Commander Dante

[Crynn]

So you think that EW is worth between 50 and 75 points? Thank god you didn't write the codex the sanguinor would be 325 points!

 

Ha maybe, but I agree with Demoulius here, as although it doesn't look like much, but the rule multiples in value the more the model's stat line and abilities increase. So far there isn't a flying Eternal Warrior combat monster that can hide inside units, and when that day comes we can expect the points to go through the roof.

 

The Sanguinor, if an independent character, would be 325pts!

 

As a reverse example, look at every Astartes Eternal Warrior in the game. Every one of them has one of two things in common and that is they either move very slowly or they aren't independent characters. Even Daemon Princes can't hide inside units!

 

Of course Daemons are different kettles of fish!

 

if you say "he has enough going for him already and giving him EW ontop of it for his current pointcost is to much" then i do agree with you. it would raise him to the 275-300 mark if you ask me. would he still be worth it? in my mind yes.

 

That is fair enough! I thought you were ungrateful for what we had in Dante, but I realised if I paid a little better attention I would see that we do have consensus.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to Dante having EW with a big points increase, but that looks like the easy way out for the desingers! I would rather he was different to The Sanguinor and Mephiston and the other Chapter Masters (+ Lysander). I'd rather he had a rules that represented him being fierce in assaults, with masses of attacks as he unleashes the potent power of Sanguinus' geneseed! A higher WS and Initiative would be good, but more importantly his mask should reduce any unit in assault with to WS1 and I2 or something.

 

But that's because I believe we should have more variance in our characters some times.

 

And now I can still hold onto my interpretation of what EW represents and you can hold onto yours without anyone losing face :)

 

We aren't talking about the Sanguinor as an IC so the 325 points is rediculous even if he was an IC 325 would be too much, not that this has any relivence to the topic

 

As for Dante creeping up around that level with EW you must be mentle. If EW is scaled to a characters potency then the SW get it at 35 points on a thunderwolf mount with 3++ and str 10 always hit on 3+ id say dante wouldnt pay more then 35pts, he hits less hard, isnt as hard or as fast so really this arguement has no merrit. As for no combat monsters with EW? what. Even with the added clause of 'who are fast' the thunderwolf mounted wolf lord is one already he could also just have a jump pack and beat dante. Dante isnt a combat monster, 5 str 4 power weapons with one reroll isnt much at all If he had EW he still would hit like a :P for 250 points. Infact there would be almost no marine HQ in the game who would hit as pissy as him for 250 or your suggested 275+ points. I don't think he's a bad HQ choice but dont think hes combat prowess is anything amazing even with furious charge which you are paying more for and could be a substitue point cost for another HQ choices transport. Dante needs -1 wound and EW at about 20 points. That and a change on death mask rules and an 'inspiring rule' which seems to be written into his fluff and written as a rule in every prior codex.

 

 

Personally, I think Eternal Warrior is overused in 40k right now and don't really think Dante needs it.

 

Hmm. This may or may not be of any value, but what the heck. Just to throw, perhaps, a different perspective on this issue I will offer the following:

 

Your average 1-Wound Space Marine starts at about 15 points (depending on codex) and goes up from there, based on options and upgrades. Getting a 2nd or more Wounds to reflect "hardiness", "durability" or "luck" is pretty expensive. Most 2 Wound characters in all of the various Space Marine codices cost at least 100 points, and many Special Characters cost over 200 points these days. Most of these are Independent Characters, which means they can "hide" from high-strength Shooting Attacks by attaching to a unit, but cannot "hide" from high-strength Close Combat Attacks, because they are considered to be separate units for the purposes of resolving close combat/assaults. The majority of attacks available in the various codices will only cause a single Wound at a time, thus you get the durability that you have paid for with your expensive special character. However, a few weapons and special abilities "steal" that survivability away, for usually not a significant investment (25 points for a Power Fist, etc.), compared to the investment to get those extra Wounds for a character. I'm going to offer the opinion that perhaps GW designers should have less things that cause Instant Death in the first place. Certainly items like Force Weapons, and the relatively new Bone Swords, but perhaps not with everything that is simply 2xToughness of the target model.

