Destroying fast transports vehicles

[Brother Grunt]

I need some help with some rules, so heres the low down.

 

...

 

Say a squad of blood angels are in a rhino and the rhino then proceeds to move flat-out due to being "fast". If said rhino is

 

shot and becomes wrecked or destroyed before the owning players next movement phase.

 

Does said squad inside the rhino become destroyed as well?

 

My argument for this is under the "Fast transport" rules it says "Passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle

 

if it has or is going to move flat out in that movement phase". Then under "Emergency Disembark" it says "Models are

 

deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this

 

disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

 

So by moving "flat out" you can not possibly disembark from the vehicle.

 

 

The opposing argument is, under the "Fast Trasport" rules he stats that he can "emergency disembark" because its no

 

longer "his movement phase" when the vehicle is shot (referring to the last line of the rule).

 

 

 

So can I get a second opinion on this?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Rider-75]

The opposing argument is, under the "Fast Trasport" rules he stats that he can "emergency disembark" because its no

 

longer "his movement phase" when the vehicle is shot (referring to the last line of the rule).

 

is correct.

[JamesI]

If you shoot a fast transport that moved flat out, the models can proceed to get out because the restriction to disembarking applied to the turn the vehicle moved, not the following opponent's turn.

[Hymirl]

Personally I think the models would emergency disembark no matter which turn it was, attempting to play some sort of hidden catch to auto-kill a squad is just silly play.

 

IF something as important as a whole squad was supposed to die then I'm sure the rules would say it clearly instead of hiding it away like an easter egg for only the eagle eyed viewer to spot. This is no different to every other attempt to produce a loophole.

[Grey Mage]

It seems pretty reasonable... if, in the bizzarre circumstance, you are destroyed during your own turn while moving the people inside are dead.

 

This is an incredibly rare circumstance.... as you would somehow have to suffer two immobilized/weapon destroyed results in one movement phase after having already lost all of your weaponry. Anyone have any ideas how that could happen?

[stinkenheim]

a skimmer moving flat out that has to go through difficult terrain could be destroyed in its movement phase if it rolls a 1... unlikely but could happen as skimmers that move over a certain distance and suffer an immobilised result ae destroyed.

[Grey Mage]

And thats about it isnt it? So... Eldar/DE Transports, LLS, and Stormravens.

 

And Valkyries, silly IG were never meant to fly ;).

[Zynk Kaladin]

And Valkyries, silly IG were never meant to fly :P.

 

It's called the Imperial Chairforce :wacko:

[Mordekiem]

Personally I think the models would emergency disembark no matter which turn it was, attempting to play some sort of hidden catch to auto-kill a squad is just silly play.

Why do you feel the models would have to do an emergency disembarkation? Do you do an emergency disembarkation anytime a vehicle is destroyed?

[hmk17]

Emergency Disembarking can be declared when the unit would disembark within 1" of an enemy or they would land in impassible terrain, they are then placed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's Hull. Any unit that Emergency Disembarks cannot do anything for the rest of the turn. If this isn't possible, then the unit has to stay in the vehicle.

 

If you go flat out and wreck during your movement phase, your guys are stuck.

 

If it gets wrecked later in your turn or on your opponent's turn, they bail out per Wrecked result rules.

 

 

Emergency Disembark looks like it can be used on your opponent's turn with a Wrecked result, so there's something if you are surrounded.

[Hymirl]

If you go flat out and wreck during your movement phase, your guys are stuck.

 

If it gets wrecked later in your turn or on your opponent's turn, they bail out per Wrecked result rules.

 

Do you have any evidence at all that the rule stating you can't disembark on a turn where the vehicle moved flat out over-rules the rule for the vehicle being wrecked?

 

No. Therefore you are making up rules.

 

Why do you feel the models would have to do an emergency disembarkation? Do you do an emergency disembarkation anytime a vehicle is destroyed?

 

It seems the best solution for the problem, admittedly its just what I think would be a good way to play it but the actual rules are unclear on the matter one says they must disembark, the other says they can't and theres no indication which has priority.

