!

 

Its a mobile bike armies nightmare and whilst the nobs still get their 4+ cover save its still fun to watch them move slower than trukks and kill themselves by rolling 1's (unit size of 10 means you should be getting 1 maybe 2 per movement turn ;))

 

Wan

[Giga]

So far I have yet to see how TH/SS termies function well without a Land Raider transport. I think worth a mention is that HG can still function reasonably well even without a Landraider (i.e in a Rhino or Razorback).

Having 10 footslogging assault terminators in a shrike list is a valid tactic and one hell of a psychologically-scary unit. Especially against orks. :wub:

 

But really, having a LR is actually a big bonus in my book, especially if it's of the godhammer variant. Mine tends to kill one or two nobz per turn. :(

The only reason that TH+SS TDA pulls ahead against Nobz is the 2 wounds, against most enemy units theyll be inferior due to a lower number of attacks. In the above example, that could just as easily be 5 dead Nobz from friendly fire support having taken a wound off of half a dozen of them- something that the TH+SS TDA could not capitalize on.

Th/ss don't need to capitalize on models that have taken single wounds, because the th/ss can just insta-kill them, making the wound-allocation abuse nobz units have utterly useless.

 

Also, the idea that they'll be inferior due to a lower number of attacks is again wrong. How will the HG+master fare against the vast majority of monstrous creatures and walkers out there? Wanna do a mathammer of a trygon vs honor guard? A nurgle daemon prince with warptime vs honor guard? One of the new blood angels dreadnoughts with those crazy claw thingies? Against a defiler or a soul grinder?

 

Sure, you can say that MCs and walkers should be shot down and shouldn't even reach your lines... But really, there are entire army builds that enable the enemy to throw a lot of killy stuff in your face as early as turn 2 (just look at the new BA and all those flying dreads and fast vehicles), and you often can't prevent this even when you get lucky shooting dice. At these times, you have to prioritize, and you need to be able to take out (or at least lock down) enemy units efficiently.

100 point investment (though it may cost you more in your pocket and in blood), the thunderfire cannon.

The main reason why I don't wanna buy it is that it's such a screwed up metal model. I hate the idea of lugging that thing around. >_<

 

One day, I just might convert one.

[greatcrusade08]

100 point investment (though it may cost you more in your pocket and in blood), the thunderfire cannon.

The main reason why I don't wanna buy it is that it's such a screwed up metal model. I hate the idea of lugging that thing around. >_<

 

One day, I just might convert one.

 

Or two :wub:

[Giga]

Or two :wub:

Hopefully. The painting/converting part of the hobby has been suffering a lot since I started working and gotten myself a new girlfriend, and I'm still stuck converting a pair of rifleman dreads. After that, I just might be getting to the thunderfire cannons. :(

[mowglie]

See, and I think this is kinda silly... you shouldnt be assaulting nob bikerz. It should never be an issue, because you should have already killed them via good allocation of shooting resources. You should be finishing them off.

 

Totally agree. It is kind of silly. The math-hammer was very limited, looking at a single case, and more for my benefit than anything else. I mean, for starters we should be asking how a footslogging squad of HG or TH/SS is getting the assault vs the bikers, that's pretty bad play from the Ork player! Obviously the correct way to deal with an unwounded unit of nob bikers isn't to assault it! I hear they don't like Vindicator templates for starters... But...

 

In the above example, that could just as easily be 5 dead Nobz from friendly fire support having taken a wound off of half a dozen of them- something that the TH+SS TDA could not capitalize on.

 

There, I do not agree. You need on average 27 bolter shots to put a single wound on Nob Bikers. In order for the HG to be removing whole models from the get-go, you'd need to have fired over ~300 shots before charging. The idea that you can "soften them up" with small arms fire before assaulting them doesn't really bear out in practise. You can ID entire models with anti-tank fire (probably your best option), but then the TH/SS still have their ID-ing advantage.

 

@Idaho: Quite right, 20 attacks on the charge. I'll go fix that. Math is only good when it's right lol! You might get a handful more wounds with the champion on the Warboss. Might come back and do that later. I don't really get your "can't agree with math-hammer" stance. If you do more wounds than the math says, you were lucky. "I'm going to get lucky" isn't a very good strategy! 22 bolter shots + 1 MG shot puts one wound on the warboss. Doesn't go very far towards evening things up.

 

@Giga: I didn't do combat resolution because I don't have the book in front of me. If you ID a 3-wound model, is that 3 wounds caused? If so, yeah the HG lose combat by ~1 wound, the TH/SS win combat by ~2 wounds.

[greatcrusade08]

I also dont agree with math hammer.. its basically a mathematical premise based on waht should happen on an average basis...

 

well ive never had an average game.. i rarely roll what mathammer tells me i should have rolled...

so whilst its a useful tool for some, to base arguments off it IMO is silly

[Giga]

@Giga: I didn't do combat resolution because I don't have the book in front of me. If you ID a 3-wound model, is that 3 wounds caused? If so, yeah the HG lose combat by ~1 wound, the TH/SS win combat by ~2 wounds.

