Are Assault units always needed?

[Fatuous]

V interesting posts so far.

 

I have to add to the consensus that vanilla marines are not really combat specialists, and need to out shoot CC armies. But they aren't pure shooting specialists either, so they need to out assualt shooting armies.

 

So in that case:

 

You won't beat a CC army at their game. Taking CC elements just dilutes your shooting, so is not a great idea.

If against a shooty army, well your Tac squads should be enough to win the day anyway. Certainly against Tau and Imperial guard (assuming no straken CC builds). Maybe Eldar could be tricky, but take this step down to the micor level, and do the same. OUt shoot the banshees and scorpions, and CC the guardians, etc.........

 

Basically if you're CC-ing it with a vanilla marine list, you prob should have gone space wolves or BA.

 

I'm not sure I agree on the Terminators tho. Mixing in 1 or 2 LCs with the THs, can give you some nice I4 attacks to soften up what'll be hitting the hammers, and can be first casualties if needed.

 

But why always the land raider? 10 CC termies are cheaper, 2 squads of five hot footing across the table can't be that easy to take down can they?

[Giga]

But why always the land raider? 10 CC termies are cheaper, 2 squads of five hot footing across the table can't be that easy to take down can they?

- they won't ever get into any assault you'd want them to get into if you let them footslog

 

- forcing a bunch of saves on 5 dudes isn't really that hard, and they WILL fail some of their 2+/3++ saves

 

Land Raiders are great tanks. Delivering terminators into close combat is just one of their many uses. I'd be hard pressed to find an army where a godhammer's flexibility wouldn't be most welcome.

[Fatuous]

Oh some will get taken down, that's a given. But how much fire does it take to do it? And not just once, but twice?

 

And even foot slogging, they'll either:

 

Get in to CC with advancing units on T2 or T3.

Take up all the incoming fire for that turn, and still maybe survive.

Make large areas of the table un-tenable if people really want to hide from them, or avoid option 2.

 

It isn't that I don't like land raiders, and am sure will find this stuff out as I play more games with my list, but the CC foot assault does seem to have certain advantages over land raiders.

 

They can't be stopped in their tracks before they move, not with out sustained firepower like a raider, and is total threat over load. They don't have to get in to assault if your opponent spends all their time shooting at them, and hiding in their DZ affraid to come closer, leaving the rest of ur army to take objectives, etc....

 

How many balanced lists do people take, able to take down 2 5 man CC termie squads in 1 round of shooting?

[mowglie]

Get in to CC with advancing units on T2 or T3.

 

That's the problem. You'll get them into CC. You won't get them into CC with the target you want. If you really want to hit it in CC you can rest assured that your opponent doesn't want you to hit it in CC and so won't feed it to you. You'll assault on turn 3 into 50 guardsmen with a commissar and lose ;)

 

The Land Raider is so much more than "just" a box to put some terminators in. The Godhammer has approx. as much antitank as a tri-las-pred, can move and shoot, isn't anywhere near as vulnerable - particularly from the side/rear or in assault. I wish people would stop thinking of e.g. hammernators as simply "costing" 450-460 points.

 

How many balanced lists do people take, able to take down 2 5 man CC termie squads in 1 round of shooting?

 

The handy maths is that it takes an average of 18 bolter shots (or 36 lasgun shots) to kill 1 terminator. Footslogging tactical terminators are under-rated imo.

 

You do have to keep in mind, though, that one single vindicator pieplate will probably kill both your LCs *and* one of your hammers!

[Giga]

What mowglie said.

 

Terminators are slow. Against shooty lists (like guard, tau, etc.) they'll take 3-4 turns, depending on your run rolls, to get anywhere near close combat. The enemy will also find it easy to avoid them for quite a while.

Footslogging tactical terminators are under-rated imo.

There's too much AP1 and AP2 in 40k to make them really worth it.

[Fatuous]

Thanks that is some handy things to know, and some things I haven't thought of (the quick math on weapon hits to drop a termie very much appreciated). I am certainly interested and not trying to be arguementative. Have only just started back with marines, so exploring all the possibilities available.

 

The point on directing the CC where you need it to be it well taken, and that certainly is the problem when foot slogging over a land raider. And yes, anyone charging a 50 man IG blob is just asking for trouble. But on that note, 50 man combined squads are not all that difficult to avoid being so big, and even if it does come to blows, it will take them quite a while to grind their way thru a terminator assualt squad, and that is rocking in at 300 odd points with just a power sword on the commi, compared to the assualt squads cost you are tieing up more points worth in enemies, and can still counter charge in with tac squads, etc...... plus thin them out with fire on the way in (see below).

