Heresy books stepping on each other's toes?

[EPK]

I just got through the Council of Nikea part of A Thousand Sons. Now, I really thought the Emperor was going to allow the Librarian programs to continue, just at a very regulated status. I was totally thrown for a loop when he totally outlawed them.

 

In Fallen Angels however, the time line takes us up to the events where Horus's treachery has already become known - therefore placing it after the Council of Nikea's ruling - yet there are still Librarians (Zahariel and Israfael - neither of which ever mention the ruling stopping them from being Librarians).

 

So, either they made a mistake and this newest book now discredits others before it (namely Fallen Angels), or something big is going to happen with one of the upcoming books to force the Emperor to reinstate the Librarian programs. This "something big" however, has to happen BEFORE Horus falls to Chaos.

 

Seems like a retcon type problem - but how could that happen to books so close together.

[EPK]

On top of that, 12 different Chapter's Chief Librarians stood up at the Council of Nikea. One of them was noted as being from the Dark Angels. If that was the case, that would place Israfael at the Council of Nikea, an give him no reason to continue being a Librarian nor stop him from disbanding the rest of his Dark Angel Librarians.

[Lady_Mournival]

Not all the Legions listened to the council of Nikea, I can name 2 (besides what you just mentioned) - Space Wolves and White Scars.

[Pcm979]

Which is really hilarious when you think about it- Russ must have been a colossal hypocrite to ignore the judgement of the trial he asked for.

[Kizzdougs]

I don't think the Dark Angels would really care what was ordered at Magnus's trial. The Lion always did his own thing and he is far from the most dedicated or loyal Primarch. His actions in "Fallen Angels" proves this. He is more interested in becoming Warmaster than he is in protecting the Imperium. He sees the Heresy as the perfect chance to further his own ambitions.

I can think of at least three other loyalist Primarchs who would be far better Warmasters: Sanguinius, Guilliman and Dorn.

 

 

I think the Lion would have appointed a new chief librarian after Israfael was dismissed.

[hmk17]

The real trick though is that the Rune Priests were not established by the Librarium that Magnus set up. They are their own independent group that seems to be more stable than the Librarium. Russ had no reason to trust anything that Magnus supported, much less created. Russ wanted the hammer dropped on Magnus' works, the Librarium was just that and it got slammed hard. This also hit every other chapter who had taken part of the Librarium program. To his eyes, the ruling effected everyone, but him since his legion had developed their own approach to the energies of the warp.

 

Despite being an incredibly powerful psyker, along with a fair amount of his brothers, Russ was distrustful of Magnus' practices and methods. (with good reason I might note) He also was of the opinion that after the Emperor, he was his own authority on any subject.

 

Since Thousand Sons, I'd wondered what would have re-instated the Librarium. The answer turned out to be simple, Guilliman. In the creation of the Codex Astartes, he could have easily repealed the Council of Nikea as a part of it. Gives added weight to why certain Primimarchs opposed the Codex. In the book Salamander, the 3rd Co. encounter a squad of the Marines Malevolent on board a derelict ship. When the Malevolent see the Salamander's Librarian, they react with disgust remarking "that their chapter actually follows the edict of Nikea". The Salamander's response alludes to something changing that position.

 

Russ, opposing the codex, would have strengthened his position that the Librarium was barely masked sorcery. He also knew that his Rune Priests were effective against psykers and sorcery. Following his logic, we see him give sanction to something he saw as untainted by warp-craft.

[EPK]

Good points all and I especially like theory hmk17, that makes perfect sense.

 

I spoke with a friend about this yesterday, though I still see it as fishy that Chief Librarians would not follow the edict of the Emperor, beloved by all, they left it vague enough for now to simply write themselves out of it (ie. some Chapters didn't listen).

 

Perhaps it is simply a case of telling your teenager that they can not drink alcohol whatsoever (until the proper legal age) but you know they will anyway. You can only hope that they will be more responsible given your censure of such an activity. The Emperor knows they are going to do it, but given his edict, at least they will do it in a very cautious manner... Thousand Sons however is a different story.

[Brother Tancred]

I think it may have been the events at Signus Prime were the Blood Angels faced the hordes of chaos deamons which was a first. Throught the crusade there has been occations when small deamon infestations were found and even the Emperor warned his sons about the horrors of the warp. But Signus was the first time such an army of deamons was seen and after hearing of this, plus the fact Horus had sided with the Chaos Gods the Emperor realised the best way to face these threats were the librarians. Fight fire with fire as it were, use the warp against the traitors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The real trick though is that the Rune Priests were not established by the Librarium that Magnus set up. They are their own independent group that seems to be more stable than the Librarium. Russ had no reason to trust anything that Magnus supported, much less created. Russ wanted the hammer dropped on Magnus' works, the Librarium was just that and it got slammed hard. This also hit every other chapter who had taken part of the Librarium program. To his eyes, the ruling effected everyone, but him since his legion had developed their own approach to the energies of the warp.

 

Just calling it something different doesn't change what it is: a trained body of psykers within the Legions. The Rune Priests are what the Librarians are, and arguing otherwise means that the White Scars shouldn't be affected either, because they used Storm Seers, not Librarians. It almost makes me think that Russ got out of splitting his Legion by calling the Space Wolves a Wolf Host, which is an entirely different thing than a Legion, therefore the split didn't apply to them.

 

It doesn't make his actions seem heroic at all, it just makes him seem petty, spiteful and hypocritical. He's the little kid that took everyone elses toy's away, but still wanted to be able to play with his own.

 

I especially love the hypocrisy that when he witnesses a Thousand Son undergo the Flesh Change (or whatever it was called) his first thought is "sorcery! Burn the Witch!" when his own Legion suffers from the Curse of the Wulfen which has nothing to do with sorcery, and when they witness the abominations created by the Raven Guard, they feel pity for them, instead of jumping to conclusions, and assuming warp-craft was involved.

In short, Russ seems to stereotype everyone he meets. If he likes you when you first meet him, then you can do no wrong and you'll literally need to bash him around the head with proof to convince him otherwise (i.e. Horus), or he doesn't like you, at which point everything you do is evil incarnate, even if you're doing something he or one of his friends is doing right now (i.e. Magnus; Flesh Change/Raven Guard).

[LoneSniperSG]

Which is really hilarious when you think about it- Russ must have been a colossal hypocrite to ignore the judgement of the trial he asked for.

 

I think it's because of a belief difference. The Space Wolves believe that the Rune Priests are given their powers by Fenris herself, not from the nightmare warp. Fenrisians are children of thunder, after all. If you have that philosphy and suddenly the guy next to you can throw lightining bolts, you probably don't think of some hellish daemonic power behind it.

 

Just calling it something different doesn't change what it is: a trained body of psykers within the Legions. The Rune Priests are what the Librarians are, and arguing otherwise means that the White Scars shouldn't be affected either, because they used Storm Seers, not Librarians. It almost makes me think that Russ got out of splitting his Legion by calling the Space Wolves a Wolf Host, which is an entirely different thing than a Legion, therefore the split didn't apply to them.

 

It doesn't make his actions seem heroic at all, it just makes him seem petty, spiteful and hypocritical. He's the little kid that took everyone elses toy's away, but still wanted to be able to play with his own.

 

Actually, Rune Priests and Librarians are two different things. Rune Priests powers are more shamanistic and nature-based, while an Ultrasmurf Librarian is.. well, what a Librarian should be. He curses machines, reads ancient chapter texts for inspiration to stir fire and lightining within him, and comparable to Jaws of the World Wolf, he has Vortex of Doom. Lucky guy even gets to Gate, where as Rune Priests do not.

 

Is there a lot of difference? not in the grand scheme, but there may have been enough of a difference between them to matter.

 

 

I especially love the hypocrisy that when he witnesses a Thousand Son undergo the Flesh Change (or whatever it was called) his first thought is "sorcery! Burn the Witch!" when his own Legion suffers from the Curse of the Wulfen which has nothing to do with sorcery, and when they witness the abominations created by the Raven Guard, they feel pity for them, instead of jumping to conclusions, and assuming warp-craft was involved.

In short, Russ seems to stereotype everyone he meets. If he likes you when you first meet him, then you can do no wrong and you'll literally need to bash him around the head with proof to convince him otherwise (i.e. Horus), or he doesn't like you, at which point everything you do is evil incarnate, even if you're doing something he or one of his friends is doing right now (i.e. Magnus; Flesh Change/Raven Guard).

 

Well, if you were him and you saw a KNOWN sorcerer-marine change into something weird, what would you say? And then if you witnessed a son of Corax who was all screwed up, much like your own curse, what would you say?

 

Put yourself in his head, dude. It's not that hard.

[Leebe]

Concerning Rune Priests in the Space Wolves, I always just pegged it as simple hypocrisy. Why not give one of the stauchest opponents of psykers and sorcery their own psyker group? It's an imperfection of their character that they're willing to blindly believe that Rune Priests function any differently than Librarians (beyond simple aesthetics, as evidently the way a Rune Priest shows up in the Warp is somewhat different from a Thousand Son Librarian, going by the TS book). And, in the sense of making a complex legion, making them flawed and blind to their own double standards just makes them more interesting.

 

So yeah, I'm pretty much with Caerolion on this one.

[Candleshoes]

Just because they were at the council and were were present for the edict, doesn't mean they listened or changed.

 

Each Legion had its own justification, which is why Russ never blinked twice at his own librarians.

[LoneSniperSG]

Just because they were at the council and were were present for the edict, doesn't mean they listened or changed.

 

Each Legion had its own justification, which is why Russ never blinked twice at his own librarians.

 

PLUS there is that. The Space Wolves have a deep history of doing whatever they want. They don't follow Gulliman's book, and yet they're arguably more devastating in their operations than the Ultramarines are.

 

Now suddenly there's a fluff issue with Space Wolves ignoring someone? It's what they do.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just because they were at the council and were were present for the edict, doesn't mean they listened or changed.

 

Each Legion had its own justification, which is why Russ never blinked twice at his own librarians.

 

PLUS there is that. The Space Wolves have a deep history of doing whatever they want. They don't follow Gulliman's book, and yet they're arguably more devastating in their operations than the Ultramarines are.

 

Now suddenly there's a fluff issue with Space Wolves ignoring someone? It's what they do.

 

Who's saying it's a fluff issue? We're saying it makes them seem like jerks. The problem is that they openly defied a direct order from the Emperor, and then declared someone else Traitor for doing the exact same thing! Russ is the king of double-standards. Doing something is perfectly fine, as long as he likes you. If he doesn't, everything you do is evil. The Space Wolves deluded themselves into thinking that because it was them doing it, it was perfectly fine, but everyone else doing the same thing was a corrupted monstrosity who should be horribly killed. He's as arrogant as Magnus.

 

Actually, Rune Priests and Librarians are two different things. Rune Priests powers are more shamanistic and nature-based, while an Ultrasmurf Librarian is.. well, what a Librarian should be. He curses machines, reads ancient chapter texts for inspiration to stir fire and lightining within him, and comparable to Jaws of the World Wolf, he has Vortex of Doom. Lucky guy even gets to Gate, where as Rune Priests do not.

 

Is there a lot of difference? not in the grand scheme, but there may have been enough of a difference between them to matter.

 

What does how they dress up their powers have to do with it? The Emperor ordered that no Space Marines are to use psychic powers. Shamanistic or not, Rune Priests use psychic powers, and as such should have been disbanded. The White Scar Storm Seers explain their powers in much the same way the Space Wolves do, being a control over nature spirits and such, yet they at least recognised the truth behind their explanations, that they are indeed psykers. Instead, the Space Wolves seem to believe that they have a super-world, which is the only one in the galaxy which has these powers, and yet any other explanation from anyone else means that they summon daemons and are utterly evil.

 

The one difference between Rune Priests and Librarians is that Rune Priests use mysticism to explain their powers, while Librarians use "science". End effect? Nothing, other than the Rune Priests deluding themselves as to the source of their powers.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

dont bother arguing for russ around these parts, its a waste of time/patience.

 

until we have a good authour or unbiased source address this, its just going to be the "ARRGH" "BY MY BEARD" sterotypical nonsense from this crowd. let them have their few months, and when the whole story is shown, how many of these type of posts will simply disapeer.

 

WLK

[Rain]

Argh! By my beard!

 

Seriously though, you gotta admit WLK, it's a bit weird that given that the Emprah has banned all psykers as of the current fluff that the SW show up with a bunch of psykers to kill a bunch of other guys for being psykers. Reminds me of some stuff that goes on in real life actually but I'm not going to go into that.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think you'll find the Emperor/Horus was the one declaring the Thousand Sons traitor, the Wolves were sent in to deal with it. But every single warrior a psyker? A little dangerous no? Especially after the mutations are witnessed. The Wulfen are tolerated because they had use in the Legion. I also think it has something to do with belief, can't quite explain it.

 

Why wasn't the Emperor more explicit? Why did he say Librarium, when the Wolves never maintained them? Perhaps there was reasoning for this but we won't find out until Prospero Burns is released, then there will be two sides of the same story and you can make your mind up.

[Rain]

I think you'll find the Emperor/Horus was the one declaring the Thousand Sons traitor, the Wolves were sent in to deal with it. But every single warrior a psyker? A little dangerous no? Especially after the mutations are witnessed. The Wulfen are tolerated because they had use in the Legion. I also think it has something to do with belief, can't quite explain it.

 

Why wasn't the Emperor more explicit? Why did he say Librarium, when the Wolves never maintained them? Perhaps there was reasoning for this but we won't find out until Prospero Burns is released, then there will be two sides of the same story and you can make your mind up.

 

That's because the fluff was retconned. It used to, you know, make sense, but logic is considered great heresy by GW. Anyhoo, it was the Librarius departments that were disbanded, it's just that Wolf Priests are basically the same thing as Libbies (warp use wise) so it becomes a "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" kind of thing. The original fluff was that only sorcery was banned, which made a lot more sense as neither Wolf Priests nor Libbies are use sorcery unless they become corrupted.

[Hfran Morkai]

That's because the fluff was retconned. It used to, you know, make sense, but logic is considered great heresy by GW. Anyhoo, it was the Librarius departments that were disbanded, it's just that Wolf Priests are basically the same thing as Libbies (warp use wise) so it becomes a "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" kind of thing. The original fluff was that only sorcery was banned, which made a lot more sense as neither Wolf Priests nor Libbies are use sorcery unless they become corrupted.

 

And here we come to the interesting part. The previous fluff was meant to be from an unbiased, stating the facts point of view. (From what I remember McNiell wrote this as well...might be wrong) A Thousand Sons was from the point of view of Ahriman, whereas Prospero Burns will be from the Space Wolves point of view and hopefully they will piece together and provide something more interesting and concrete. For all we know the Emperor pulled Russ aside and told him to carry on training his Rune Priests.

 

I'm fairly sure Abnett will have a good reason for the Wolves using Rune Priests, though I do know he isn't a Space Wolf fan, which could be disastrous. Interestingly from who's viewpoint do you reckon he will pick?

[Rain]

Actually, the psyker ban is from the HH artbook written way before A Thousand Sons and also from a third person standpoint. As for Abnett, it's pretty obvious he is going to be writing from a Wolf standpoint, that was the whole aim of the book, to show their side of the story, and though he hasn't written about Wolves before, you should be happy, he is a far better writer than McNiell, and is generally much better at showing characters' motivations so he should do a good job showing exactly why the Wolves saw it necessary to do what they did.

[Hfran Morkai]

Actually, the psyker ban is from the HH artbook written way before A Thousand Sons and also from a third person standpoint. As for Abnett, it's pretty obvious he is going to be writing from a Wolf standpoint, that was the whole aim of the book, to show their side of the story, and though he hasn't written about Wolves before, you should be happy, he is a far better writer than McNiell, and is generally much better at showing characters' motivations so he should do a good job showing exactly why the Wolves saw it necessary to do what they did.

 

Must be my mind fuzzy, swore it was McNiell who wrote it in Collected Visions... :wub:

 

Indeed, but the point is I believe Abnett has previously stated that he doesn't like the Wolves and if that is the case I'm a bit concerned about him writing it. But so long as he doesn't portray Russ simply as a big bully I should be fine. But I think it is too early to pass judgment on Nikea, perhaps why the books were originally going to be released pretty much simultaneously.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Actually, the psyker ban is from the HH artbook written way before A Thousand Sons and also from a third person standpoint. As for Abnett, it's pretty obvious he is going to be writing from a Wolf standpoint, that was the whole aim of the book, to show their side of the story, and though he hasn't written about Wolves before, you should be happy, he is a far better writer than McNiell, and is generally much better at showing characters' motivations so he should do a good job showing exactly why the Wolves saw it necessary to do what they did.

 

if we go by the artbook then the Emperor is enraged of Magnus, and swears destruction upon him...which was pretty much the opposite of how Ahriman desricbes the proceedings in A Thousand Sons.

 

and ahriman faints in these proceedings, then awakens to hear his master speak. so he heard NONE of the argument against sorcery...does this pass for unbiased facts among the Thousand Sons, or does MacNeil even make a attempt at it?

 

and alot of this situation strikes me as weird, and i am trying to reserve judgment until the couter book is released...though by the final chapters of "Mea Culpa"...i mean A Thousand Sons its pretty clear that whatever the Thousand Sons might have started as, and that is up for debate, they end up as traitors.

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

]I do know he isn't a Space Wolf fan, which could be disastrous.

 

Judging by the extract, it seems very 'Wolf-focused,'

 

He doesn't like marines in general, but Horus Rising and Legion were still epic.

[Ashe Darke]

See problem here is that you thought the Dark Angels were properly loyal. Look at who the Librarians were with, the Caliban group, who felt Neglected by the Lion. They were left to sit on a world that resented the Imperium so maybe following what their higher ups said on a silly topic felt like another kick in the teeth they didn't need and so they didn't follow it straight away.

 

This also assumes that they stuck to every command, or even got the message by that point. The DA representative could have been present and 'forgot' or 'misunderstood' what was said. Or maybe he just intentionally took a long time getting home. Your point seems to revolve around the idea that Imperium worked perfectly, everybody listened and did as they were told because they were loyal to the core which just wasn't the case.

[Hrvat]

Over the years the Council of Nikea background has changed.

 

In the IA:Thousand Sons it is mentioned that Sorcery is forbiden but Librarians continue to function as normal. Than came the collected visions that threw everything on it's head by stating that now eveything is banned. I guess GW writters are aware of both and some chose to take emphasis of one over another or maybe Abnet read both accound and mixed them up while writting.

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat