Brightlance spam

[LoneSniperSG]

I believe my question is simply put.

 

In prep for an upcoming 'Ard Boyz tournament (week and a half.. and counting), I've so far had two games with my friend who plays Eldar.

 

He likes to use two D-cannon batteries, and uses his Warlocks to conceal on them like it's going out of style. Being that these have scattered more than they have hit, they're only annoying, not devastating. In addition, he regularly fields two Dire Avenger squads and a trio of War Walkers with Brightlances and Star Cannons. Last night, he also had a Star-cannon armed Wave Serpent (with its silly shielding upgrade)

 

On top of this, he drops Warpspiders (with his Autarch attatched), Swooping Hawks with their Haywire 'nades, and scouts five Pathfinder Rangers somewhere appropriate.

 

Last night's game was 1250 points, and he used every unit I've just described. My list was the following:

 

Wolf Lord with Tail talisman, Frost Axe and Storm Bolter, attatched to eight Grey Hunters with a Meltagun, Power sword and Plasma pistol. Entire squad had a Drop Pod.

 

Wolf Priest with bolt pistol, attatched to eight Grey Hunters with a Meltagun, Plasma Pistol and Fist.

 

Nine Grey Hunters with plasma pistol, plasma gun and power weapon.

 

Two Vindicators with siege shields

 

Long Fangs with three heavy bolters and a missile launcher, sergeant has a bolter.

 

Five Fenrisian Wolves, taken just for the heck of it because I had nothing else to fit within the remaining points.

 

Pathfinders moved up on top of a large building, but never fired on me. My Wolf Lord and his Greys dropped in turn one, per our Drop Pod Assault rule, and were hastily fired upon by the war walkers and a nearby D-cannon, cutting down everyone except for my Lord. One of my vindi's was popped in turn 2 by Haywire grenades, and The second blew down a War Walker, and shook up the one next to it, then suffered destruction via the third Brightlance-armed Walker.

 

My third GH squad, trying to support the remaining Vindicator was targeted by his Swooping Hawks, and cut down to three men, while the Wolf Priest and his squad were finally pinched between a disembarking Dire Avenger squad (with Bladestorm) and his Warp Spiders. The Avenger's transport targeted my Long Fangs, but only downed one and shrugged off the squad's return fire. The Fen Wolves ran for the second Dire Avengers squad, but did not make it to them before the game ended after Turn 4.

 

He's told me that no one in the tourney will have as many annoying weapons as he will save maybe for the other Space Wolf player and that I shouldn't bash myself over dealing with his brightlances. He's challenged me to beat him in prep for the upcoming event.

 

I'm in a bit of a noodle scratcher with this, gents. How do you beat rapidly-moving eldar who are backed up by those cursed War Walkers? Seems like I can't move fast enough to ever get an assault charge on him before he moves, which results in his Warp Spiders or Swoops assaulting me.

 

It's an annoying war of attrition, since his troops number more than mine. Any advice?

 

He's been a 40k player for a while, and told me outright to keep the units I had fielded last night (excluding the Fen. Wolves), but get another drop pod and fill it with sacrificial Blood Claws, so that my Lord and his squad can drop in the next turn and deal a critical blow where needed. I was also thinking that if I do that, I should back the Lord up with Wolf Guard instead of Greys, and give a battle leader to the Grey Hunter packs. I also want to throw in a Land Raider Redeemer, given its ability to toast Marines, so Terminators are a solid option as well.

[TiguriusX]

You want a critique of your list or general eldar tactics?

 

Grey Mage has an amazing Eldar tactica on here somewhere...I would start with that while you wait for replies to your specific questions

 

*EDIT*

Here is priceless knowledge from Grey Mage.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

 

I don't know who is in charge of sticking threads but that may be worth keeping up top

[LoneSniperSG]

You want a critique of your list or general eldar tactics?

 

Grey Mage has an amazing Eldar tactica on here somewhere...I would start with that while you wait for replies to your specific questions

 

*EDIT*

Here is priceless knowledge from Grey Mage.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

 

I don't know who is in charge of sticking threads but that may be worth keeping up top

 

I'll throw up my detailed list, and planned tourney army in the List section. I only put this up now because I'm about to leave campus and go home, thus giving this topic some time to simmer. I'll definitely check out that Eldar tactica though.

[Grimtooth]

A rune priest instead of a wolf priest would play all types of hell with your friends list. Runic staff ability, Chooser for infiltrators, dangerous terrain for deep striking/jump infantry.....etc.

[LoneSniperSG]

I was going to run a Rune Priest, but then I remembered some advice from a while ago..

 

Psykers don't do well against Eldar. Unless of course ours is somehow different.

 

For the tourney, yes. I'll definitely take a RP.

[Mordekiem]

If he has a farseer then you want a rune priest. Not to cast powers, but for the 4+ chance to negate his powers.

 

If eldar take a farseer it is usually because the list needs it. Stopping half his powers is worth the cost of a bare bones rune priest because you are seriosuly disrupting his plans.

 

If he does not have a farseer then murderous hurricane and living lightning will be awesome. Hurricane the troops and lightning the tanks.

 

Otherwise I don't think his list is all that bad-arse, but yours may need some tuning. Rhinos and cover will protect you from starcannons (treat them like plasmaguns). Lances are only better than a lascannon against AV14 which you do not have. So treat them as a lascannon/missle launcher with less range.

 

Vindicators are pretty much the fail against eldar tanks. Poor range and scatter make them overpriced. A pack of longwolves with missles is your friend. Krak for the tanks and frag for the troops who just disembarked in a nice cluster. A plthora of str 7-8 weapons is your goal.

 

If you want to kill the D-cannons take a unit of scouts. Avengers can die to frag missles or bolter fire. Spiders got armor 3+, but also toughness 3. And there usually are not many of them. Again bolter fire and missle will often do them in.

 

Walkers can pack alot of firepower, but are only AV 10. Missle launchers will do them in nicely.

 

Also sounds like he has no real CC units to fear. Maybe the odd powerweapon. So don't worry about getting stuck in. Basic autarch and farseers are nothing special in CC.

[LoneSniperSG]

If he has a farseer then you want a rune priest. Not to cast powers, but for the 4+ chance to negate his powers.

 

If eldar take a farseer it is usually because the list needs it. Stopping half his powers is worth the cost of a bare bones rune priest because you are seriosuly disrupting his plans.

 

If he does not have a farseer then murderous hurricane and living lightning will be awesome. Hurricane the troops and lightning the tanks.

 

Otherwise I don't think his list is all that bad-arse, but yours may need some tuning. Rhinos and cover will protect you from starcannons (treat them like plasmaguns). Lances are only better than a lascannon against AV14 which you do not have. So treat them as a lascannon/missle launcher with less range.

 

Vindicators are pretty much the fail against eldar tanks. Poor range and scatter make them overpriced. A pack of longwolves with missles is your friend. Krak for the tanks and frag for the troops who just disembarked in a nice cluster. A plthora of str 7-8 weapons is your goal.

 

If you want to kill the D-cannons take a unit of scouts. Avengers can die to frag missles or bolter fire. Spiders got armor 3+, but also toughness 3. And there usually are not many of them. Again bolter fire and missle will often do them in.

 

Walkers can pack alot of firepower, but are only AV 10. Missle launchers will do them in nicely.

 

Also sounds like he has no real CC units to fear. Maybe the odd powerweapon. So don't worry about getting stuck in. Basic autarch and farseers are nothing special in CC.

 

I've got no qualms about getting stuck in, but his faster units always beat me to it. In the last two games, I've only started one CC with one of his units. All other times, it was something coming at me.

 

Against his Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, I feel like my troops have got lead boots on. It seems like he things get up and in my face and get away it before I can do anything about them. I was hoping to come up with a tarpit unit to grapple with them, or something to chase the Spiders down.

[Ryzouken]

you're going to get charged by god and everything because you're foot mobile, not mounted. Grab some Rhinos or Land Raiders and you should see an uptick in the number of assaults you're able to perform. I ran a triple land raider list at 1500 points and got the charge over 70% of the time, fast movers or not, back when I was still actively playing.

 

Rune Priests. Take them, love them.