 

It seems as though the designers are still trying to find the "Sweet Spot" for this issue. Back in 2nd Edition, certainly high-strength weapons simply did multiple wounds when they hit a target (eg. 1D4 Wounds), which could obviously kill a character if they failed to save (but if they rolled low on the number of Wounds, the the Character might live, despite being successfully hit by a Meltagun, Lascannon, or whatever).

 

In 3rd Edition, they got rid of Multiple Wounds, and made the new rules mechanic an "all-or-nothing" issue, where you either take No Wounds (pass your Save), take 1 Wound (most Weapons on failed Save), or die outright, regardless of your number of Wounds (Instant Death). Initially, in 3rd Edition, Power Fists were 15 points for most basic Marines. However, at Strength 8, they were causing Instant Death to characters left and right. To help resolve that, the price for that upgrade was increased to 25 points. It still wasn't enough, so in 4th Edition, high-strength close combat weapons like Power Fists and Thunder Hammers were hit with the nerf bat again, and lost the ability to get an extra attack from having a second CCW or a pistol in the off-hand. Apparently, Instant Death is still too much of a problem, leading to the spread of Eternal Warrior in recent codices. Unfortunately, they seem to be trying to address the symptom with each change, rather than cure the disease, which might be the over-prevalance of Instant Death situations/weapons.

 

Valerian

 

Quick one Valerian. In 3rd Ed you didnt need to be an eternal warrior as you couldnt target and IC out of a squad and the IC could pick which 'models' it wanted to attack. SO unless it was another IC with a fist your IC pretty much never died to ID. They would just go hm 10 man tac squad with fist. ill put 3 attacks on the sarg with fist and 2 on the rest of the squad and then win. But GW made it so now bodyguards dont do anything hence the over use of EW to counter this stupid mistake. I love how 1100+ year old Dante gets into combat with a chaos marine squad freaks out and the fact there is 10 of them and just starts slashing wildly while the chaos space marine squad leader goes ooh look a a chapter master and his entire elite body guard who would give their lives for him. "Let me casually wade through them and land my powerfist on that master. Oh look at that dead chapter master, dont see what was so hard about that." So you can blame the person who decided all your heros are the worst decision makers in your army as to the over use of EW because now chars generally have to be tougher to make up for their stupidity.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Captain Idaho]

We aren't talking about the Sanguinor as an IC so the 325 points is rediculous even if he was an IC 325 would be too much, not that this has any relivence to the topic

 

As for Dante creeping up around that level with EW you must be mentle. If EW is scaled to a characters potency then the SW get it at 35 points on a thunderwolf mount with 3++ and str 10 always hit on 3+ id say dante wouldnt pay more then 35pts, he hits less hard, isnt as hard or as fast so really this arguement has no merrit. As for no combat monsters with EW? what. Even with the added clause of 'who are fast' the thunderwolf mounted wolf lord is one already he could also just have a jump pack and beat dante. Dante isnt a combat monster, 5 str 4 power weapons with one reroll isnt much at all If he had EW he still would hit like a :) for 250 points. Infact there would be almost no marine HQ in the game who would hit as pissy as him for 250 or your suggested 275+ points. I don't think he's a bad HQ choice but dont think hes combat prowess is anything amazing even with furious charge which you are paying more for and could be a substitue point cost for another HQ choices transport. Dante needs -1 wound and EW at about 20 points. That and a change on death mask rules and an 'inspiring rule' which seems to be written into his fluff and written as a rule in every prior codex.

 

The Sanguinor was perfectly relevant as he is an example of a character with a powerful stat line and selection of abilities (big points cost on its own) which doesn't get to hide away from shooting. He already costs 275pts as is, do you really think if you couldn't target him with shooting because he was hiding in a 10 Man Assault squad that wouldn't inflate his points cost?

 

Same goes for Mephiston with his abilities?

 

How much would Abbaddon cost if he could fly? Or even a Daemon Prince with wings that could hide inside units? What about a Bloodthirster that could hide inside units?