Yepp. Combat resolution is done with the number of wounds you cause. Hence, ID-ing multiwound models actually is a great way to win combat. ;)

 

If it wasn't like that, it would be near impossible to win combat against multiple monstrous creatures.

I also dont agree with math hammer.. its basically a mathematical premise based on waht should happen on an average basis...

 

well ive never had an average game.. i rarely roll what mathammer tells me i should have rolled...

so whilst its a useful tool for some, to base arguments off it IMO is silly

Well, not really. Mathhammer is pretty abstract, yes, but it gives you a very real understanding of what to expect when you do certain things.

 

A simple example; if you have 3 multimelta attack bikes, mathhammer teaches you that, chances are, one of those bikes is going to miss every time they shoot while two are going to hit. This gives you a good understanding of what to expect from your mm AB squadron + it enables you to have a clear perspective of when your luck is up and when you're unlucky.

 

For instance, if I see I'm consistently missing 2 out of 3 mm shots with my AB squadron, then that calls for a change in tactics. Likewise, if I see I'm scoring 3 hits every time, then that's a sign that I should play a bit more recklessly with them, expecting them to do more then they statistically should.

[thade]

I also dont agree with math hammer.. its basically a mathematical premise based on waht should happen on an average basis...

 

well ive never had an average game.. i rarely roll what mathammer tells me i should have rolled...

so whilst its a useful tool for some, to base arguments off it IMO is silly

 

I agree with gc08 here. Again, I've killed TH/SS teams with my rapid fire and vanilla assaults squads. I mass a ton of wounds on them, they're bound to roll 1s...and those silly terminators are going on Init 1, so if they roll 3 or 4 ones (which isn't unlikely when they have to make 15 saves) then hey...they're gone and they did: nothing. Whenever I see Mathhammer it's "this unit vs that unit" and fails to take into account table set up, what other things in each army each opponent has to worry about, relative locations/mobility, and probably a dozen other factors each of us could think of.

 

Not only is "average" a terrible statistic (and will only pan out for you if you run the same list for a few hundred games), but it fails to take into account the psychological impact on your opponent that varying units in your army have. Some things just look scary to other players.

[Captain Idaho]

People have said almost everything for my viewpoint now. :ph34r:

 

@ Giga: It certainly wasn't a lucky result when I carved through multiple Ork Mobz with the HG. They were 4 strong including the Master when they charged the 20strong Ork mob, shooting bolt pistols first then killing a whole bunch before combat resolution did for a whole bunch more (fearless you see). I finished them the next turn and a turn later saved the remnants of a 5 Man Tactical squad by charging into the last 8 or so Orks in their unit with the last 3 models left.

 

I agree uber units can be a severe point of weakness in an army, which is why Honour Guard stand head and shoulders above Terminators as Uber units. Performance disagreements aside, operating from a Rhino/Razorback means the Honour Guard are quite cheap to use and their loss or mis-use won't ruin your game winning chances.

 

And I don't see using a CM as inefficient really. A solid combat character with a good survival rate and the flexibility to use a S10 AP1 Ordnance Barrage once per game. Not too shabby for 170pts.

 

Incidently, I don't like Pedro Kantor for use of Honour Guard. He suffers from less survivability than Calgar or a Storm Shield CM, and strikes last with a meagre 3 attacks. That takes away the strengths of a solid character needed to boost the strength of Honour Guard (or defence).

[Giga]

I agree with gc08 here. Again, I've killed TH/SS teams with my rapid fire and vanilla assaults squads. I mass a ton of wounds on them, they're bound to roll 1s...and those silly terminators are going on Init 1, so if they roll 3 or 4 ones (which isn't unlikely when they have to make 15 saves) then hey...they're gone and they did: nothing.

Terminators in general suffer from weight of fire attacks, and that's perfectly fine. It's how one is supposed to deal with them. Same with honor guard - you don't assault them, you shoot them with weight of fire, and they fail saves.

 

TH/SS aren't meant as an all-rounder assault unit. They're a niche-filling unit that is used to drop the hammer once or twice per game on some enemy squad, MC, or vehicle that absolutely needs to die. They usually need to stay alive and to get their charge in order to do this successfully - which is why we give them a land raider transport, making it much much harder for the enemy to get to actually rapid fire them before they've fulfilled their purpose.

And I don't see using a CM as inefficient really. A solid combat character with a good survival rate and the flexibility to use a S10 AP1 Ordnance Barrage once per game. Not too shabby for 170pts.

Not shabby, but not good either. At most, he's going to be throwing 5 attacks per assault phase, meaning his kill potential is only 5, which isn't much considering his price. Bombardment is nice, but it's very unreliable and IMHO isn't worth 25 points.

 

Compare him to Vulkan, who has better gear, a TL-ed heavy flamer, and who drastically boosts the damage output of your entire army. Or Lysander, who can one-shot warbosses, who is both killier and has drastically greater survivability.

 

Pedro might not be much on his own, but his attack aura means you're going to be getting overall greater assault power armywide.

