Sanguinary sword (or FC) vs monolith

[Fixer]

Sanguine Sword

This power is used at the start of either player`s Assault phase. The Librarian`s close combat attacks are made at Strengtn 10.

 

Living Metal: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal wich is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfist, mounstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highrst score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

I have problem with underlined term.

Does it means that BA librarian can't attack monolith with Sanguinary sword (and he attacking with only WS from his profile)?

Does it means Monolith ignoring any rule that increasing attacking models WS (like Furious Charge or Relic blade) and models attack with WS from profile instead of weapon's strength?

 

FAQ from GW have no answer

Q. Does a model with a powerfist/claw that attacks a Monolith get to double its Strength for armour penetration rolls?

A. Yes, powerfists/claws, thunder hammers, andso on still double their user’s Strength when attacking a Monolith.

 

thanks in advance

[Hellios]

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

 

I the one d6 bit is self-explanatory what I read unaugmented strength to mean is for example people who have special rules such as tank hunter. AKA a Lascannon with tank hunter would "count as" being S10.

 

Basically take your attack S and roll d6 (you can roll 2d6 and pick the best with the big guns but not combined 2d6 like with the melta-gun) but you can't use things like tank-hunters (although furious charge would count) :P

[bystrom]

IIRC power fists still work (at 2x S), so the sword should work.

[Cedric]

Basically take your attack S and roll d6 (you can roll 2d6 and pick the best with the big guns but not combined 2d6 like with the melta-gun) but you can't use things like tank-hunters (although furious charge would count) :tu:

 

 

You most definitely can use Tank Hunter to bust a Monolith.

The Living Metal rule ignores only extra dice, the +1 to penetrate from TH is not an exta die, but a fixed value and thus applicable.

[chapter master 454]

This really irks me badly: they say unaugmented but yet they let players augment and up their strength at will against the monolith with no question. If it were for the FAQ for power fists and such I would argue and eventually beat you to death if you said they worked. Unaugmented means BASE strength and not AUGMENTED power fist strength (note: any buff to it AUGMENTS it, furious charge shouldn't work, tank hunter shouldn't work, nothing that boosts your strength should work but GW seem to think UNAUGMENTED is a very strange word that they don't understand). The sanguine sword AUGMENTS your strength therefor it is null and void against a monolith: man up and learn that melta doesn't work on everything. (besides: Why are you even bothering with the monolith? You do know that not even 4 lascannons of devasators should aim at it but actually the warriors, immortals, the destroyers and all that: they can't come back if you completely wipe them out or instant death them).

 

[/rant] (it's one of my pet hates in 40k, pardon my rather over the top reaction but it does get under my skin that this rule is so badly back-handed aside by so much it was supposed to counter)

[Cedric]

@ Chapter Master 454. No need to hate at all.

If you re-read the Living metal rule, you'll find that it only ignores 2 things, namely wapons that lowers AV and additional penetration dice.

It doesn't mention anything about "unaugmented strenght" at all, though the Necron FAQ confirms that you do double your str when hitting it.

 

Therefore, you are free to use SoV aganinst the Monolith.

[Hellios]

Basically take your attack S and roll d6 (you can roll 2d6 and pick the best with the big guns but not combined 2d6 like with the melta-gun) but you can't use things like tank-hunters (although furious charge would count) :devil:

 

 

You most definitely can use Tank Hunter to bust a Monolith.

The Living Metal rule ignores only extra dice, the +1 to penetrate from TH is not an exta die, but a fixed value and thus applicable.

 

Can you clarify for me how you came to this decision? I based my answer of a FAQ & Errata made by GW... the following was said...

 

"So no bonuses for multiple Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills etc. The only exception to this is the Vindicare Assassins' turbo-penetrator round."

 

You may disagree and go ahead I won't stop you, however if you can find a more recent official (read GW not INAT or someone else) publication that disagrees with this statement I would be interested to know so I can make corrections to my own understanding of the rules.

 

This really irks me badly: they say unaugmented but yet they let players augment and up their strength at will against the monolith with no question. If it were for the FAQ for power fists and such I would argue and eventually beat you to death if you said they worked. Unaugmented means BASE strength and not AUGMENTED power fist strength (note: any buff to it AUGMENTS it, furious charge shouldn't work, tank hunter shouldn't work, nothing that boosts your strength should work but GW seem to think UNAUGMENTED is a very strange word that they don't understand). The sanguine sword AUGMENTS your strength therefor it is null and void against a monolith: man up and learn that melta doesn't work on everything. (besides: Why are you even bothering with the monolith? You do know that not even 4 lascannons of devasators should aim at it but actually the warriors, immortals, the destroyers and all that: they can't come back if you completely wipe them out or instant death them).

 

[/rant] (it's one of my pet hates in 40k, pardon my rather over the top reaction but it does get under my skin that this rule is so badly back-handed aside by so much it was supposed to counter)

 

It says the weapons unaugmented strength not models strength and the weapons strength is based on the models strength or augments the models strength rather than the weapons strength. Hence why fists and furious charge works and tank hunters wont.

