Cam2Designs Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 I have never played bikes or gone against someone who has. I am considering either a Capt or a MotF on a bike as an HQ choice based on comments on this board. However, I can't find where it states whether or not an IC on a bike can join a non-bike unit. Logic tells me that he can't, even if he abides by the "unit only moves as far as the slowest model" rule. I am sure some would say "why would you want him to join a non-bike unit anyway?" Well, so he could, in certain situations, benefit from some "bodyguards" while retaining his T5 he gets from his bike. OR a biker Libby could join a unit to use Gate of Infinity and then ride off into the sunset. Just trying to nail down all the benefits of a biker HQ. Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 "Joining" in 5ed is just a matter of location at the end of movement: If he's within 2", he has joined. Jump pack ICs can also join infantry units, in the same way. Remember though, enemy weapon strength is taken against MAJORITY toughness, so a T4(5) IC on a bike joining a T4 squad will not get his toughness bonus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam2Designs Posted April 30, 2010 Author Share Posted April 30, 2010 "Joining" in 5ed is just a matter of location at the end of movement: If he's within 2", he has joined. Jump pack ICs can also join infantry units, in the same way. I see. So an IC doesn't have to "declare" that he is part of a unit or not...it is just based on proximity? If you are within 2" you are part of that squad regardless and, therefor, subject to any rules pertaining to that unit. Right? In the same vein, if you take a Command Sqd or Honor Guard with a biker HQ, do they all have to be on bikes? If not, can an IC leave said Command Sqd. to operate on its own? I assume that an IC with a command squad can't leave it nor can he be on a bike and have a non-biker command squad. Just checked on this...there isn't an option for an honor guard model to be on a bike...but there is for Command Squad units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 command squads and honour guards aren't brought to accompany a captain (or chapter master) as such but they are unlocked as a unit by taking the character but they are free to operate on their own... just happens that most people chuck their character in there. you are free to take a bike mounted captain and a command squad on foot if you wish. you are also able to give the squad a transport if you wanted as the command squad has all of its optuions listed seperately and do not require the captain to be equipped in a certain configuration to be usable. and yes, as long as you are within 2" of a squad at the end of the movement phase you are assumed to be part of it. if you are within range of more than one squad you must declare which you are joining. there are no rules for characters on bikes/jump packs from being unable to join units of a different type (in this case bike/jump infantry). very rarely a piece of wargear that changes the characters unit type will state that thye cannot join certain units, thunderwolf mounts fo space wolves for instance state that thye cannot join nits other than wolves/twc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 command squads and honour guards aren't brought to accompany a captain (or chapter master) as such but they are unlocked as a unit by taking the character but they are free to operate on their own... just happens that most people chuck their character in there. See what the manager at my LGS told me was that when you get them they become like a retinue. They are in a grey box and so are a unit upgrade for him, he loses his IC status while they are still alive and so can't be singled out in combat. I'm looking for where he got this now, can't at the moment, but he said that they have to attach to him and all the IC jazz I just said happens. EDIT: I think I know what he is on about now. Pg48, the bit about retinues, basically he said the Honour Guard being in a grey box are a unit upgrade to an IC and so follow the rules for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 command squads and honour guards aren't brought to accompany a captain (or chapter master) as such but they are unlocked as a unit by taking the character but they are free to operate on their own... just happens that most people chuck their character in there. See what the manager at my LGS told me was that when you get them they become like a retinue. They are in a grey box and so are a unit upgrade for him, he loses his IC status while they are still alive and so can't be singled out in combat. I'm looking for where he got this now, can't at the moment, but he said that they have to attach to him and all the IC jazz I just said happens. EDIT: I think I know what he is on about now. Pg48, the bit about retinues, basically he said the Honour Guard being in a grey box are a unit upgrade to an IC and so follow the rules for that. He was wrong, there are NO retinues in codex space marines. As a mater of fact I dont think there are retinues in any 5e dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 yup, only old codexes have retinues, and, well the tyranids do, but they are aliens so thats allright then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 yup, only old codexes have retinues, and, well the tyranids do, but they are aliens so thats allright then. Nids dont have retinues either, retinues only apply to IC, and the tyrants are not IC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 No retinues in 5th edition. They're phasing them out. They said they wanted to update every race 'dex before 6th edition, and if they don't keep to that then I'm sure they're going to at least update every 'dex with a retinue left in it... they won't be in 6th edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2383978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Just remember, if they end up within 2" of two or more units you DO need to declare wich unit theyll be attached to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 His reasoning is the fact that they're in a grey box which he says are unit upgrades. While all the greybox bits I've seen have been that, there is nothing to exclusively say that is what it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 *blinks* So he thinks Chronus is a retinue for a vindicator? Because trust me... it doesnt work that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinkenheim Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 they are an option only unlocked if you take a captain. once unlocked they do not tke a slot on the FOC. in that respect they are an upgrade for a captain/chapter master but it doesn't make them a retinue and nothing in the rules states that if you purchase both a captain and a command squad that the two must begin the game together and th captain is unable to leave them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Not a retinue, a unit upgrade. Like you can have Corbulo as one of your priests or Lemates added to the Death Company. It's generally either replacing something in the unit or adding to it. So assuming that is true, they are a retinue or bodyguard. Pg42; 'Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit they cannot leave during the game.' and 'When this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed.' See now this is where I think it all comes down to. He only loses the IC status if he can't leave, but he can't lose it because of the first quote. He is an IC, he can leave, so the next bit, the bit about him not being an IC can't apply. He thinks some odd things though, like Blood Lance isn't a line but a wall and goes infinitely up as well as 4d6 forwards. Same for JotWW. It would be awesome if the Honour Guard worked that way, Chapter Masters that couldn't be singled out, but I think he's wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Pretty typesetting is nice but there are no rules stating the command squad is a retinue, nor that the IC must join it. Therefore there are no rules stating that hte command squad is a retinue, not that the IC must join it. Its really that simple, this store guy is plain wrong. If he wants to insist just ask him to show you the rule, repeatedly until he does show you the rule (he can't show you the rule since there isn't one, and pretty grey boxes don't count for nothing). Also if you compare to one of the older codexes like the Black Templar one you can show an example where it does clearly state that the IC must be attached and stay attached meaning the unit is a retinue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 I brought this up with him today and it all got a bit heated. I think I'll just leave it, it's not like he even plays anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam2Designs Posted May 1, 2010 Author Share Posted May 1, 2010 This has been very interesting. I, as do many of you I am guessing, use Army Builder to build my rosters. As I know that it isn't a GW official product and that the data files are created by humies just like us who are not perfect, then I will make the following statement with that caveat. In Army Builder, I have noticed that, unlike many of the upgrades and add-ons for other units, Honor Guard and Command Squads are listed separately in the HQ listing and are subsequently able to be selected on their own. That lends credence to the statement that those two units are "unlocked" by the selection of a Chapter Master or Captain ruleswise and, in a round about way, to the probability that said Chapter Master or Captain can operate separately from them. That seem about right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200124-independent-characters-on-bikes/#findComment-2384638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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