[Nougat]

Wouldn't Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws be a more apt comparison to Honor Guard anyway? TH/SS terminators and Honor Guard are obviously going to fill different roles in terms of what they're good at killing. They're not so popular now, but I used to use the LC termies a lot when Storm Shields weren't so powerful. They're hardly a bad unit, especially against other 3+ save armies. Similar to Honor Guard, but with rerolls to wound, invulnerable saves, a bit less flexibility. I'd prefer them in situations where you don't need a transport. You could even deep strike them for a similar effect to a Rhino/Razorback transport assault.

 

Compare him to Vulkan, who has better gear, a TL-ed heavy flamer, and who drastically boosts the damage output of your entire army. Or Lysander, who can one-shot warbosses, who is both killier and has drastically greater survivability.

That's my biggest problem with the Vanilla codex...the special characters are incredibly good, but I personally don't like to use "counts as" rules, and I don't play Ultramarines/Salamanders/Imperial Fists etc.

[Brother Evar]

Wouldn't Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws be a more apt comparison to Honor Guard anyway? TH/SS terminators and Honor Guard are obviously going to fill different roles in terms of what they're good at killing. They're not so popular now, but I used to use the LC termies a lot when Storm Shields weren't so powerful. They're hardly a bad unit, especially against other 3+ save armies. Similar to Honor Guard, but with rerolls to wound, invulnerable saves, a bit less flexibility. I'd prefer them in situations where you don't need a transport. You could even deep strike them for a similar effect to a Rhino/Razorback transport assault.

 

Bold text mine for emphasis.

 

Deep striking CC termi's (Loyalist or traitor) is a bad move as they will most likely be stranded and die in a small arms fire storm. If CC termi's had HI like VV then that would be different or if you could roll both your Sv and Inv together against attacks of strength 4 or less that allows a Sv. You need a LR for CC termi's so they don't get shot down too hard before they hit home. Tremi's need numbers to suceed and loosing 2 out of even 6 is a major blow. Your LC termi's DS would be worse off even if you had 8-10 of them as the 5++ dose not do as much for your life expectancy. Not to mention said small arms firestorm and counter assault on survivors. Foot slog termi's is also bad unless you play DW or Logan WG builds.

 

As to which is better, HG or CC termi's I would say it depends on your army/playstyle, local meta game with your opponents. I only use tactical temi's with my SM and CSM not dedicated CC ones. PA assault units are IMO cheaper in pts and with numbers better value. Quantity over quality has a value all of its own. B)

[Captain Idaho]

HG, LC and TH/SS Terminators fill a kind of spectrum between each other's capabilities.

 

HG excel at culling infantry but have the weakest survivability.

 

TH/SS Terminators excel at killing hard targets and taking a beating and coming back for more.

 

LW Terminators are good at killing infantry and hard targets, but not quite the best at either. They have reasonable survivability too, more than HG but less than TH/SS Terminators.

 

However, only HG are flexible when it comes to transportation options, and this makes a big difference in SM armies, where taking an Assault unit can be a big investment and if you don't want to theme your army around an expensive unit in an expensive transport, then taking HG is a very attractive option.

 

Take a look at the comparisons people most often make:

 

Vulkan +

5x Thunder Hammer Terminators +

Landraider

= 640pts

 

and

 

CM with relic blade and SS +

5x Idaho pattern HG ;) +

Rhino

= 430pts

 

Difference = 210pts

 

That is a massive difference!

[Giga]

That's my biggest problem with the Vanilla codex...the special characters are incredibly good, but I personally don't like to use "counts as" rules, and I don't play Ultramarines/Salamanders/Imperial Fists etc.

The problem is not that the special characters are incredibly good - they should be, and their point costs reflect this - it's that generic HQs don't have much that would make them more interesting then the SC equivalents.

 

If I was designing the codex, I would've given generic captains and chapter masters a bunch of buyable special rules that have armywide benefits and/or that are just plain unavailable to SCs. For example, I'd make it possible for them to buy things like eternal warrior, auras that give preferred enemy/bonus attack/fearless/counterattack/younameit to themselves and the unit they're with, rules that give armywide bonuses to reserves (or that apply negative modifiers on an enemy's reserves), rules that enable you to take one vanguard/sternguard unit as troops, etc. All these rules would of course be priced accordingly, and there would be a limit on how many you can take.

 

GW did this already with the new Space Wolves and Tyranids codexes. Vanilla dex should definitely have something like this, as it's supposed to represent a whole lot of different chapters with their own varying tactical approaches. What better way to do it then by making vanilla generic HQs the most customizable of them all? :rolleyes:

Difference = 210pts

 

That is a massive difference!

It's also a massive difference in unit quality. A rhino-mounted squad is very easy to stop, and this is especially glaring when you fight armies where you have to take the initiative and go to them (such as most IG and Tau builds, but also some shooty marine armies, etc.). These armies also have the sort of firepower that makes it easy for them to crack open, immobilize, or at least stun a rhino.

 

Land raiders - apart from their awesome firepower and their huge coolness factor :) - are pretty much immune to most anti-tank fire out there, meaning they're invaluable in situations where you have to drive into a gunline or create a roadblock to prevent your opponent from reaching certain parts of the battlefield.