[Duke Corwin]

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

 

Note that the above sentence refers to the strength of the weapon and not the model using it. The unaugmented strength of a power fist is 2x the strength of the wielder (up to 10). The same is true for relic blades which have a base strength 2 points greater than the wielder. Other similar weapons would also work.

 

Only if a power or ability augments the weapon would the living metal stop it.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I thought monoliths ignored furious charge

[Ashe Darke]

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

 

Note that the above sentence refers to the strength of the weapon and not the model using it. The unaugmented strength of a power fist is 2x the strength of the wielder (up to 10). The same is true for relic blades which have a base strength 2 points greater than the wielder. Other similar weapons would also work.

Relic Blades are S6, it just so happens that it's +2 to their strength. It will always strike at S6, even if you charge with Furious Charge. If the wielder was S10 it would still strike at S6.

 

Helios is right on this topic. What they meant is the formula for Armour Penetration for Monoliths is Strength + D6. Meltas would be Strength + D6 + D6 and Tank Hunters would be Strength + D6 + 1. Those two have bits added onto the 'Strength + D6' part which is why they don't work. They've been sloppy in saying this but this is what they mean.

 

But CM454 is right in the sense that it wasn't unclear before, but I think they felt it was a bit too broken and so they did the FAQ to allow that to happen.

[Cedric]

Basically take your attack S and roll d6 (you can roll 2d6 and pick the best with the big guns but not combined 2d6 like with the melta-gun) but you can't use things like tank-hunters (although furious charge would count) <_<

 

 

You most definitely can use Tank Hunter to bust a Monolith.

The Living Metal rule ignores only extra dice, the +1 to penetrate from TH is not an exta die, but a fixed value and thus applicable.

 

Can you clarify for me how you came to this decision? I based my answer of a FAQ & Errata made by GW... the following was said...

 

"So no bonuses for multiple Talos attacks, tank-hunter veteran skills etc. The only exception to this is the Vindicare Assassins' turbo-penetrator round."

 

You may disagree and go ahead I won't stop you, however if you can find a more recent official (read GW not INAT or someone else) publication that disagrees with this statement I would be interested to know so I can make corrections to my own understanding of the rules.

 

Certainly! I base my decision on the Necron Codex and the Necron FAQ on GW's homepage (which I just eyed through yet again prior to writing this reply. The only question concerning attacking the Monolith there is regarding powerfists/TH's)

Which FAQ/Errata are you reffering to, Hellios?

[Hellios]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...-11_Edition.pdf

 

It is an older FAQ but except where newer FAQs contradict it or rules have changed I still follow its rulings.

[Cedric]

Well, the Necron FAQ on GW's web says it's updated for 5th edition.

Facing off against Necrons and using 5th ed. rules, I'd use Tank Hunters (but not the melta rule) against the Monolith.

 

I would consider any 4th ed FAQ obsolete if there's a 5th ed FAQ to the relevant codex.

[Hellios]

Well, the Necron FAQ on GW's web says it's updated for 5th edition.

Facing off against Necrons and using 5th ed. rules, I'd use Tank Hunters (but not the melta rule) against the Monolith.

 

I would consider any 4th ed FAQ obsolete if there's a 5th ed FAQ to the relevant codex.

 

But how the Monolith living metal rule interacts with armour penetration hasn't changed (although I argue RAW you can't use tank hunter anyway) between 4th and 5th ed and the 5th ed FAQ doesn't with the 4th ed FAQ on this point and I guess the 5th ed FAQ addresses questions that have come about since the 4th ed FAQ and also the release of 5th ed and since people no longer had an issue with the tank hunters rule (due to it being in the old FAQ) they didn't include it in the new FAQ... yay GW foresight!

[Grey Mage]

Things that are listed as not working against the monolith in its own rules:

-Attacks that count the AV as less than normal. The attack still happens, but no benefit from lance, etc.

-Weapons with additional armor penetration dice. Again, the attack still happens but no extra dice are used.

 

It is also noted that ordnance still rolls 2d6 and picks the highest.

 

There is no issue here guys. Sanguine Sword works... Hammer Hand works. Furious Charge, Powerfists, all work at full value.

 

Remember, the Monolith was alot burlier before they had their codex update.

[Cedric]

I don't understand the conflict in the first place.

The original Living Metal rule found in the codex specifically mentions 2 modifications to armour penetration that the Monolith ignores, none of which is the +1 str/+1 pen that FC/TH confers.

 

RAW it is explicitly clear what the living metal does and doesn't do.

 

Oh, well. With any luck there'll be a new Necron codex within the year that hopefully (knock on wood!) will resolve this.

[Duke Corwin]

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

 

Note that the above sentence refers to the strength of the weapon and not the model using it. The unaugmented strength of a power fist is 2x the strength of the wielder (up to 10). The same is true for relic blades which have a base strength 2 points greater than the wielder. Other similar weapons would also work.

Relic Blades are S6, it just so happens that it's +2 to their strength. It will always strike at S6, even if you charge with Furious Charge. If the wielder was S10 it would still strike at S6.

 

Helios is right on this topic. What they meant is the formula for Armour Penetration for Monoliths is Strength + D6. Meltas would be Strength + D6 + D6 and Tank Hunters would be Strength + D6 + 1. Those two have bits added onto the 'Strength + D6' part which is why they don't work. They've been sloppy in saying this but this is what they mean.

 

But CM454 is right in the sense that it wasn't unclear before, but I think they felt it was a bit too broken and so they did the FAQ to allow that to happen.

 

 

My bad I confused how they work with frost blades which add +1 to a models strength. However it is the unaugmented strength of the weapon so a frost blade wielded by a strength 4 model should have an unaugmented strength of 5 vs living metal.

 

The current FAQ states that powerfists, etc get double strength.

[Hellios]

I like this FAQ someone made in regards to living metal...

 

QUESTION:

 

How does a Monolith's 'Living Metal' work? What does it Negate?

 

ANSWER:

 

Anything that adds to the armour penetration will not work. Here is a non-exhaustive list:

 

Rending- negated

Tank Hunters rule- negated

Eldar Lance special rule- negated

Dark Eldar Talos hit/extra AP special rule- negated

Ork Super Stikk Bombs do not double their D6 penetration roll

Monsterous Creatures, Melta wepons and Chainfist/ Eviscerators only get a single dice on top of Strength, not 2D6.

 

Some exceptions:

 

Vindicare Assassins get their 3D6 'Turbo Penetrator' round, as it is a 2D6 Str + D6 penetration.

 

Ordnance still rolls 2D6, and pick the highest value dice (it is still only Str + D6, but better odds of getting a high penetration result).

 

QUESTION:

 

How do AP1 weapons affect Living Metal?

 

ANSWER:

 

AP1 still upgrade the attack in the usual manner. It works since the AP1 rule is not augmented strength, a dice modifier or additional penetration dice (i.e. it's not in any of the categories specified by the living metal rule).

 

(answer provided by Rork)

 

QUESTION:

How does living metal work with weapons which augment Strength instead of penetration?

 

ANSWER:

There are two schools of thought with regard to this question based on the following quote from the FAQ:

 

When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing- don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith.

The first school states:

 

No. There are no bonuses against Living Metal. The only thing which would affect the monolith are Tyranid upgrades which do not confer bonuses, but actually alter the model's stat line.

The second school states:

 

Power Fists, Dark Blades, Eviscerators, Furious Charge, Great Weapons, Combat Drugs, and Strength enhancing weapons/gear are fine- they alter the strength of the initial hit, not the penetration.

 

The 'Doubling scores' in the FAQ refers to Ork Super Stikk Bombs, because they doubled the result of the D6 before adding strength when penetrating i.e Str + (D6 x 2). Before the FAQ, Orks were capable of decimating Monoliths because of this 'doubling bonus', whilst every other race was penalized. The quoted wording is to clear this up, but as usual, GW isn't thorough enough to state this themselves. Also remember, this FAQ was before the RAW era

 

Hence, 'Fists and Strength enhancing weaponry and gear is allowed, because it is still only Strength + single D6, the original intention of the Living Armour rule.

 

However has anyone got both sets of living metal rules (old and new print) and can they post them here and state which is which? Cause maybe I'm on the old rules, maybe I'm on the new... so I would like to know... because as Ashe says as far as I understand it you can only ever use S+D6 for penetration (may roll 2d6 and pick highest) and that modifiers to strength, as is the case for some CC weapons are allowed but bonuses that augment the weapons strength for penetration such as tank hunters is not allowed.

[Ashe Darke]

The current FAQ states that powerfists, etc get double strength.

When I said Strength + D6 I didn't mean base strength, I meant after things like powerfists etc.

 

Although it should be mentioned that the FAQ are not compulsory. The page before it explains what they are, they are the house rules they use at the studio. The only bit you have to follow is the errata.

[IronWinds]

In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

 

Is this something added to later prints of the Necron codex? Because I'm reading my necron codex and that is not in there. The description for Living metal ends after the line about ordinance.

 

Which means... the original phrase didn't say anything about unaugmented strength. And even that line says 'in practice'. So in practice its S+d6. That was just an easier way to explain it to people. But really the rule only negates rolling extra dice or having anything that counts the armor as being less than it is.

[Ashe Darke]

I think there were two prints of the necron codex, I don't know what all the difference are but my one is different from the ones in the shop.

[Divergent Reality]

There were two printings of the necron codex. The big change was the "In practice..." bit. It was meant to clarify Living Metal versus many types of attacks. But, as you can see, there are still issues on how Living Metal works.