 

But the point is totally valid and the main targets for the CC termies won't have to try very hard to avoid them. I guess that is where my tactics for them are a little different. They are expensive gretchin in some ways, pushing forwards to give cover saves to anyone that needs them, and dictating where on the board the opponent is not going to want to go. They can hit one objective before piling on to the next, sooner or later they will run out of table to escape to, or will be involved in take a different objective. If they have to take on that 50 man blob, they can do it, take the first turn, and let the tac squads come in untargetable to bail them out. It is all in the synergy.

 

Raiders are cool, and I have one on my wish list, just looking at different ways to use them (terminators), with out DSing, as not a fan of that. I want my termies to take the flak from my scoring units (this being the prime objective, the killing is secondary), so they have to be on the table taking fire from the beginning. I guess it may not be an effective way of using terminators, just as big, dangerous targets, but everything is disposable, dreads, HQs, and terminators. Just to keep the major fire power off my troops. Of course if they shoot the troops instead, then there's 2 dreads and 10 angry terminators arriving on the doors step.

 

This is the logic (and i use that work with some caution;)) behind the footslogging terminators. The CC ones go up front followed by the regular ones, that can fire while the CC ones run on T1 (at the large blob squad to thin it out perhaps) getting a cover save if they need it. 10 storm bolters and 2 frag templates can force a lot of armour/cover saves. The once the CC termies have charged something, the regular can weigh in and bail them out if needed (untargetable from retaliation).

 

AP2 blasts of course change this considerably, you can delay the advance (difficult terrain tests) by moving thru cover for cover saves for every one if needed. But most importantly, foot sloggers do not suffer in the same way as DSing or getting blown out of a transport. You can start the game at maximum unit coherancy, and even a direct hit from ordinance, is unlikely to get more than 2 terminators, maybe 3......... which u can take on the hammers, and on average, loose 1. not bad rates of attrition as they just used up a serious damage dealer for 1 dead guy. They certainly will not get a template on 4 or more, it simply is not possible if you are advancing 5 terminators in a line with 2 inches between each one.

 

My only real problem now, is a land raider?, or a redeemer?......... but that is for a different thread :)

 

I would be the first to admit I've only played a few games so far, and my experience could well be more poistive than it deserves to be, which may well change my whole out look. but for now, I'm just enjoying it too much :D

[Fatuous]

What mowglie said.

 

Terminators are slow. Against shooty lists (like guard, tau, etc.) they'll take 3-4 turns, depending on your run rolls, to get anywhere near close combat. The enemy will also find it easy to avoid them for quite a while.

Footslogging tactical terminators are under-rated imo.

There's too much AP1 and AP2 in 40k to make them really worth it.

 

I'm going to try to avoid changing tactics mid thread, but I'll state it once now. Battle plans are fluid, there is always the option to DS in those sorts of circumstances, if it really will end up quicker than walking. But they will have to leave the DZ some time if they want to contest in objective missions. I think I would still start with them on the table, head towards an objective and camp it out contesting it. In KPs, where they may not ever advance, then DS is still an option.

 

4 turns is deffo optermisitic on escaping CC. 4x6inches is already on the edge of their DZ, and that is with no running and not taking the assualt move into account. Add in some running (i'm going to use a reasonable average of half the max distance, as feel this is reasonable) oveer 4 turns that is plus 12 inches of running. by turn 4, they are sitting on the enemies table edge.... not including the charge move. With guard, who generally have large armies, you simply can't hide for 4 turns.

 

The idea that termies are slow needs addressing really. They are no slower than any other regular infantry. Certainly no slower than regular marines. I think 'They are not fast' is more appropriate.

 

I agree, with so much low AP weaponry now adays, regular terminators can struggle, hence the target over load, and gretchin.... I mean terminator meat shield up front.

 

Mix this with some scouts up front to engage sooner, distract counter units, etc.......

[mowglie]

4x6inches is already on the edge of their DZ

 

Obviously it depends on the points value, army, and deployment, but don't assume that your opponent is going to deploy at the front of his zone and come towards you.

 

Hammerheads, Oblits, War-walkers, Typhoons, etc typically deploy right on their table edge. Against Mech it's common to see either one or two rows of tanks right at the back of the table.

 

Eldar in particular, but also Blood Angels, and bike lists out of Orks or C:SM, you'll literally *never* catch them with a squad of footsloggers.

[Fatuous]

Very good points, thanks!

 

I do of course now have the unshakable image in my mind of a bunch of CC terminators chasing motor bikes as they go over the horizon.......

[thade]

Very good points, thanks!

 

I do of course now have the unshakable image in my mind of a bunch of CC terminators chasing motor bikes as they go over the horizon.......

 

If your CC termies could perform a Sweeping Advance like my Vanguard can, those Bikes wouldn't be running away. :) They'd be paste.