[Ming]

I was asking this same question earlier...I think it needs to be addressed in a FAQ.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Disembarking, Emergency or otherwise, is an action taken in the owning player’s movement phase, see Disembarking on BRB pg. 67. The effects of damage done to transport vehicles are detailed later on the same page. There are no special rules listed that take into account the movement speed of the transport when it takes damage.

 

Fast transport vehicles have the following limitation when moving flat out, BRB pg. 70:

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

This rule only applies to the owning player’s Movement phase. It has no bearing in an enemy’s subsequent Shooting phase.

 

This rule seems perfectly clear to me.

 

-OMG

[Mordekiem]

I thought you avoided Rules Debates, OMG? :)

 

Anyways, I agree. If your transport is destroyed to enemy shooting how fast you moved does not matter.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I thought you avoided Rules Debates, OMG? :mellow:

Just append the word senseless and that would be the truth. Healthy debate only increases my knowledge of the game and thus makes me a better player.

 

Something that I think this forum does well.

 

Cheers, -OMG

[Brother Grunt]

Thank you for your responces. I was kind of put off by the wording of the rules, but after submitting my question to the interweb and having it explained in a calm fashion I am more then happy to accept this ruling.

[Sister Agamemnon]

I am new here but I have been playing a long time...and this rule has been coming up a lot lately. I have to say you're wrong about the PHASE arguement. That refers ONLY to the movement part of the sentence.. Stating " Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. The movement phase part of that sentence is referring to the movement part of the sentence not the Embark or Disembark.

 

Also as far as the arguement about player turn and moving in your phase ends when your turn is over. That is very untrue in 5th edition. Think about the reason they are only hit them on 6's in the opponents assualt phase is because they moved in their owners movement phase.. or that they get that nifty cover save when the enemy shoots at them in opponents shooting phase also because they moved in the owners movement phase. There has to be some downside to moving flat out.. and the chance of losing all your guys is that chance.. it worked that way in 4th too.

[Duke Corwin]

Death or Glory.

 

If a Flat Out tank carrying troops tank shocks (or rams) and is wrecked (death or glory for example) than the troops inside could not disembark as it is still the movement phase.

 

So a good idea would be not no tank shock at flat out with troops inside.

[Duke Corwin]

I am new here but I have been playing a long time...and this rule has been coming up a lot lately. I have to say you're wrong about the PHASE arguement. That refers ONLY to the movement part of the sentence.. Stating " Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. The movement phase part of that sentence is referring to the movement part of the sentence not the Embark or Disembark.

 

You stated:

 

" Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. "

 

If it said ...in their last movement phase, then it could carry over but it says THAT movement phase.

 

What the rule is trying to tell you is that during the movement phase that the vehicle is moving Flat Out models can not get in or get out either before, during or after the move.

 

Of course if the vehicle explodes that is different as the models are not then disembarking as the vehicle no longer exists.

[Sister Agamemnon]

I am new here but I have been playing a long time...and this rule has been coming up a lot lately. I have to say you're wrong about the PHASE arguement. That refers ONLY to the movement part of the sentence.. Stating " Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. The movement phase part of that sentence is referring to the movement part of the sentence not the Embark or Disembark.

 

You stated:

 

" Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. "

 

If it said ...in their last movement phase, then it could carry over but it says THAT movement phase.

 

What the rule is trying to tell you is that during the movement phase that the vehicle is moving Flat Out models can not get in or get out either before, during or after the move.

 

Of course if the vehicle explodes that is different as the models are not then disembarking as the vehicle no longer exists.

 

 

If it said in their last movement phase that would confuse the hell out of people and, make them think it refered to the previous phase. You also can't refer to the last movement phase until after the phase as happened so you have to say "That movement phase" because you're referring to the one that is in question not the previous one.

