Commander Dante

[Brother_Dan'l]

I'd imagine it's because he is (and so we are) supposed to be smart enough at this point not to attack things that can do him with a single hit. There are lots of units in a BA army capable of dealing with anything that hits at S8+ in CC. Dante should be running around slaughtering infantry units and IC who aren't loaded up with 3++ saves and Thunder Hammers.

 

And honestly the game would be a lot better if ID was shooting only and Eternal Warrior never existed.

[Kapitalist-Pig]

Honestly, IMO Dante is the best HQ for an army. I look at the Sanguinor (hate this thing) and I cannot get behind him. Yes I understand the extra attack within 6 inch arguement on top of a mini cpt from a sergeant. But that is where it stops for him. Meph.... what can I say he is a beast, but he does not really help your army. He is a huge distraction. Any game I am in and have played meph, all my opp. did for the first turn or two, depending on how far away they were, was shoot at him. That is the extent of the helpfullness that Meph adds, he is a giant target.

 

I have always thought that Dante should have EW, its his fluff, he is the oldest living space marine. He is also a chapter master, that means he is suppose to be really hard to kill right? Not that it is impossible but really hard. Hit and run with any unit he is with is golden, I have on more then one occasion crippled someones army in two turns because I lock Dante, Priest and squad in a combat on my turn kill most of his stuff, then get charged by another squad and at the end pull them out just to recharge another unit or two in with him. It is all about postioning. Addtionally, he allows you to play an all drop army that can be very devistating to any list.

 

Only thing I think is a waste is the Sanguinary Guard as troops, seriously the only reason he has that rule is that GW wants you to buy and use these new shiny models with a tried and true element of BA armies. Think about it, wasn't it Dante and Corb's in every army in 4th? Maybe even before that in third when the Paper "codex" came out IIRC.

[lunchb0x]

I love Dante just for the fluff, and the fun of running him instead/with Mephiston. Most people locally ignore Dante, fine by me! :cry:

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Ok, i'll admit i'm wrong there, but im just offering a possible 'plausible' answer as to why he doesn't seem to stack up for EW (which i actually think he should have, all cracks at his age aside). Why do you think he lacks EW?

 

Because Ward is a twit. I don't need to justify poor rules design with good fluff or an attempt at it; good rules design should flow from good fluff.

 

And I hope I don't sound like I am attacking you. It's all about the Mat man.

[Captain Idaho]

Reading through this thread makes me sad. People have missed the whole point of the special rules in the game. Eternal Warrior is there to denote tenacity, stubborness and pure grit, a nod to the background of 40K, where the designers use the rule to represent such things. They aren't saying that Calgar or Lysander can take a lascannon to the face and live!

 

And if extreme longevity means they should be Eternal Warriors, well in that case every Eldar should have it, as well as Chaos Marines.

 

The designers wanted Dante to be different to the Sanguinor and Mephiston, and even Astorath. I think they succeeded really. Sure I don't like the rules for his death mask, as I think they should effect the unit he is against rather than a single character, but over all Dante is fairly good. He can be given Furious Charge to make him fearsome in assaults, and being an IC grants him more protection than the doom sayers think.

 

Remember that making the enemies nasty Special character take a bunch of characteristic decreases will be very annoying!

[Ironfather_cogface]

No harm done. :)

 

Its utterly ridiculous that he doesn't get EW. My old housemate (blood angels) and i (eldar) play frequently, and we've sorta made it a house rule that he has EW. Theres something very wrong when a janitor and a kitchenhand with a starcannon can kill one of the imperium's finest with a lucky shot.

[Demoulius]

Reading through this thread makes me sad. People have missed the whole point of the special rules in the game. Eternal Warrior is there to denote tenacity, stubborness and pure grit, a nod to the background of 40K, where the designers use the rule to represent such things. They aren't saying that Calgar or Lysander can take a lascannon to the face and live!

 

Captain Idaho, thats not what EW means, thats what FNP means....and it means exactly that. they CAN take a lascannon in the face and survive. a titan can stand ontop of them and they live (ruleswise anyway)

 

EW means that your rediculasy hard to kill. so hard even that not even a strength D (from apocalypse) which is a anti-titan weapon mind you....can kill you...

 

so lets recap that: a weapon that is fired at walking cathedrals and the like and blows them up with succes cant kill a human beeing (astartas or not) with this special rule ^_^

 

fluffwise there isent a reason why anyone would have this (aside from otherworldy stuff like deamons if you ask me) but they put it in the game anyway.

 

now if you look at whos got it (astartes wise)

calgar - pretty young compared to Dante. sure hes a good commander but at the 2nd war for Armageddon he conceded overall command to Dante. so assuming he did that for practical reasons we can assume Dante is just a good commander if not a better one then Calgar. so hes got the same criteria (or even better) then Calgar, yet not has the rule....

 

Lysander - survived a long time of torture as captive to chaos marines. surviving it by sheer force of will and determination to return the favor. then went back and gave them a ass-wooping. is only 1st company captain though. does Dante share these traits? well he wasent tortured (that i know off) for a long time but does he kick ass? his fluff states he always leads from the front so that would be a sounding yes. is Dante stubborn/have force of will? in his fluff it states he puts off dying because he thinks the emperor himself might need him....

 

how does this man NOT have EW?

[Captain Idaho]

Feel no pain represents the individual not feeling pain and continuing on without it in some places but we see medics get it for their squad and Sicarius has a cloak that passes the rule to him. This means it also is used as a game mechanic to represent something being harder to kill or wounded individuals being pathced up and brought back into the fight. It could theoretically be used to represent tenacity of course, but I can't think of a unit of or model with the rule that the rule is intended to represent.

 

Eternal warrior means the character just won't go down no matter what injury you inflict on him/her/it! You have to hammer the creature to pieces and then break up those pieces and burn them, then eat the ashes and scatter the excremental remains on different planets, to finish the creature. That is represented in a single wound not inflicting enough damage on the model to finish them off in a single go, rather instead you have to strip the wounds off them 1 point at a time...

 

Wishing Dante had the rule seems like it is just a case of Codex envy, I believe. We always seem to compare the models on the table top to their peers, and looking at single combat between them being the most commonly used one. When we see Grimnar, Lysander and Calgar duking it out we know they can't be instant killed, so Dante looks like he would come short in a solo battle against them on the table top, but we all know the rules don't neccessarily convert directly from the back ground material, so it shouldn't really matter.

 

If we look at Dante for what he can do, he becomes much more desirable. Calgar, Grimnar and Lysander each have a crucial weakness that Dante doesn't have on the table top, and that is mobility. For their points cost, you have to fork out points on them having either a Drop Pod borne escort or a Landraider. The mobility of Dante really does off set his weakness to instant death, as you have a better chance of favourably lining up the combats to avoid that hidden powerfist.

 

Dante doesn't quite fit the bill for either of FNP or EW in his fluff. I challenge anyone to list the actions of Dante that show him to be more tenacious than the average Space Marine, or even the average Blood Angel.

 

He is best represented on the table top as a proffessional tough nut, wading in against the baying hoards and slaying them, before cutting down opposing heros in a flurry of blows. I believe we have that, with his 6 Master-crafted Power weapon attacks on the charge, and ease of getting Furious Charge in a Blood Angels army (not to mention FNP) making him an extremely offensive character. He can charge into some extremely hard independent characters and win too, with the reduced wounds, WS, Initiative and attacks weakening them sufficiently.

 

Sure Abbaddon still has the advantage, but he is Abbaddon after all!

 

fluffwise there isent a reason why anyone would have this (aside from otherworldy stuff like deamons if you ask me) but they put it in the game anyway.

 

I get that the rules allow a model to take a horrific blow and live, but that means little. We have plenty of fluff where a 2 wound Daemon goes down to a single strike (The Chapter's Due shows Calgar one-punching plenty of enemies), so could they not get the rule anymore because they can be instant killed?

 

2nd edition was more detailed and there was no Eternal Warrior nor was their much instant death, but 5th edition is more stream lined and we have to remember that.

[Demoulius]

Feel no pain represents the individual not feeling pain and continuing on without it in some places but we see medics get it for their squad and Sicarius has a cloak that passes the rule to him. This means it also is used as a game mechanic to represent something being harder to kill or wounded individuals being pathced up and brought back into the fight. It could theoretically be used to represent tenacity of course, but I can't think of a unit of or model with the rule that the rule is intended to represent.

 

Eternal warrior means the character just won't go down no matter what injury you inflict on him/her/it! You have to hammer the creature to pieces and then break up those pieces and burn them, then eat the ashes and scatter the excremental remains on different planets, to finish the creature. That is represented in a single wound not inflicting enough damage on the model to finish them off in a single go, rather instead you have to strip the wounds off them 1 point at a time...

grabbed the big rulebook but it gives no fluff representation so all we can do is guess or read from entries why certain units give certains effects. fact that units got the same rule doesent mean that its under the same conditions.

 

for example death guard marines feel no pain because nurgle decayed their bodies whilst making them immume to his own diseases and for the most part, immume to pain (their nerves probably died out long ago) wheres death company marines have it because they are in a state of frenzy, they keep going even after wounds that would normally halt a sane man who would then seek to preserve himself from further harm. the same can be said about our sanguinary priests. it represents the sons of sanguinius as responding to the aura of the sanguinator, which houses a part of a grail, which carries a residue of sanguinius himself. normal command squad apothecaries and IG medics are represented by the medic patching up the marines (IIRC)

 

so FNP can be seen as a multiple of things, the wounds are either felt as severe as they normally are but the person feeling it is in a certain state of mind that he pays no need to it. the wond inflicted gets healed or treated. etc

 

EW however is a bit more simple. "the model is immume to the effects of the instant death rule" thats it. no clarrification. the only explanation that i recall reading is the one in the chaos codex for the deamon prince, which was something along the lines that because he was a deamon, he was immume to the ID rule because he was just so tough.

 

stating that EW makes people negate death because theyre "strong of will" is downright rediculas, even in a fantasy game. FNP could be represented by it, for example that people supress their pain and refuse to stop their advance. happens in rl as well where adrenaline ensures people dont feel pain for a short while.

 

EW is only a gimmick to make IC's more attractive in the prospect that they cant be felled as easily bt hidding PF's. fluffwise there is simply no base for it as far as I can tell. but do i wish it for my own chapter master? hell ya! all other chapter masters have it, and they have as little fluff reason to have it as Dante. So why them and not us?

 

Wishing Dante had the rule seems like it is just a case of Codex envy, I believe.

to be fair, neither have any of the other characters...

 

there a story about Calgar surviving combat with an avatar of khaine, and killing him. but he doesent cause ID as far as im aware. nor did Lysander survive anything that would kill any other marines outright.

 

so telling us that our chapter master just doesent get it and flagging us questioning the fact WHY he dident get it as codex envy is a rather blunt way of telling us that he dident get it "cause" and then telling us to bugger off. <_<

 

I get that the rules allow a model to take a horrific blow and live, but that means little. We have plenty of fluff where a 2 wound Daemon goes down to a single strike (The Chapter's Due shows Calgar one-punching plenty of enemies), so could they not get the rule anymore because they can be instant killed?

novels have all sorts of things in them that either go against established fluff or are just so rediculas in their extremity that they just become silly. killing a deamon in 1 hit isent so silly 9chop of its head or whatever have you) but they are generally not considered canon...

[Ironfather_cogface]

so telling us that our chapter master just doesent get it and flagging us questioning the fact WHY he dident get it as codex envy is a rather blunt way of telling us that he dident get it "cause" and then telling us to bugger off.

 

Agreed utterly.

 

I wouldn't call this codex envy in any form, it just seems truly ridiculous that whilst even a 'Stock Standard' Chapter master gets EW, Dante who is EVERYTHING that makes an Eternal Warrior Doesn't have it!

 

I think largely, it comes down to the players in games to agree on it or not. Quite frankly, if i was playing anything but tourney and when i suggest allowing the rule to the blood angels guy i'm playing says "No, absolutely not, its not in Dante's rules" Is playing Rulehammer, he's not an opponent i want to face often.

[Captain Idaho]

I put quite a substantial explanation of why, in my view, the developers use Eternal Warrior in the game. I wasn't just throwing an accusation of Codex envy out there unsupported.

 

I think Dante is amazing; he has 6 high WS attacks on the charge, with a guaranteed chance (Priest) of getting FNP and Furious Charge. He can deep strike with enering accuracy (a minor rule sometimes, but could be decisive) and has a solid stat line and armour saves. He moves as fast as a Daemon Prince and doesn't need a transportm and reduces the effectiveness of an enemy independent character. And his points cost is modest compared to other Chapter Masters.

 

Compared to Calgar he is 40pts cheaper if you want Calgar to have a good save, and you if the SM player wan'ts Calgar in assaults he needs either a Landraider or accompany a squad with a Drop Pod, or risk deep striking. So pontentially Dante can range from 40-75-290pts cheaper than Calgar. Similar story for Grimnar and Lysander.

 

I honestly think the problem comes from comparing characters in direct assaults with each other. We look at Dante and know he will likely die if taking on either of those 3 Characters, or Ghazghull even, but we don't need to use him the same way. Put him in a solid unit and set about destroying enemy infantry as a bully unit, shooting to death the few units that can hurt Dante and his men. That's how I use my Honour Guard.

 

People focus too much on the elite of their assault units in their army taking on everything the opponent can throw at them, the biggest example being Thunder Hammer Terminators in Codex armies. People consider them to be the only assault option in the army because they only consider them able to take on an opponent's hardest assault unit. I've always disputed this as the only viable way to assault opponents in 40K! It is perfectly viable not to shoot the support elements and assault the assault elements, but to shoot the assault elements and assault the rest! Dante excels at this!

 

Plus any assault element that wants to take him on will likely suffer a black eye if they do take him and his escort down!

 

I wouldn't call this codex envy in any form, it just seems truly ridiculous that whilst even a 'Stock Standard' Chapter master gets EW, Dante who is EVERYTHING that makes an Eternal Warrior Doesn't have it!

 

Name a stock standard Chapter Master that gets Eternal Warriror! The answer is there isn't one!

 

Dante doesn't fit the description for Eternal Warriror. Sure he can be as tancious and stubborn as most Astartes, but those aren't his defining features.

[Ironfather_cogface]

>.< Right, so i'll admit i was wrong there, but i'm standing by my opinion.

[chino]

When comparing Dante 1v1 against other chapter masters, Dante is really going to put the hurt on most of them. He reduces another ICs wounds to what's usually going to be 2 or 3, particularly in the case of Logan and Calgar. He's hitting on a 3+ with his Death Mask, re-rolling a missed hit, and forcing invulnerable saves, which in both cases are a 4+. Fail 2/3 saves and there goes 275 points and 265 points respectively. All this for 225 points, 12 inch movement, and a scatterless Deep Strike. Logan and Calgar need an extra 240/250 points to move 12 inches.

 

Furthermore, with the Death Mask, if your opponent is unlucky enough there's pretty much no chance to hit Dante with Calgar (Logan always hits on a 3+ with his Wolftooth Necklace). Plus with the negative initiative modifier, Dante is pretty much asking to be clocked with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. So for a 40 and 50 point difference, of course Eternal Warrior on top of it is a bit crazy. 250+ and it makes perfect sense for him to have it, but as is he can take down opposing Chapter Masters pretty easily. Of course, with the right rolls, Dante is dropping to Logan and Calgar's power fist attacks, but Dante has already landed an unsaveable wound on them before anyone even gets on the table.

 

Add it each character's supporting units and things even out, seeing as each one is going to drop from the ammount of power weapon/power fist attacks being thrown around. Even then, only Calgar and Dante get FNP, Logan has to call up his Lone Wolf buddy to join in for a FNP model. In my mind it seems to even out, Wolves get more Eternal Warrior and Ultramarines get FNP, while Blood Angels get FNP and Furious Charge. When it comes to a one on one fight, I think I'd put my money on Dante for two out of three fights, then the opponent will make their 4++ saves and insta-gibb him.

 

Edit: Just a fluff question, but does anyone know if Dante fought alongside the Primarchs? Just wondering, because his fluff states he's the oldest living Space Marine, while Bjorn was part of Logan's retinue, making him the oldest "living." Unless Bjorn technically isn't living, as he is in the Dreadnought Sarcophagus?

 

Edit 2: Dante can also make sweeping advances while maintaing a 2+/4++ making him more effective against enemy infantry.

[Oiad]

Put me in the camp of 'he should have it but would cost 20+ points more' camp. Surely if he truely believes in this prophesy, his willpower will push him through anything until he fulfills it.

 

Also, each other SM codex in the 5th Ed has had two special characters with EW. Mephiston is a beast already and really needs such weaknesses, otherwise he'd be near-flawless and cost over 275 points. Dante is really the only other character who could qualify in my book. Supposedly defeated an Avatar level MC - check (Skarbrand), has a reputation that precedes him galaxy-wide - check (Armageddon II) and has practically lived through it all to a venerable age - check. His feats and abilities are relative enough to Calgar and Grimnar. Cough up GW.

 

EDIT

Ruleswise, the masks' current rules are pretty hearty (I'd say rather too silly) but really when only comparing them in a 1v1 assaulting environment isn't a thorough test of their abilities - it only plays to Dantes advantages. The other two CM's have arguably as good or better death star advantages or are better at long-range. Makes me think some BA players need to think outside of the CC box...

[Captain Idaho]

>.< Right, so i'll admit i was wrong there, but i'm standing by my opinion.

 

Which is perfectly fine, as there is nowhere in the Codex that say's I am right and you are wrong.

 

I'm just trying my best to change the view on 40K, that there are other ways of playing and some characters who don't fit the "standard" can still be useful. 40K would be boring if every army had a Calgar/Lysander equivilent, which is honestly probably the reason the Development team went a different way with Dante. We got Calgar/Lysander in Space Marines, followed by Yarrick in Imperial Guard, then Grimnar (and the rest of their Codex!) in Space Wolves - It's somewhat refreshing Blood Angels didn't go that way. Oh wait, they did already with the Sanguinor and Mephiston, who despite not being immune, has high enough toughness and ability that instant killing him is not a viable tactic.

 

So that is why Dante can't have EW, because its already in Codex Blood Angels in spades.

 

Even then, only Calgar and Dante get FNP

 

I agree with much of what you said, but Calgar can't get FNP unless you take a Captain to unlock a Command squad, further inflating costs.

 

Put me in the camp of 'he should have it but would cost 20+ points more' camp. Surely if he truely believes in this prophesy, his willpower will push him through anything until he fulfills it.

 

That's wishful thinking with regards to points costs. Calgar and Grimnar are both 250pts plus, and in need of transports to be in assaults which inflates costs. Dante, given EW, would cost even more because he would have a 12" movement. Look at the Sanguinor; Dante with EW is essentially The Sanguinor but can hide inside units so can't be shot to death as a counter. Dante would cost upwards of 270pts+.

 

I've said it before, extreme longevity doesn't tick the box of what EW represents. EW represents the following from my earlier post:

 

Eternal warrior means the character just won't go down no matter what injury you inflict on him/her/it! You have to hammer the creature to pieces and then break up those pieces and burn them, then eat the ashes and scatter the excremental remains on different planets, to finish the creature. That is represented in a single wound not inflicting enough damage on the model to finish them off in a single go, rather instead you have to strip the wounds off them 1 point at a time...

 

Dante is not that character and never has been. I don't think I have ever heard about him taking a beating in the fluff and coming back for more at all, which would imply he is a master of martial combat and living a charmed existance in equal measure. You should be complaining his Death Mask only effects a single model and he doesn't have a re-rollable armour/invulnerable save due to his will and skill at avoiding injury.

[Oiad]

Once. To me there's quite a big difference between a T6 Sv2+ model and a T4 Sv2/4^ EW model. Differeing perspectives huh?

[Demoulius]

I've said it before, extreme longevity doesn't tick the box of what EW represents. EW represents the following from my earlier post:

Eternal warrior means the character just won't go down no matter what injury you inflict on him/her/it! You have to hammer the creature to pieces and then break up those pieces and burn them, then eat the ashes and scatter the excremental remains on different planets, to finish the creature. That is represented in a single wound not inflicting enough damage on the model to finish them off in a single go, rather instead you have to strip the wounds off them 1 point at a time...

and il say my opinion about that again then. thats not what EW means. no amount of willpower will save you from ID, beeing a tough nut/hard as nails would however. why not all chapter master then have it beyond me though (balance most likely) but fluffwise no amount of "beeing stubborn" will net you EW....otherwise every DA would be an EW :)

 

thinking that a chapter master who has been in the thickest fights has never fought something akin to a deamon prince and/or a avatar is mindboggling if you ask me... he says so much in a speach "i have fought everything you must fight" seems to indicate to me that hes seen pretty much all the enemies of the imperium can throw at him and survive (largely) intact. (dont think theres fluff about him having bionics but i dont think its unlikely :D )

 

there doesent seem to be any critera for EW aside from making certain IC's more favorable as options. so to say that Dante doesent have it because he dident "qualify" is....odd.

 

if you say "he has enough going for him already and giving him EW ontop of it for his current pointcost is to much" then i do agree with you. it would raise him to the 275-300 mark if you ask me. would he still be worth it? in my mind yes.

 

anyway lets cut the chatter WHY he has no EW because obviously our opinions are mixxed about that. lets agree to disagree on the matter

[JamesI]

Personally, I think Eternal Warrior is overused in 40k right now and don't really think Dante needs it.

[Ironfather_cogface]

anyway lets cut the chatter WHY he has no EW because obviously our opinions are mixxed about that. lets agree to disagree on the matter

agreed, its getting kinda warm in here.

[Captain Idaho]

I do get your point Demoulius, but I think you are mixing up game mechanic with literary representation. What happens in the game has no bearing with reading a novel about 40K.

 

anyway lets cut the chatter WHY he has no EW because obviously our opinions are mixxed about that. lets agree to disagree on the matter

 

Ok, I'll shut up then :lol:

 

Personally, I think Eternal Warrior is overused in 40k right now and don't really think Dante needs it.

 

It was over used as soon as Codex Chaos Daemons was released!

[Oiad]

Meh, if you wanna see mass abuse of EW you should check out the campaigns Tempus Fugitives run. This is relatively mild in comparison. Agreed with Idaho too, but obviously they have their reasons...

[Demoulius]

idaho, im not mixing up anything here ;)

 

im just discussing why certain IC's would have EW or not. and for the life of me i cant find a reason why space marines would.....TT aside :down:

 

but by the criteria apparantly present i think he should have it as well. just saying :D

 

last thing il say about this promise :yes:

[Crynn]

I've said it before, extreme longevity doesn't tick the box of what EW represents. EW represents the following from my earlier post:

Eternal warrior means the character just won't go down no matter what injury you inflict on him/her/it! You have to hammer the creature to pieces and then break up those pieces and burn them, then eat the ashes and scatter the excremental remains on different planets, to finish the creature. That is represented in a single wound not inflicting enough damage on the model to finish them off in a single go, rather instead you have to strip the wounds off them 1 point at a time...

and il say my opinion about that again then. thats not what EW means. no amount of willpower will save you from ID, beeing a tough nut/hard as nails would however. why not all chapter master then have it beyond me though (balance most likely) but fluffwise no amount of "beeing stubborn" will net you EW....otherwise every DA would be an EW :cuss

 

thinking that a chapter master who has been in the thickest fights has never fought something akin to a deamon prince and/or a avatar is mindboggling if you ask me... he says so much in a speach "i have fought everything you must fight" seems to indicate to me that hes seen pretty much all the enemies of the imperium can throw at him and survive (largely) intact. (dont think theres fluff about him having bionics but i dont think its unlikely :D )

 

there doesent seem to be any critera for EW aside from making certain IC's more favorable as options. so to say that Dante doesent have it because he dident "qualify" is....odd.

 

if you say "he has enough going for him already and giving him EW ontop of it for his current pointcost is to much" then i do agree with you. it would raise him to the 275-300 mark if you ask me. would he still be worth it? in my mind yes.

 

anyway lets cut the chatter WHY he has no EW because obviously our opinions are mixxed about that. lets agree to disagree on the matter

 

So you think that EW is worth between 50 and 75 points? Thank god you didn't write the codex the sanguinor would be 325 points!

[Captain Idaho]

So you think that EW is worth between 50 and 75 points? Thank god you didn't write the codex the sanguinor would be 325 points!

 

Ha maybe, but I agree with Demoulius here, as although it doesn't look like much, but the rule multiples in value the more the model's stat line and abilities increase. So far there isn't a flying Eternal Warrior combat monster that can hide inside units, and when that day comes we can expect the points to go through the roof.

 

The Sanguinor, if an independent character, would be 325pts!

 

As a reverse example, look at every Astartes Eternal Warrior in the game. Every one of them has one of two things in common and that is they either move very slowly or they aren't independent characters. Even Daemon Princes can't hide inside units!

 

Of course Daemons are different kettles of fish!

 

idaho, im not mixing up anything here

 

No you're not, and if I read you reply earlier properly I would have realised we had a comprimise already! :)

 

if you say "he has enough going for him already and giving him EW ontop of it for his current pointcost is to much" then i do agree with you. it would raise him to the 275-300 mark if you ask me. would he still be worth it? in my mind yes.

 

That is fair enough! I thought you were ungrateful for what we had in Dante, but I realised if I paid a little better attention I would see that we do have consensus.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to Dante having EW with a big points increase, but that looks like the easy way out for the desingers! I would rather he was different to The Sanguinor and Mephiston and the other Chapter Masters (+ Lysander). I'd rather he had a rules that represented him being fierce in assaults, with masses of attacks as he unleashes the potent power of Sanguinus' geneseed! A higher WS and Initiative would be good, but more importantly his mask should reduce any unit in assault with to WS1 and I2 or something.

 

But that's because I believe we should have more variance in our characters some times.

 

And now I can still hold onto my interpretation of what EW represents and you can hold onto yours without anyone losing face :lol:

[Valerian]

Personally, I think Eternal Warrior is overused in 40k right now and don't really think Dante needs it.

 

Hmm. This may or may not be of any value, but what the heck. Just to throw, perhaps, a different perspective on this issue I will offer the following:

 

Your average 1-Wound Space Marine starts at about 15 points (depending on codex) and goes up from there, based on options and upgrades. Getting a 2nd or more Wounds to reflect "hardiness", "durability" or "luck" is pretty expensive. Most 2 Wound characters in all of the various Space Marine codices cost at least 100 points, and many Special Characters cost over 200 points these days. Most of these are Independent Characters, which means they can "hide" from high-strength Shooting Attacks by attaching to a unit, but cannot "hide" from high-strength Close Combat Attacks, because they are considered to be separate units for the purposes of resolving close combat/assaults. The majority of attacks available in the various codices will only cause a single Wound at a time, thus you get the durability that you have paid for with your expensive special character. However, a few weapons and special abilities "steal" that survivability away, for usually not a significant investment (25 points for a Power Fist, etc.), compared to the investment to get those extra Wounds for a character. I'm going to offer the opinion that perhaps GW designers should have less things that cause Instant Death in the first place. Certainly items like Force Weapons, and the relatively new Bone Swords, but perhaps not with everything that is simply 2xToughness of the target model.

 

It seems as though the designers are still trying to find the "Sweet Spot" for this issue. Back in 2nd Edition, certainly high-strength weapons simply did multiple wounds when they hit a target (eg. 1D4 Wounds), which could obviously kill a character if they failed to save (but if they rolled low on the number of Wounds, the the Character might live, despite being successfully hit by a Meltagun, Lascannon, or whatever).

 

In 3rd Edition, they got rid of Multiple Wounds, and made the new rules mechanic an "all-or-nothing" issue, where you either take No Wounds (pass your Save), take 1 Wound (most Weapons on failed Save), or die outright, regardless of your number of Wounds (Instant Death). Initially, in 3rd Edition, Power Fists were 15 points for most basic Marines. However, at Strength 8, they were causing Instant Death to characters left and right. To help resolve that, the price for that upgrade was increased to 25 points. It still wasn't enough, so in 4th Edition, high-strength close combat weapons like Power Fists and Thunder Hammers were hit with the nerf bat again, and lost the ability to get an extra attack from having a second CCW or a pistol in the off-hand. Apparently, Instant Death is still too much of a problem, leading to the spread of Eternal Warrior in recent codices. Unfortunately, they seem to be trying to address the symptom with each change, rather than cure the disease, which might be the over-prevalance of Instant Death situations/weapons.

 

Valerian