 

So far in the game there isn't a model that can move 12" and assault that has eternal Warrior and can hide inside units, and that is because there is very little chance of countering them.

 

Such a model will likely exist one day I'm sure, but sure won't cheap and be as tough as every one of those models I brought up above!

 

And Dante isn't a combat monster? He might not be able to kill some of the harder denzions of the 40K universe but he has a pretty solid stat line, whilst also having some reasonable abilities. He is definitely worth his points. Imagine him hiding in a squad and deepstriking right behind enemy lines with enerving accuracy. Be a bit of a pain to deal with the rest of the Blood Angels army bearing down from the front when you have Dante and his men in your rear.

 

He still has 4 wounds and even more attacks. And an Inferno pistol. And with a Priest furious charge and feel no pain. And a decent save and invulnerable.

[Morollan]

And Dante isn't a combat monster? He might not be able to kill some of the harder denzions of the 40K universe but he has a pretty solid stat line, whilst also having some reasonable abilities. He is definitely worth his points. Imagine him hiding in a squad and deepstriking right behind enemy lines with enerving accuracy. Be a bit of a pain to deal with the rest of the Blood Angels army bearing down from the front when you have Dante and his men in your rear.

 

I did exactly that last night and Dante was, as usual, a complete let down for me. Dante and a unit of SG dropped behind the Tyranid lines with the aim of taking out a Tervigon and its progeny that was camping an objective. In 3 turns of assault Dante managed to kill a grand total of 3 Termagants and did 1 wound to the Tervigon. Granted, my dice rolling was utterly terrible (he never hit with more than 2 attacks, even with a re-roll) but the main problem is his pathetic strength. Even with up to 6 attacks on the charge, his S4 attacks are really struggling to wound anything that he's likely to get his point value back against. And most of the stuff he could get his point value back against would kill him pretty quickly due to the lack of EW and difficulty wounding.

 

The only plus point was that he (and the SG) held up the Tervigon, a unit of warriors and a horde of lesser creatures for three turns. But those models weren't going anywhere anyway and still controlled the objective at the end of the battle. I would almost certainly have been better off with Astorath or Sanguinor.

[Crynn]

We aren't talking about the Sanguinor as an IC so the 325 points is rediculous even if he was an IC 325 would be too much, not that this has any relivence to the topic

 

As for Dante creeping up around that level with EW you must be mentle. If EW is scaled to a characters potency then the SW get it at 35 points on a thunderwolf mount with 3++ and str 10 always hit on 3+ id say dante wouldnt pay more then 35pts, he hits less hard, isnt as hard or as fast so really this arguement has no merrit. As for no combat monsters with EW? what. Even with the added clause of 'who are fast' the thunderwolf mounted wolf lord is one already he could also just have a jump pack and beat dante. Dante isnt a combat monster, 5 str 4 power weapons with one reroll isnt much at all If he had EW he still would hit like a :P for 250 points. Infact there would be almost no marine HQ in the game who would hit as pissy as him for 250 or your suggested 275+ points. I don't think he's a bad HQ choice but dont think hes combat prowess is anything amazing even with furious charge which you are paying more for and could be a substitue point cost for another HQ choices transport. Dante needs -1 wound and EW at about 20 points. That and a change on death mask rules and an 'inspiring rule' which seems to be written into his fluff and written as a rule in every prior codex.

 

The Sanguinor was perfectly relevant as he is an example of a character with a powerful stat line and selection of abilities (big points cost on its own) which doesn't get to hide away from shooting. He already costs 275pts as is, do you really think if you couldn't target him with shooting because he was hiding in a 10 Man Assault squad that wouldn't inflate his points cost?

 

Same goes for Mephiston with his abilities?

 

How much would Abbaddon cost if he could fly? Or even a Daemon Prince with wings that could hide inside units? What about a Bloodthirster that could hide inside units?

 

So far in the game there isn't a model that can move 12" and assault that has eternal Warrior and can hide inside units, and that is because there is very little chance of countering them.

 

Such a model will likely exist one day I'm sure, but sure won't cheap and be as tough as every one of those models I brought up above!

 

And Dante isn't a combat monster? He might not be able to kill some of the harder denzions of the 40K universe but he has a pretty solid stat line, whilst also having some reasonable abilities. He is definitely worth his points. Imagine him hiding in a squad and deepstriking right behind enemy lines with enerving accuracy. Be a bit of a pain to deal with the rest of the Blood Angels army bearing down from the front when you have Dante and his men in your rear.

 

He still has 4 wounds and even more attacks. And an Inferno pistol. And with a Priest furious charge and feel no pain. And a decent save and invulnerable.

 

 

Simply put mate, If dante was worth his points he would get used more. Simple I dont want to be rude but I'm going to have to be, your wrong. Deep striking means you guarantee he wont be able to charge 2nd turn and with decent of angels his no scatter becomes less usefull, his mask just doesnt work against some armies, so in those all comers lists it could physically do nothing and its the best thing about him (my all comers lists has no IC's, I would laugh if someone fielded dante for competetive reasons) he has no eternal warrior, and not enough str to kill things quickly to avoid being instant deathed himself. He isnt a combat monster because i can get any 125 point captain to beat him in combat, thats almost half his cost, 225 points for str 4 no EW and no combat force multipliers, how is he any good in CC? And now for this absolute lie.

 

NO FLYING CHAR WITH EW THATS A COMBAT MONSTER??? Well even if Dante had EW while making him good it wouldnt make him a combat monster but lets think for just a sec oh ohhh and here it comes....... SW Wolf lord with jump pack saga of the bear frost blade (or TH/SS) wolf tooth necklace etc etc so there is one, he just normally comes in the str 10 extra toughness attack and cavalry status variaty so this mold is already broken. It is this simple, been done, there is no excuse for Mat Ward to write up Dante as such a piece of crap, He is supposed to be a good commander and has always had things like 'inspiring' rules that make him a good combat commander, now he doesnt even have that. All he does is let you take another badly priced BA unit as troops. The BA codex has its well costed great units but Dante aint one of them unfortunately.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[SamaNagol]

Flying isnt the issue. It is getting into combat. And ThunderWolf Lords get into combat very well indeed thank you. And costs a mere 25 points more than Dante.

 

I agree, in the pdf he used to be worthwhile taking because of the 12" Preferred Enemy buff. I have NO IDEA why that was removed and replaced with Hit and Run and no scatter.

 

Epic fail. It really does not compliment the way in which BA work together as an army list.

 

And even if he did have that rule, I'd still think twice about spending 225pts on him. Without that rule he is LUDICROUSLY overcosted.

[Crynn]

Flying isnt the issue. It is getting into combat. And ThunderWolf Lords get into combat very well indeed thank you. And costs a mere 25 points more than Dante.

 

I agree, in the pdf he used to be worthwhile taking because of the 12" Preferred Enemy buff. I have NO IDEA why that was removed and replaced with Hit and Run and no scatter.

 

Epic fail. It really does not compliment the way in which BA work together as an army list.

 

And even if he did have that rule, I'd still think twice about spending 225pts on him. Without that rule he is LUDICROUSLY overcosted.

 

Finally some sense from someone. I think most people would take the 4th ed dante over the 5th which says a lot in itself. Also his mask was actually better as it let your marines hit any other marines within 6" of dante on 3's its like a 6" +1 WS aura not to mention enemies got a -1 bs. It worked well in conjunction with his prefered enemy rule. It also worked on all enemies all the time, not just one IC if the opponent has one. he was cheaper too.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm just catching this thread now, and this has likely been discussed already - but Dante shines in right circumstances. If you have a shooty honour guard for example, they will come in just as ordered and blow stuff up; and can escape combat if they need to. For me it's all about the Sanguinary Guard though. I don't necessarily think they are the most efficient unit, but I love them and Dante makes them better (troops!). I have to say I've found his death mask very helpful as well. No doubt the Preferred Enemy bubble was outstanding but I still think this new Dante is very good.

 

IF you were planning to field an honour guard or Sanguinary Guard anyway, than I believe Dante is a good choice... otherwise perhaps not.

 

I've had very few opportunities to use HitnRun because his unit usually kills everything first turn... but I think it is a cool ability.

[SamaNagol]

He is good. But for an extra 25 pts you can get Mephiston..... Think about that for a while

[igotsmeakabob!!]

You're only going to take Dante if you want a Sanguinary Guard list... which from what I hear, aren't terrible competitively (I was surprised). Now this is unfortunate, and most people would take the old Dante because he was underpriced for what he did. 12" bubble of preferred enemy was intended to give your troops a 3+ to hit, but in 5th he gave them reroll all misses. I wish I'd used that more often against my friends (in conjunction with Corbs) my friends might complain less about our 5th ed. 'dex then.

I think the current Dante might be 25pts overcosted. Nothing huge, but it's a dealbreaker for most people.

[Captain Idaho]

Wolf Lords are an obvious exception, and the balance is the fact they have limited troops who accompany them as jump packers. Sky Claws are not very popular and all, remember. Blood Angels have lots of decent jump packers.

 

Thunder Wolf Lords are silly units, but at least they can't join units other than Wolves or Thunder Wolves (lightly armoured and expesnive, respectively).

 

I did exactly that last night and Dante was, as usual, a complete let down for me. Dante and a unit of SG dropped behind the Tyranid lines with the aim of taking out a Tervigon and its progeny that was camping an objective. In 3 turns of assault Dante managed to kill a grand total of 3 Termagants and did 1 wound to the Tervigon. Granted, my dice rolling was utterly terrible (he never hit with more than 2 attacks, even with a re-roll) but the main problem is his pathetic strength. Even with up to 6 attacks on the charge, his S4 attacks are really struggling to wound anything that he's likely to get his point value back against. And most of the stuff he could get his point value back against would kill him pretty quickly due to the lack of EW and difficulty wounding.

 

The only plus point was that he (and the SG) held up the Tervigon, a unit of warriors and a horde of lesser creatures for three turns. But those models weren't going anywhere anyway and still controlled the objective at the end of the battle. I would almost certainly have been better off with Astorath or Sanguinor.

 

With a total 16 attacks you only killed 3 Termangaunts? Well that is obviously bad luck.

 

Did you not accompany him with a Priest for furious charge? Sounds like his body guard were weak?

 

You are also failing to graps some of the finer points of 40K gaming, along with many people on the internet quite frankly. Playing 40K is not about exchanging your units for what they can kill. In your example it sounds like you missed a perfect opportunity to draw the Tyranids away from assaulting your lines.

 

You guys aren't going to listen to me clearly, which is fine, but you guys are definitely missing a trick.

[Morollan]

With a total 16 attacks you only killed 3 Termangaunts? Well that is obviously bad luck.

As I said, there was some terrible dice rolling in there but even using mathhammer, Dante will kill, on average, 2 MEQ per turn even on the charge (6 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+). Against MCs it gets even worse. That's hardly what I call a combat monster!

 

Did you not accompany him with a Priest for furious charge? Sounds like his body guard were weak?

Sadly, I only had points for one priest and he was with my main assault squad blocks. He did however have a tooled up unit of Sanguinary Guard with him, who also failed to do anything worthwhile.

 

You are also failing to graps some of the finer points of 40K gaming, along with many people on the internet quite frankly. Playing 40K is not about exchanging your units for what they can kill. In your example it sounds like you missed a perfect opportunity to draw the Tyranids away from assaulting your lines.

 

You guys aren't going to listen to me clearly, which is fine, but you guys are definitely missing a trick.

I didn't need to draw them away from my lines. They were already away from the main battle, camping an objective. I needed to take that objective off them. The point is that a Space Marine Chapter Master who is allegedly the best thing since sliced bread failed to make even a slight dent in an enemy who I would expect to be butchered by a normal assault squad who would cost the same amount of points (without the accompanying SG unit).