 

The rules of the simpliest common dominator need to come into play here... The only way troops survive is when people bend how the words can be understood . with phase and turn yadda yadda yadda ... The fact is that the words have be twisted for people to survive versus the point blank part of it saying that can't disembark and, other parts in the book stating that when troops are not able to disembark they are destroyed, except in 2 circumstances where they can emergency disembark this being neither of those.

 

What is more likely... GW wrote a rule about troops dying that can't disembark that can almost never happen except during maybe a weird ramming or terrian mishap ? Or that people are twisting a simple rule because they don't want to loose their guys? Come on GW never writes rules for weird off the wall circumstances that never come up in 3 different places in the same book... arguing that they don't all die is like searching for lost rune stones to the holy grail and aligning them just right to show an answer that isn't really there.

 

Unfortunately until GW gets off their arse and makes a FAQ on this the debate rages on...

[Sister Agamemnon]

Of course if the vehicle explodes that is different as the models are not then disembarking as the vehicle no longer exists.

 

 

Incorrect they DO disembark

 

Read the last paragraph on page 67 *little book*

 

"Note: remember that all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, so a squad cannot take out a transport with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters. However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assualt the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules

 

So regardless if it is a wreck or an explodes it's still counted as a disembark the destroyed result just informs you how they can be deployed and additional damage if the models would have survived.

[Duke Corwin]

I am new here but I have been playing a long time...and this rule has been coming up a lot lately. I have to say you're wrong about the PHASE arguement. That refers ONLY to the movement part of the sentence.. Stating " Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. The movement phase part of that sentence is referring to the movement part of the sentence not the Embark or Disembark.

 

You stated:

 

" Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. "

 

If it said ...in their last movement phase, then it could carry over but it says THAT movement phase.

 

What the rule is trying to tell you is that during the movement phase that the vehicle is moving Flat Out models can not get in or get out either before, during or after the move.

 

Of course if the vehicle explodes that is different as the models are not then disembarking as the vehicle no longer exists.

 

 

If it said in their last movement phase that would confuse the hell out of people and, make them think it refered to the previous phase. You also can't refer to the last movement phase until after the phase as happened so you have to say "That movement phase" because you're referring to the one that is in question not the previous one.

 

The rules of the simpliest common dominator need to come into play here... The only way troops survive is when people bend how the words can be understood . with phase and turn yadda yadda yadda ... The fact is that the words have be twisted for people to survive versus the point blank part of it saying that can't disembark and, other parts in the book stating that when troops are not able to disembark they are destroyed, except in 2 circumstances where they can emergency disembark this being neither of those.

 

What is more likely... GW wrote a rule about troops dying that can't disembark that can almost never happen except during maybe a weird ramming or terrian mishap ? Or that people are twisting a simple rule because they don't want to loose their guys? Come on GW never writes rules for weird off the wall circumstances that never come up in 3 different places in the same book... arguing that they don't all die is like searching for lost rune stones to the holy grail and aligning them just right to show an answer that isn't really there.

 

Unfortunately until GW gets off their arse and makes a FAQ on this the debate rages on...

 

The rule primarily exists so players will not VOLUNTARILY disembark from a vehicle that moves flat out.

 

It was not WRITTEN for tank shocks etc. those are just other instances where the rule might come into play.

 

The rule is not in the shooting section or the tank shock section it is in the embarkation and disembarkation section.

 

It exists so a player won't embark (or disembark) troops and then move flat out. Or move flat out then embark or disembark troops.

[Sister Agamemnon]

The part of them not being able to get out if they moved flat out actually isn't in the embark or disembark section at all... and the part about what happens when you shoot and kill a transport also isn't in the shooting section. the Main Rule Book has NEVER followed logical progression lol. There are many rules that cause you to jump around the book to find what you need.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I am new here but I have been playing a long time...and this rule has been coming up a lot lately. I have to say you're wrong about the PHASE arguement. That refers ONLY to the movement part of the sentence.. Stating " Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase. The movement phase part of that sentence is referring to the movement part of the sentence not the Embark or Disembark.

 

Also as far as the arguement about player turn and moving in your phase ends when your turn is over. That is very untrue in 5th edition. Think about the reason they are only hit them on 6's in the opponents assualt phase is because they moved in their owners movement phase.. or that they get that nifty cover save when the enemy shoots at them in opponents shooting phase also because they moved in the owners movement phase. There has to be some downside to moving flat out.. and the chance of losing all your guys is that chance.. it worked that way in 4th too.

 

BBB pg 71; "A skimmer that is not immobilised and moved flat out in its last movement phase counts as obscured when fired at.

pg 63; "As the vehicle has no WS, the score needed to hit depends on the speed of the target, as follows:

 

blah

in its previous turn

 

blah blah

in its previous turn

 

blah blah blah

in its previous turn

 

4th ed has no bearing on how 5th ed rules work.

 

BBB pg 70; Fast Transport Vehicles

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a FV if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase

 

 

 

If it said in their last movement phase that would confuse the hell out of people and, make them think it refered to the previous phase. You also can't refer to the last movement phase until after the phase as happened so you have to say "That movement phase" because you're referring to the one that is in question not the previous one.

 

The rules of the simpliest common dominator need to come into play here... The only way troops survive is when people bend how the words can be understood . with phase and turn yadda yadda yadda ... The fact is that the words have be twisted for people to survive versus the point blank part of it saying that can't disembark and, other parts in the book stating that when troops are not able to disembark they are destroyed, except in 2 circumstances where they can emergency disembark this being neither of those.

 

What is more likely... GW wrote a rule about troops dying that can't disembark that can almost never happen except during maybe a weird ramming or terrian mishap ? Or that people are twisting a simple rule because they don't want to loose their guys? Come on GW never writes rules for weird off the wall circumstances that never come up in 3 different places in the same book... arguing that they don't all die is like searching for lost rune stones to the holy grail and aligning them just right to show an answer that isn't really there.

 

Unfortunately until GW gets off their arse and makes a FAQ on this the debate rages on...

 

You are making stuff up. It doesn't matter if that stuff is right, intelligent, reasonable or whatever. It is idle speculation.

 

There is no debate. People want a clear rule to be something else because of whatever reason. That is them not accepting what is written, rather than a debate.

 

Of course if the vehicle explodes that is different as the models are not then disembarking as the vehicle no longer exists.

Incorrect they DO disembark

Read the last paragraph on page 67 *little book*

"Note: remember that all models in a single unit fire simultaneously, so a squad cannot take out a transport with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters. However, if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assualt the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules

 

So regardless if it is a wreck or an explodes it's still counted as a disembark the destroyed result just informs you how they can be deployed and additional damage if the models would have survived.

 

It doesn't matter that they disembarked. The Fast transport rule only speaks of the penalty of not being able to embark or disembark in that Movement phase

[njm3]

As (I think) Wilhelm sorta said, the Skimmer example doesn't quite work because 71: "is immobilised immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn", not the current movement phase.

 

But consider two turns of flat out skimmer.

 

Skimmer Turn 1: flat out

Skimmer Turn 2: flat out, lands in trees, immobilized -> explodes, passengers must disembark but they can't.

 

"is immobilised immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn" (71)

"Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." (70).

"Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed." (Wrecked rules, 67).

 

 

Seems clear that everyone dies in the skimmer two turn moving example. *edit* but in a one turn situation, they can get out.

 

 

 

But shooting phase during the enemies turn? The fast-moving-no-disembark restriction on page 70 only applies to that movement phase, and isn't a restriction during the enemies shooting phase.

 

Therefore it appears that flat out transports that are wrecked during the enemy's shooting phase: the models are permitted to disembark, and if they can't disembark then in two situations they may emergency disembark (because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain), and if that doesn't work, then they are destroyed (page 67).

 

 

Separate issue, emergency disembarking is only permitted in two situations, enemies or impassible terrain. Pretty clear that it isn't allowed whenever regular disembarking wouldn't work, only in the two special cases.