Rules debate.

[Antagonis]

Yeah, I saw this on BoLS, so kudos to that community for spotting it. But seriously now, Sound off on this little gem.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P21DphJtXw8

[Race Bannon]

No. False. Oh my Gods. This IS "just cheese" and is the Paragon of rules-lawyering to it's zenith. No, it's not rules-lawyering that would be too kind. This is :cuss

[Legatus]

It is just a case of lax writing.

 

Power weapon: --> enemy armour save is ignored when a model is "armed" with a power weapon.

 

Lightning claws: --> the "wielder" can re-roll failed rolls to wound.

 

Power fist: --> the "user's" strength is doubled.

 

Different words, but they are all intended to refer to the same principle: A model makes all of it's attacks with one of it's multiple different weapons. Unfortnately Alessio did not resolve to phrase every weapon effect in exactly the same precise manner, and now, with the more varried phrasing, a lot of the weapon effects may appear to apply even if a model is just being equipped with that weapon.

 

Power weapons and rending weapons confer certain effects on models "armed" with them. Lightning claws and poisoned weapons grant certain bonuses to models "wielding" them, while witch blades let a model "armed" with them wound on 2+ while the "wielding" model also gets strength 9 against vehicles.

 

I think it should be agreed upon by all players that all of those phrases refer to "the weapon being swung in combat", i.e. using it for teh attacks of the model, and not just being equipped with any of the weapons above.

[Shadow Captain Corveus]

I watched this when it came out with incredulity! This is rules lawyering of the worst kind; the kind that goes against common sense!

 

:cuss :huh: :blink:

[Grey Mage]

You only get the benefits of one weapon, ever. That ones pretty clear

 

... these models must choose wich weapon to use that turn,

 

So you choose wich one to use, wich is further supported by the LCs own rules:

 

... allows the wielder to reroll any failed roll to wound.

 

You have to use it to be wielding it. Carrying something around is NOT wielding it. Thus, if your wielding the power weapon you cannot be using the powerfist- because it states:

 

...and also doubles the users strength....

 

Again, you have to be using it, and you can only choose ONE SCCW to use in a turn.

 

Its not even horrible rules lawyering, its a complete failure in reading comprehension.

[IronWinds]

He is arguing the word 'any'.

 

This is like when Bill Clinton tried to argue the word 'is'. It is ridiculous and should be ignored.

[pingo]

Excuse me while I shake the parmezan out of my beard.

 

 

Ridiculous.

[Grey Mage]

He is arguing the word 'any'.

 

This is like when Bill Clinton tried to argue the word 'is'. It is ridiculous and should be ignored.

But in order to get the bonus of rerolling 'any' roll to wound you have to be 'wielding' it. You can only wield one weapon type a turn... /done.

 

Wield

tr.v. wield·ed, wield·ing, wields

1. To handle (a weapon or tool, for example) with skill and ease.

 

Use

v. used, us·ing, us·es

v.tr.

1.

a. The act of using; the application or employment of something for a purpose: with the use of a calculator; skilled in the use of the bow and arrow.

b. The condition or fact of being used: a chair in regular use.

 

To use something or to wield something are functionally identical. This person is a moron.

[Ashe Darke]

This is rules lawyering of the worst kind; the kind that goes against common sense!

It makes perfect sense, the guy fires the bolt rounds between the blades of the lightening claws and charges them with their power weapon properties :D

[Justicar Valius]

Grey Mage I think I will now be able to sleep once I've got all this cheese off me.

[Techmarine Harkus]

One thing remains obvious to me. If someone tried this against me in a game, or anything similar, and refused to yeild to logic... It would lead to the inevitable result that follows the collapse of logic. Ie, someone being blugeoned to death with a figure case.

[Walter Payton]

To be honest, I think BOW is taking the piss here...

[Justicar Valius]

someone quote grey mage who has a youtube account on the reply boards. Not working for me.

[the jeske]

if that was true then a sw player could re-roll to hits for his main hand LC and use the offhand to re-roll wounds just like it says in the rule book.

 

But mage if the second LC [or any other second weapon] is not wielded , then how are we getting the +1A.

[Grey Mage]

if that was true then a sw player could re-roll to hits for his main hand LC and use the offhand to re-roll wounds just like it says in the rule book.

 

But mage if the second LC [or any other second weapon] is not wielded , then how are we getting the +1A.

Ahh, well that one is thankfully taken too. If you have a second weapon SCCW of the same type, you merely get +1 attack while using the weapon's bonuses. That is also explicit, and is likewise incompatable with carrying two different SCCWs.

 

Note: Weapon's is possessive, not plural, thus you only gain the bonus once.

 

The only real grey area is when you have two of the same and a different aswell. Its just plain not covered in the rules- despite the fact that its possible in multiple codices, including such newcomers as C:SM.

[Kizzdougs]

You only get the benefits of one weapon, ever. That ones pretty clear

 

Except for abbadon :D

And yes a power weapon/bolter is quite laughable :D

[Ashe Darke]

If this thing wasn't crazy and actually being used I think the combo you want is a wolf claw and power fist, you opt to strike with the wolf claw at twice strength and at your own initiative with re-rolling hits ;)

[Zynk Kaladin]

I want him to explain, fluff-wise, how having a lightning claw would make a Space Marine's thunder hammer more effective. Common sense should take precedence over word-bending.

[Decoy]

I want him to explain, fluff-wise, how having a lightning claw would make a Space Marine's thunder hammer more effective. Common sense should take precedence over word-bending.

 

A faster weapon being used as a feint can often open up a position to land a more telling blow with a more powerful weapon.

 

 

Not that I condone this guy's logic, but... there ya go.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Yes, but I could say a power sword is also a fast weapon but doesn't make the thunderhammer any more effective.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, and in second edition we could have paried the TH attack, but such are the times.

[hmk17]

This is them stirring the pot and having a little fun.

 

I lol'd a lot at the video and then at the comments.

[BrotherMoses]

I don't have time to watch it all, but I'm going to hope they're just having fun screwing around with this video.

 

If not I think people are going to have to start taking college entry level reading comprehension courses before I play them.

[Brother Valerius]

That was the most retarded interpretation of rules I've ever seen. It was at least tenuously tethered to reason when they were just talking about lightning claws affecting thunder hammers, etc (although still very flagrantly violating the spirit of the rules), but once he started arguing LCs allow you to re-roll wounds with a shooting attack, it went to a whole new level of stupid.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Its not even horrible rules lawyering, its a complete failure in reading comprehension.

 

:yes: