Heresy books stepping on each other's toes?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Funny how Mortarion is anti-pysker yet the original fluff has Typhon as his chief librarian.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Funny how Mortarion is anti-pysker yet the original fluff has Typhon as his chief librarian.

 

Yeah... but... uhh... Typhon wasn't a Librarian! He, um.... channelled the... swamp spirits of Barbarus! Yeah, that's it! He channelled swamp spirits! Totally different thing than a psyker!

 

And as for him being a Librarian, someone has to keep the Death Guards books in order! The fact that he had psyker-like powers (that totally weren't! Don't make me explain the swamp spirit thing again!) is a complete coincidence, I swear!

[EPK]

But so long as he doesn't portray Russ simply as a big bully I should be fine.

 

Even in A Thousand Sons they hinted that there was more to Russ than his outward persona.

 

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And yes, of course Propsero Burns will come from the SW point of view and be skewed to their opinions just as A Thousand Sons had parts that made you feel for their cause (of course the immense sacrifices they made towards the end were totally in a different ball park).

 

SW fan or not though, from a logical standpoint, you must see that in their most basic function Rune Preists and Librarians are Space Marine pskers and therefore more or less the same.

 

You SW fans must be able acknowledge the hypocrisy in Russ's acquisitions against Magnus - for one, because that's the whole point the author is trying to make, which is fairly clear. Secondly because Russ is way too intelligent - being a Primarch - to not understand the connection.

 

But, I suppose we must also realize it was not whether a legion simply employed psykers but rather the degree to which they used them and the abilities they had. The Thousand Sons did not have a "Librarian Department" per say, EVERY one of their Astartes was a pysker (up for debate)*. Each Fellowship was lead by a High Ranking Librarian more or less. It is that difference I believe which Russ and others saw as alarming. One Thousand Son was able to bring a Wolf Lord and his brothers to their knees on Shrike - that is alarming.

 

Now, I believe the Emperor realized hypocritical charges brought up at Nikea and thus he did not censure just Magnus and the Thousand sons, but ALL Librarians. Of course, being the Emperor, he probably also realized that not all his Sons would take his edict so rigidly.

 

But this SW vs. the world banter is a bit off topic...

 

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Sure some of you say "well maybe this chapter didn't follow the edict", which will probably be the easiest explanation, but I would counter by saying that not following the EMPEROR'S edict can but you in a very precarious situation. Had the Heresy not happened, would the Emperor had turned his wrath to these legions, like the Dark Angels, that did not cease their Librarian department?

 

Edit: Added (up for debate)*

[Hfran Morkai]

Don't worry, I'm aware the Wolf book will be skewed, and I'll treat it as such ;)

 

Something happened that pretty much made the use of psykers necessary to the Legions and later, chapters.

 

Whether Legions maintained their Librarium's after the council is unseen except by the Thousand Sons, we have reason to believe the Wolves were still actively using their powers though there is little proof of this, Wyrdmake used them to counter Ahriman and bring a Legion that had supposedly betrayed the Emperor and endangered the Imperium to justice. We cannot say that Wyrdmake was the norm for Rune Priests either, we do not have enough information.

 

And I remember something about Russ not wanting to split his Legion, it was one of the smallest and when they tried doing it the Successor's were destroyed.

[EPK]

Don't worry, I'm aware the Wolf book will be skewed, and I'll treat it as such ;)

 

You make it sound like I said "skewed" as being a bad thing. It's not. It's how all these books are written and that's what gives them character.

[Hellios]

But, I suppose we must also realize it was not whether a legion simply employed psykers but rather the degree to which they used them and the abilities they had. The Thousand Sons did not have a "Librarian Department" per say, EVERY one of their Astartes was a pysker. Each Fellowship was lead by a High Ranking Librarian more or less. It is that difference I believe which Russ and others saw as alarming. One Thousand Son was able to bring a Wolf Lord and his brothers to their knees on Shrike - that is alarming.

 

Just to clarify not every 1kson was a psyker, however rather than psykers being rare individuals they were fairly common and also being a psyker can range from being able to crumple a titan with a single thought to just being unusually lucky (without being aware of having powers) and everything else in between.

[Aqui]

It's said on various sites that not all 1k sons were psychic, as when Ahriman cast the Rubric, those who weren't psychic were cast to dust and the souls were bound in the armour (from what I have read, it would seem that the vast majority were turned into Rubric marines).

 

However, I think that the situation is due to more than one source being used for the HH books, hence all the contradictions rather that it being deliberate.

 

I will be happy to be proven wrong though ;)

[Hfran Morkai]

But the entire population of Prospero had some psychic ability, I swear...

 

That's why the stupid psychic predators wiped most of them out, and waiters knew what you were going to order before you did...

[EPK]

Fair enough, not every Thousand Son was a psyker yet they were all effected by the flesh change so they must have had at least some latent psyker ability.

 

But that really doesn't change my point. Those who were Psykers used their abilities wantonly and like I said each Fellowship, or Company, was led by a Librarian in sorts.

 

And as Mikal pointed out, the book did allud to the citizens of Prospero all having some psychic abilities.

 

I understand the Rubric story, but that could be easily retconned to say that those whose power was not strong enough were reduced to dust.

[EPK]

Tad off topic, but related to Flesh change... perhaps that is a possible explanation for the lost legions and their primarchs? Perhaps they were subject to the their own mutations which were just too extreme to quell. Perhaps even their Primarchs were subject to the change, or it simply drove them insane with anger to see their sons in anguish and not being able to help. And in the end, for the good of the fledgling Imperium the Emperor decided they all simply needed to be erased.

[Candleshoes]

Mikal, you are right, don't let the others get you down.

 

The majority of the population of Prospero were in some way touched by the warp, as you pointed out, was the only way human evolution allowed for survival. As far as if every Marine was a psyker, I think they all had some connection, but some were far far morepowerful than the others. A base sensitivity would have been present (think High elves in fantasy, few can wield the winds of magic, all feel and appreciate it in some small way).

 

People in this disscussion are forgetting that Magnus' Legion was a step apart from the diluted librarians that held station in the loyalist forces. Their abilities were terrifying, as was the price they payed from their flesh. How easy was it for other legions to point their fingers and say Witch at their outward displays that DWARFED what the most powerful Librarians of other Legions thought possible. Yes, in a neutral way, it is fair to say they all wielded the warp, but it was far too easy to blame all wrong on the brother that felt so blindly he was right.

 

Would the Emperor's decree not be heeded by the other legions? None felt that they were anywhere near where Magnus was in terms of knowledge, comfort or understanding of the warp. His acts and that of his sons were alien to them ... and in a notion, they were far too liberal with their powers, rather than to be respectful. This line of thinking is how we get the "Trial of Magnus" perception, as that was what the council and the Emperor were sitting down to look at. It was one primarch and one legion who asked the questions, who wanted the answers, not the group of loyalist librarians who were like children in their own fields of knowledge. I could, and I think McNeill to some extent, argued that deep down, Russ, the Khan and many others firmly believed that their legions librarians used a different type of "magic", call it natural, call it "elemental" call it whatever you want, they deemed their power given by their tradition and surrondings, in complete ignorance. All that matters, is that they made a distinction from what they used, from what the Thousand Sons could harness and unleash . Fear can do terrible things, especially amongst brothers who deem one of their number is different. I truly don't think the other legions felt that the decree was aimed at them or their "natural" way of harnessing energy, it was aimed at stopping the violent potential of one legion. The trial was a spectacle for Magnus ... why would the result be for anyone but him?

[Aqui]

Fair enough, not every Thousand Son was a psyker yet they were all effected by the flesh change so they must have had at least some latent psyker ability.

 

But that really doesn't change my point. Those who were Psykers used their abilities wantonly and like I said each Fellowship, or Company, was led by a Librarian in sorts.

 

And as Mikal pointed out, the book did allud to the citizens of Prospero all having some psychic abilities.

 

I understand the Rubric story, but that could be easily retconned to say that those whose power was not strong enough were reduced to dust.

 

That would make more sense for me.

[EPK]

The trial was a spectacle for Magnus ... why would the result be for anyone but him?

 

That's a good point. In fact, is it coincidence that the Thousand Sons were the last to appear and the "council" started almost immediately. We don't even know if the whole thing was orchestrated for Magnus's benefit. It could have been like a intervention and Magnus was the alcoholic. How could the Emperor come across as convincing if he told his son, "you can not drink, but your brothers can". No, to make it convincing in a hope to at least stymie Magnus's delving he had to do it across the board and of course he could have as easily said to his other sons once Magnus was gone, to simply keep moving forward.