how to equip your sergeant?

[wazzakanoo]

i just go a tactical suad and i was wondering how to equip you tac squad sergeant. i was thinking plasma pistols but hey, what do the mighty denizens of the B&C say?

[Koremu]

We say "this should be in Tactica"

[fivepointedstar]

that question is based off how you play. and what kind of army your facing. ie wargear. good thing about sm are that they are so versitile, and a kind of.. jack of all trades make any other army feel the pressure type.

 

But... if your looking for advise to build on.. try a bolter combi weapon. it has a second alt weapon for that -there getting to close for comfort part of play-. and it still allows for rapid fire bolter stay and spray fun. good luck hope this helped.

[crossatron]

Personally I wouldn't bother giving the sgt anything more than his normal boltpistol or bolter for shooting. I would however, equip him with a power fist. This gives your squad some real punch when in close combat and is quite handy against enemy characters and vehicles. Let the rest of the squad deal with shooting in my opinion.

[Isiah]

Yes as this isn't a rule-based question as such but an equipment choice topic it's going over to +TACTICA ASTARTES+

[JamesI]

Part of the answer to me depends on the size/makeup of the squad.

 

A small squad, I prefer a power weapon. Too worried the sergeant will die if he has a power fist. Don't change to a plasma pistol, too risky for blowing yourself up.

 

A large squad, a fist. If he has a fist, then a combi-weapon/storm bolter can be a good choice too since he isn't getting the +1 attack for a second weapon anyway.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Well as my tacticals are mainly used for crowd control (hoard - lots of weak things like gaunts that can overwhelm you with numbers) I can categorically say the 10pts I fork out for a combi flamer are never wasted. I also like the security a powerfist affords... The sheer joy when a tac sergeant insta-gibbs an expensive independant character makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

 

Assault squads... Why not? It's gonna get more use than on a tac sergent anyways.

 

Well as my tacticals are mainly used for crowd control (hoard - lots of weak things like gaunts that can overwhelm you with numbers) I can categorically say the 10pts I fork out for a combi flamer are never wasted.

 

I also like the security a powerfist affords... The sheer joy when a tac sergeant insta-gibbs an expensive independant character makes me warm and fuzzy inside. Assault squads... Why not? It's gonna get more use than on a tac sergent anyways.

[thade]

Power Fist and a Boltgun. Buried power fists are the bane of any opponent IC on the table, esp if they mean to charge your tac squad. They can't focus attacks on the power fist, but your power fist can focus attacks on them. They're also nigh-guaranteed troop kills in assaults and can crack open transports for you if all else fails.

 

Given more points to spare, combi-weapons can be fun too.

[mowglie]

I play Power Fist + Combi-weapon (usually combi-flamer) or just Bolter (plus occasionally melta-bombs if I had 5 pts left over).

 

Think "what does a Tactical Squad do?", and equip your sergeant to support that. Tactical squads have to be flexible. They're called upon to engage a variety of targets, to survive defending objectives, and to claim ground. Frequently they're used for their overwhelming <12" firepower - either on the move or jumping out of a transport. They'll be asked to assault either very weak targets (to deal with them) or very strong targets (to hold them up).

 

Let's check out the popular options:-

 

Bolt-pistol + Chainsword: I don't like to give up a bolter shot for a measly +1A in CC.

Power Weapon: I'm not convinced. A single power weapon doesn't fundamentally change the capabilities of the squad. It's 15pts for a tiny incremental bonus in assault against things with good armour saves. Plus you've got to give up a bolter shot if you want the +1A.

Power Fist: Lets the tactical squad threaten ICs, MCs, Armour. Unlike the power weapon, this *does* fundamentally alter the squad's capabilities.

Melta-bombs: Lets the squad threaten heavy armour (it can already threaten light armour with Krak grenades). Cheap - unlike the fist - but lacks flexibility.

Combi-weapon: Double up on the squad's special weapon to make the squad more effective at its primary role.

[King Tiger]

anything that looks good, I don't like being one of these boring people that spam the fists around there tacticals, I like mixing it up so all my sgt's look different.

 

how they perform isn't important, its only 1 guy, and no weapon he is armed with will make enough difference to start relying on it

[waaanial00]

I have been branching out of late. I used to be shouting "fist, givem a fist!" however I have reflected of late about the value of standard. 3 standard attacks (regardless of what you do) isnt a bad thing now is it? Works for them assault marines. However Im more interested in how well they shoot rather than how well they punch, which is why I have started to place a plasma pistol on my sgt and thats it.

 

If he kills himself, I may shed a tear. If he gets involved in a tussle with a dread then not only have I done something very silly but I am probably holding up a dread from running amock. Taking combat tactics allows me to try and get out of dodge as well.

 

Still I will be taking 2 out of 3 fists but I am starting to see less and less reason for me to take them. Either way take the bolter with the first, its just better.

 

Wan

[ImperialReaper]

It depends on the size of the game imo.

 

Normally you dont want your Tactical Squad to end up in close combat - so you should give your sergeant a bolter gun or something like this.

In Games around 600 points where your army mainly consists of tactical squads you will probably not be able to keep them out of close combat, so a close combat weapon can be helpfull. In this case you should choose a bolt pistol and a chainsword against enemies without good armor saves and standard toughness. Against those others you should take a power weapon or a power fist.

[mowglie]

I have been branching out of late. I used to be shouting "fist, givem a fist!" however I have reflected of late about the value of standard. 3 standard attacks (regardless of what you do) isnt a bad thing now is it?

 

Are you thinking BP+CCW? 3 attacks are better than 2, but 13 aren't much better than 12. I'd rather the extra bolter.

 

Or if you're just talking about leaving him vanilla with a bolter, yeah I go with that fairly often. At 1500 I usually play one fist one bolter.

 

Depends on leftover points though. I use a Librarian HQ, so if my list doesn't round out nicely it's the tactical sergeants that typically get the spare points for toys.

[thade]

Meltabombs are five wasted points. If you're playing a game type where there are bunkers, melta bombs are *awesome* (as you auto hit and that 2d6 pen will get you through). If you are planning on cracking a Land Raider, there are MUCH more effective ways of doing that then charging it with your tactical squad. Honestly I'd sooner commit an assault cannon's fire to a LR and hope for a Rend than charge a tac squad in there and give up 200 points.

 

Against anything else you're going to be hitting AV12 to 10 in assaults (AV13 if you are very unlucky) and in those cases you'll want to remember that volume of shots > strength of shots. That power fist will do two attacks, three on the charge...which is not only better odds against a vehicle in said-assault, but also effectively threatens ICs and multi-wound models in assault with Instant Death.

[Jackelope King]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: power fists are usually not worth their points. In most scenarios, it's just as efficient to use Combat Tactics to fall back from an assault and fire away. They're a Hail Mary pass at best, and don't compliment the role I see Tactical squads being most successful at (that of an armored cavalry unit, popping out of a transport to clean up a weakened enemy, or creating a no-fly zone around critical areas of the board). The ability to fall back, then rapid fire, fire off a special weapon and a heavy weapon is usually much more efficient than swinging 12 times when only two of those attacks have a real chance to do anything. That said, if you play with a special character and lose Combat Tactics, I think they're worth a second look, but you really need to weigh the value. I'd never pick a power fist in an army over something like upgrading a Predator to a Dakka Predator.

 

My sergeants usually just carry a bolter. When I have extra points, they get a combi-melta each in my Biker army, but that's about it.

[Koremu]

My local metagame is full of tanks and walkers. Tactical Squads are 9 Krak Grenades and a Power Fist of doom to that.

 

I take Power Fists in Tactical Squads which I intend to use without another nearby unit with a Power Fist. Thus, my backline Tactical Squad that usually spends most of the game sitting on an Objective and near to my Whirlwind or Predator as a security unit gets a Fist, while the one that runs backup for my Command Squad, Assault Squad or whatever doesn't - the Command Squad already has a Power Fist.

 

Power Fists are worth their points, but only if you don't overdo it. It's not necessary to equip every squad with one - that's sheer overkill.

[DarkGuard]

My power fists always miss half their attacks then roll 1 for the hit they do get, leading me to try out for power weapons. My specials can deal with tanks with MCs, so I prefer the ability to use more attacks in combat that ignore armour saves. However, the amount of power armour in my local area does mean that some sort of power combat weapon (fist or sword) is needed. I only tend to equip these weapons to my frontline Tactical Squads, the ones bearing the brunt of the assault, while the rearmost squad gets an extra CCW with his bolt pistol to boost attacks in combat.

[Ming]

My local meta is lots of opponents with ironclads, vens, MCs, Kans. All sergeants need powerfists. Meltabombs are useless. Always take a bolter with a fist, or stormbolter if allowed. I would, points allowed add in a combi melta or combiflamer, never plasma to a leader.

[Xeonic]

The following is just my opinion, there are many varied opinions on how to fit tactical squads, depending on how they are deployed. I would like to say there's no "right" option, just figure it out and use what works for you. How you equip your tactical squads can, without a question change your entire army's dynamic though, and the sergeant is key.

 

For the sarge

 

Fist on, most of the time. Combi-plas, only alone, say on a PC/PG squad that's holding an objective, but even then I'd rather run a fist, and I never pair a fist with plasma, as it's too easy to kill your own investment. Combi-flamer gets a definitive "yes!" from me, even though taking a normal flamer is free consider what else you can do with the special weapon guy and how often you fire a flamer on average through a 5-7 turn game, the combi flamer is worth the points because it's effective with multi hits, is an assault weapon, and it frees up the special weapon guy to say, carry a melta or plasma gun for more redundancy and killing power. Power weapons are okay if you're tight on points, but they don't change the dynamics of the squad a beast in the same way a fist does, and have to be paired with a pistol to be remotely effective.

 

What do the sergeant upgrades give you?

 

Chainsword, 2+1 attacks. It's free, but doesn't really give the squad anything fantastic. Chainswords look cool and the extra attack is niec but this option is pretty terrible overall. I've got sergeants with combis and chainswords just because it looks cool. :D

Power weapon, 2+1 armor ignoring S4 attacks at initiative. This is a fairly good option paired with meltabombs for a tank hunting combat squad. Against anything but AV14 though, a fist is superior and more effective overall, plus with a fist you can slip in a combi to get a second melta shot. It's worth noting that you save all of what, 5 pts over a fist taking meltabombs and a PW?

Power fist, 2 S8 I1 attacks. This will make the squad able to instant death HQs, score some CC kills vs anything, and generally is a requirement if you give up combat tactics...for anything. If you're using combat tactics properly you can do pretty good without, but even then I'd rather take one most of the time purely for the threat to most HQs it makes the sarge pose.

 

Meltabombs. It's worth it IMO if you give sarge no other options or a power weapon, otherwise no. Using meltabombs when you have a fist is giving up 3x S8 attacks, and is really only an option when autohitting a land raider in CC. Still, meltabombs are worth considering because they make the squad even more deadly to vehicles in CC than kraks alone. This is especially important for tank hunting combat squads, you could debark, fire melta+combimelta into a land raider, then assault with meltabombs with devestating results.

Plasma pistol. I suppose it could be worth it on a tank hunting sarge, but 1 S7 12" shot is hardly earth shattering, and for the points I'd rather take a combi melta. If paired with the fist it gives him the amazing option to kill himself and no bonus attack for the pain, though paired with a power weapon it does give him the attack, the overall lackluster performance of both options makes that a stretch. Plasma pistols -look- awesome though, and really, it's only 15 points. ;) I take them sometimes, for fun, mostly on a captain, and he does alright, but a captain doesn't kill the squads LD and CC potential when he blows himself up. Plus he can have a 2+ save, and feel no pain(command squad), as well as 3 wounds. The BS5 doesn't hurt either. :D

 

Combi weapons come in 3 flavors, they all cost the same amount of points, though they have varying usefulness and application. Combi plasma are nice, but they tend to in my experience blow up at all the wrong points in the game, unfortunately taking your sarge and all his effectiveness off the table with it. Still, combi plas can be effective, but one rapidfire of plasma rarely makes a dent in an elites squad as a plasmagun or cannon can over the course of a couple turns. Still, it's a relatively good option for cracking a light vehicle, but not as good as a meltagun. I have a couple combi-plas sergeants that have seen the light of the table and they rarely do as well as some other setups, but the proper use of that double strength rapidfire can do wonders, but generally a combi plas has all the trouble of a plasma gun(explodes, is rapid fire not assault), with the added disadvantage that you only get one shot with it, so you'd better make it a rapidfire. Otherwise why bother? When I take a combi plas I take no upgrades, or maybe meltabombs.

Combi flamer is a different animal. It's a single flamer template sure, but it ignores cover and if you can score many hits it can cause many kills. Consider that the other specials are much more effective than the flamer, but the flamer template is still fantastic to have. If you have the points, pairing one with a fist is fantastic, you can flamer a squad, fire pistols, and charge in to cause carnage. The normal flamer is free so you can potentially drop two templates on a squad for 10 pts. Good trade, in my point.

Combi melta is good for a tank hunting combat squad with a meltagun, paired with a fist or meltabombs, you can take on any armor. Give them Sicarius' Tank Hunters and they'll always make an impact. I'd only ever use a combi melta on sternguard or a sergeant in a tank hunting combat squad. Tank hunting isn't something tacticals are great at, mind you, but they can do it, and reasonably well.

 

The storm bolter. For the same price as a combi you get... 1 extra bolter shot per turn outside of 12", or when assaulting. This potentially adds up to a lot of extra shots per game. You have two options if you want to deploy storm bolters, using them alone(meltabombs optional) or in conjunction with a fist. On the one hand, the storm bolter/fist combi looks awesome, but on the other hand I'd normally rather take a combi for the same points for the impact it can make on the game. Still, it's a solid option, if not a great one. Bolt shots aren't super effective, but then again those extra shots can add up to extra kills, especially on the move. They're a pretty good choice for squads that will be sitting still 12-24" from their target, though. They'd be fantastic for devastator sergeants, but not only are devs a suboptimal choice IMO, dev sergeants should never shoot. Ever. ;)

 

Teleport homers are pretty self-explainatory. For a themed terminator force or one where you're using deep-striking termie HQs, sure, otherwise pass. Only useful for Terminators teleporting in so the points cost is a little daft.

 

For the rest of the squad, the upgrades are easy to break down into three categories, anti armor, anti infantry, and utility that can do a little of both. You can take two with different goals and either combat squad to deploy both at full effectiveness, or pack them all into a rhino and use the best for a given situation. I don't normally kit squads out specifically to hunt tanks, but if they pack weapons that can hurt at least light armor that's gravy, and gives them the option to shoot armor if a soft target isn't available. I like plasma because it can fit both roles(okay you can't hurt AV14, but you can glance 13 at least), though obviously it's more effective vs troops. It's worth noting that plasma guns cut through rhinos and speeders like a hot knife through butter.

 

Flamer is a purely anti-infantry choice, great because it's free, ignores cover, and can cause multiple hits. Think of it as a bolter that can hit multiple times, devestating if the target is clustered in cover, doubly deadly if they have a 5+ or worse sv and rely on cover. If it wasn't free I'd only take it vs hordes, but with the ability to score numerous hits on a target it's worth it vs most armies.

Meltaguns are anti-armor, but since they're assault 1, they can be fired on the move, or pre-assault, and being S8 they instant death most infantry, which is gravy. Giving one to a squad does -not- instantly change the focus of the squad to being an antitank squad, but the AP1 S8 melta shot gives the the option to deal some pain if they're there anyways. If you fail, there's always krak grenades and your fist or meltabomb, but 8+2D6 means it will do the job...sometimes. A single melta in a squad always seems to fail at critical moments though, but it's still a good upgrade and hardly wasted vs infantry where it will rarely fail to score a kill. The major downside is the range, meltaguns don't match up with bolters well, as any firing outside of rapid range will result in wasted points spent on the melta. On the other hand they pair up well with bolters fired on the move, up close and personal or bolt pistols. I always feel like I'm wasting all those useful bolter shots when I take a meltagun and shoot a tank, but I take them sometimes anyways because they're a good solid performer.

Plasma Gun is the most expensive upgrade, but it gives you pretty good utility as it's effective vs the widest variety of targets, S7 is enough to threaten armor values up to 13, and AP2 will ignore any infantry armor. Being rapidfire, it's an excellent match for the troop slaying bolters as well, and the extra range means it's a good match for most of the heavy weapons. It's worth noting that they can and do explode and kill the user almost as often as they kill enemies, but even given that, a solid choice overall.

 

Multi-melta, this free upgrade is okay, but I've had really bad luck with them. They are unlike the meltagun -not- a tank hunting weapon, they're not mobile enough for that. They are an area denial weapon, keeping tanks at bay, no tank dares get within 12" of one or more multi-meltas. I've seen them deployed as combat squads to hold an objective, but I personally don't like using my tactical squads for this. I've seen them as effective, but they're not for me.

Missile launcher lets you fire a frag missile template, useful vs light T4 troops, fantastic if they have bad saves. You can also fire a single S8 AP3 krak missile with really good range. It's worth taking because it makes the squad massively flexible and the couple-few shots per game I get out of them on average makes them -so- worth it over the extra bolter shots. This is the option I use when I'm short on points.

The Heavy Bolter is purely an anti infantry weapon. If it wasn't free it would never be worth taking, but a heavy bolter can put the real hurt on even marine equivalents. Good volume of shots, reasonable strength, and good AP value make it good vs a variety of troops, though it's really only a good choice targeting armies with lots of 4+ or worse saves. I take them on the odd occasion just for looking awesome, but they don't really add any utility to the squad, they just make the squad better at what it can do anyways...kill troops.

The personal favorite, the Plasma Cannon is the choice facing marines of any sort, the high strength means that you can glance AV13(one shot means you probably won't ;) ), and you wound pretty much any infantry on a 2+, and AP2 means you totally ignore their armor. The range is nice, but short of some of the other heavies, and the killing potential is tremendous, espescially vs targets that just deep striked or had their transport cratered and are bunched. If nothing else it is a great deep strike deterrent, at worst it forces a target that has just teleported in to run to spread out rather than shooting. I often field twin plasma cannon toting tactical squads, best 10 points I spend in my army in my opinion. This is -the- way to increase the raw killing power of the tactical squad, and it pairs well with a normal plasma gun. Plasma cannon can explode, but they're actually cheaper than a plasma gun and have a great deal more killing potential for half the chance to explode as a rapidfiring plasma gun.

The lascannon in my opinion is worth it if you plan to combat squad, otherwise it's not firing, which begs the question "why are you bringing a lascannon?" not too expensive on a tac squad, but since it's a long range high power shot that doesn't mesh well with the rest of the squad. I take a lascannon on occasion, when I'm fielding Sicarius. I combat sqadd off the melta and combi-melta fistysarge, I send their rhino off to hunt tanks while the lascannon sits in a point of vantage in a ruin or whatever to plink away. A lascannon that's effectively S10? Oh yes. Still, it's not a bad choice, but I don't use them often because they only do one thing well, kill tanks, and not only is the missile launcher quite nearly effective for zero cost, but it gives you the option at least to drop templates. Vs infantry there's nothing it can instant death that a missile launcher can't, and most MCs won't have a 2+ save anyways(tyrant and t-fex I think?). Of course a lascannon can pen a raider where a missile launcher can't, but never ever rely on one lascannon to shoot land raiders. ;)

 

Thus my favorite tac squad setup is 10x men, sergeant with fist, plasma gun, plasma cannon, rhino. Really versatile, and not too expensive points wise, most of my lists have one, or more likely two squads kitted like this.

I often field tactical squads with other setups for other reasons(HEAVY BOLTERS ARE AWESUM!) though I tend to focus them on the infantry killing role, I bring other counters for armor.

[wazzakanoo]

thank you internet!!!!!!

thank you very, very much!

i have decided to use aa combi-flamer?plasma pistol.

i am still a little bit iffy on the power fidt, but i may use it because over half of my 40k games are played against imperial guard.

[Giga]

My forward-moving tac squads usually have a sergeant with powerfist and sometimes sergeant with powerfist+combiflamer.

 

My objective-camping tac squad usually has a sergeant with chainsword and bolt pistol.

[mowglie]

My objective-camping tac squad usually has a sergeant with chainsword and bolt pistol.

 

This is the bit I never really understand. Is it because it looks cool? Is it because it's traditional?

 

Why would you take PW/BP or Chainsword/BP over a bolter?

[Giga]

Why would you take PW/BP or Chainsword/BP over a bolter?

Power Weapon/Chainsword + Bolt Pistol means you get an additional attack for having two close combat weapons. Meaning the sergeant gets a base 3 attacks, which actually adds a bit to the defensive/offensive capabilities of the unit.

 

Power fists, lightning claws, and thunder hammers can never claim the additional attack unless you're packing a pair, hence it's more logical to use them in conjunction with a bolter.

[Xeonic]

True, it is worth noting that those 3 attacks is 30% as much as the rest of the squad combined in CC.

My PW sergeant/vet models all have pistols, it doesn't make any sense otherwise, if you're using the power weapon without the pistol bonus you're hobbling yourself on purpose. I have no idea why you'd do that, power weapons aren't super fantastic to begin with, and you'll lose most of your dice along the way regardless, so why cripple yourself by dropping 25% of your attacks in CC for one bolt shot. :huh:

 

As to taking a chainsword over a bolter, I do most of the time, the one bolt shot is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but neither is the attack costing me much. Rule of cool states therefore that sarge with no other upgrades gets a chainsword. Because I think it looks better. B)

 

I run naked sergeants...never. Because my naked sergeants are dev sergeants. All my tactical sergeants are kitted to boost the squad's fighting power or role, or make them better at what they're bad at, or do something they couldn't. Which sound silly in text, but it makes a lot of sense to me. ;)

[Wildfire]

I almost always go powerfist and bolter. Perhaps powerfist and combi-melta if there's a meltagun in the squad, or bolt pistol and power weapon if I'm struggling for points or am really sure I want to combat squad every time. But I'm also pretty aggressive with my tacs, and like throwing them into CC.