Drop the dogs and a few other things here and there and make room for either multimelta land speeders or wolf guard, after grabbing rune priests and rhinos that is.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

you're going to get charged by god and everything because you're foot mobile, not mounted. Grab some Rhinos or Land Raiders and you should see an uptick in the number of assaults you're able to perform. I ran a triple land raider list at 1500 points and got the charge over 70% of the time, fast movers or not, back when I was still actively playing.

 

Rune Priests. Take them, love them.

Drop the dogs and a few other things here and there and make room for either multimelta land speeders or wolf guard, after grabbing rune priests and rhinos that is.

 

Maybe some WG bike and PW combo's if you can spare the points for it. they can move pretty fast. Thunder wolf cav can do a 19-24 inch assault.

[Mordekiem]

I've got no qualms about getting stuck in, but his faster units always beat me to it. In the last two games, I've only started one CC with one of his units. All other times, it was something coming at me.

 

Against his Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, I feel like my troops have got lead boots on. It seems like he things get up and in my face and get away it before I can do anything about them. I was hoping to come up with a tarpit unit to grapple with them, or something to chase the Spiders down.

You are probably not gonna catch him unless you get something like speeders and bikes. So you would need to rely on weapons that can reach out and touch him. Hence my suggestion for longfangs with missle launchers. Missle launchers are pretty cheap and an excellent buy against eldar.

 

The rhinos is a good idea, too. They may not help you assault, but will protect you and let you move 12" and then rapid fire. Plenty of distance to get close to spiders or hawks.

 

And don't try to tarpit either of those two units. They will just float away.

[LoneSniperSG]

Okay. Gotcha. I like what I'm hearing, because I can work it all.

 

Now, how many Long Fangs are you talking, Mordekeim?

 

And how many priests Ryzouken?

[LoneSniperSG]

Here's my exact counted army list from that night.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=200631

[Grey Mage]

I've got no qualms about getting stuck in, but his faster units always beat me to it. In the last two games, I've only started one CC with one of his units. All other times, it was something coming at me.

 

Against his Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, I feel like my troops have got lead boots on. It seems like he things get up and in my face and get away it before I can do anything about them. I was hoping to come up with a tarpit unit to grapple with them, or something to chase the Spiders down.

Take some bikes, bloodclaw bikers are fast enough to get the job done. Stick a rune priest on a bike to lead them, and get your runic weapon in range to stop even the fastest farseers.

 

Thunderwolves can do the same job, but theyre vulnerable to any decent eldar list.

 

Unless your spamming landraiders then a Brightlance is just a less flexable missile launcher against most targets. Against a Vindicators front armor its the same as a lascannon, against the side its comparatively worse... against dreads, rhinos, and whirlwinds its no better than a missile launcher. They really are nothing to get worried over, unless your spamming landraiders.

 

Another way to shut down a fast eldar list is to take DPs, and then just fall on his fast units and rapid fire them to death. If he deploys in reserve, thats fine- in KP missions castle up in good terrain, in objective missions pick a vital spot and make it a walking death trap. Biking rune priest with stormcaller can take some of the bite out of his starcannons, and dreads packing heavy weapons can make his tanks think twice about coming into LOS any more than they have to.

 

one other thing- you cannot upgrade a waveserpent with any kind of field. They do come with one that caps incoming enemy ranged attacks at S8 and 1d6 armor penetration, unless its on the rear. If he was having you roll multiple dice on the damge table and taking the lowest he was- perhaps unwittingly- cheating.

 

Looking at his list.... yeah. Its your lack of LR antitank that was causing you issues I think. Even so, heavy bolters glance on a 5, and have plenty of shots- you should have had those Warwalkers down in two turns, tops. Footslogging probly didnt help a whole lot either though.

[LoneSniperSG]

They do come with one that caps incoming enemy ranged attacks at S8 and 1d6 armor penetration, unless its on the rear.

That's just what that Wave Serp had, Grey Mage. And sure enough three of the four heavy weapons, including the missile missed the blasted thing.

 

in objective missions pick a vital spot and make it a walking death trap

 

What exactly do you mean by that? Probably the late hour on my part.

 

 

So brightlances aren't too agonizing for anything under AV12, I gather. In that case.. I have plenty of Lascannon carts ready to move. This week, I will have to buy another Drop pod. Blood Claws come in on turn 1, Wolf Lord and backup on turn 2. Booya.

 

Instead of Vindicators, take Dreads or Predators then? They're very near the same price, and with no wolf pack I have plenty of points to play with.

 

I will say though, those Demolisher cannons had him nervous. It was really quite amusing.

[Ryzouken]

How many priests can you afford?

 

Rune Priests are, to be frank, fairly nuts. Capable of dishing out autocannon hits at long ranges or inflicting instant death on monstrous critters from 24" away, their ranged attack powers rival the armament reserved for most main battle tanks. Their defensive powers as well are some of the better in the game, edged out only by Fortune. The ability to negate inbound psychic attempts on a 4+, as well as their hosing of jump enemies and skimmers and 5+ cover save production provide a suite of abilities that will ensure that no matter the enemy's tactic, the rune priests will be a thorn in their side. The trouble will be, selecting your powers so that each priest contributes effectively in every game as well as selecting minimal wargear to keep your points low, bearing in mind that the wargear must be different amongst each priest.

 

for powers, I'd select the following:

Jaws, Storm Caller

Tempests Wrath, Lightning

Jaws, Tempests Wrath

storm caller, Lightning

 

Wargear is easy enough, costing you 13 points:

#1: Stock

#2: Bolter

#3: Chooser

#4: Storm Bolter

 

really, it just boils down to how many points you can afford to spend on HQ's without diluting the rest of your army. Keep in mind, the above 4 models are capable of throwing out 2x 24" lines of death and 2d6 autocannon shots per turn, prevent infiltration in a 36" diameter bubble, and nullify enemy psychic powers within 24' of each model on a 4+.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The 1000 point army I fielded today consisted of...

 

Wolf Priest, jump pack

Lone Wolf, twin wolf claws

10 Skyclaws, flamer, power fist

10 Grey Hunters, 2 plasma, plasma pistol, power fist, Rhino

10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta, plasma pistol, power fist, Rhino

6 Long Fangs, 5 missile launchers

 

At 1250 points I'd take my Rune Priest with jump pack, and drop the Lone Wolf so I could take another Grey Hunter pack. 185 points would give me a a foot slogging 10 man squad, or something smaller in a Rhino.

 

Wolf Lords are cool, but they don't add anything to your army except killiness which Space Wolves have already. A Wolf Priest enhances the squad he leads (I saw tonight what a Skyclaw charge with preferred enemy does... yowsers) while a Rune Priest gives you psychic protection and some snappy powers (storm caller is quite good when trying to keep AP3- casualties down... pity I can't roll over 4).

 

Enough warm bodies and you can absorb a few (or a lot... cough cough) bad rolls and still pull off a win. Elite Space Marines die as easily as the cheaper sort so tend to be on the fragile side.

[LoneSniperSG]

Looking at his list.... yeah. Its your lack of LR antitank that was causing you issues I think. Even so, heavy bolters glance on a 5, and have plenty of shots- you should have had those Warwalkers down in two turns, tops. Footslogging probly didnt help a whole lot either though.

 

Hm.. I didn't bring much AT stuff because he doesn't have much of anything with an armor value, but now I see I should have for the longer reach.

 

And footslogging, well I don't have a choice. Rhinos were shunned with the last 'dex, and these have been my first battles with our latest codex. I'll have to grab some of my Chimeras to proxy as Rhinos for tomorrow night then.

 

I figured I would end up having to Pod or Mech, I just have to drop $65 to do it in the tournament..

 

If I'm going for longer reach, then should I bother with Jumpers and Landspeeders? It doesn't seem like I can split my army between the two and expect to do well.

 

What I gather from all of this is that I have two main options...

 

I'm guessing I either have to go Rhino/Pod with long range, OR Deep Strike jumpers, Pods and Speeders with bikers starting on the board.

 

One other question which came up the other night. I know you can't assault out of Pods,but can you shoot out of them?

[Mordekiem]

Okay. Gotcha. I like what I'm hearing, because I can work it all.

 

Now, how many Long Fangs are you talking, Mordekeim?

 

And how many priests Ryzouken?

Depends on how many points you got and what else you may have in the list. But even a 5 or 6 man unit will cause issues if they are well placed.

 

I also second the idea of the rune priest with bikes. This is what my friend used against my mech eldar. We played at 1850 and he had a bunch of stuff, but what I really hated was his longfang pack (with a termie WG w/ CSM) and his bike pack. He also has a bunch of GH in pods and rhinos.

[Ryzouken]

A quick rule of thumb style "How many Rune Priests would Ryzo take?"

500pt: 1

1000pt: 1

1250pt: 1-2

1500pt: 1-2

1750pt: 2

2000pt: 2-3

+2000pt: 3-4

 

Essentially, the important thing to remember is, the more rune priests you take, the less Land Raiders you can afford. Which is rough.

[Mordekiem]

The OP mentioned 1250 points so I think more than one Rune Priest is overkill.

[LoneSniperSG]

The OP mentioned 1250 points so I think more than one Rune Priest is overkill.

 

Land Raiders are also overkill at 1250, and wouldn't do too well when faced with brightlances.

 

One thing, the Rune Priest is able to be upgraded to a Master of Runes, but I can't find any information on what "Master of Runes" is in our book. Looked under the Rune Priests, looked under Njal.. can't find it.

[Sarapham]

The OP mentioned 1250 points so I think more than one Rune Priest is overkill.

 

Land Raiders are also overkill at 1250, and wouldn't do too well when faced with brightlances.

 

One thing, the Rune Priest is able to be upgraded to a Master of Runes, but I can't find any information on what "Master of Runes" is in our book. Looked under the Rune Priests, looked under Njal.. can't find it.

 

 

page 37, first paragraph.

[Grey Mage]

Looking at his list.... yeah. Its your lack of LR antitank that was causing you issues I think. Even so, heavy bolters glance on a 5, and have plenty of shots- you should have had those Warwalkers down in two turns, tops. Footslogging probly didnt help a whole lot either though.

 

Hm.. I didn't bring much AT stuff because he doesn't have much of anything with an armor value, but now I see I should have for the longer reach.

 

And footslogging, well I don't have a choice. Rhinos were shunned with the last 'dex, and these have been my first battles with our latest codex. I'll have to grab some of my Chimeras to proxy as Rhinos for tomorrow night then.

 

I figured I would end up having to Pod or Mech, I just have to drop $65 to do it in the tournament..

 

If I'm going for longer reach, then should I bother with Jumpers and Landspeeders? It doesn't seem like I can split my army between the two and expect to do well.

 

What I gather from all of this is that I have two main options...

 

I'm guessing I either have to go Rhino/Pod with long range, OR Deep Strike jumpers, Pods and Speeders with bikers starting on the board.

 

One other question which came up the other night. I know you can't assault out of Pods,but can you shoot out of them?

When I say a walking death trap, I mean eldar weaponry is short ranged. If all of your units are close enough to mutually support each other there is no weak spot for the player to strike.... no safe zones for him to stay in while he hits you from behind. Eldar are like a short springing guy... hes got less reach, so they make the hits count hard and hope to hit you when you cant hit back.

 

I would definitely take the speeders if you have them though. Those arent just heavy weapons, those are fast heavy weapons, and cheap to boot. Jumppackers are a little less nessecairy, frankly Id rather have bikers- and since theyre not scoring they cant fill the whole a rhino mounted squad would.

 

I find that, particularly against eldar, you either need to be hyper-agressive and cripple him quickly OR castle up so he cant find any chinks in your armor to use against you... but thats not to say there arent other ways.

 

And yes, verily, shooting out of a pod is most of the fun I find.

[LoneSniperSG]

Castle up requires using terrain and such to your advantage, right?

 

I've been hoping to be more aggressive with this, given just how Space Wolves perform, but if there's a defensive option, that's my natural style.

 

 

I'm not very good with small packs of bikes. Every time I take them, they die quickly.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, it does to an extent- heavy use of cover is key, long range assets on everyone is also key. IE more plasma rifles, long fangs, dreads, less meltaguns and probly at most one vindicator. C:SM would call it gunline, for SWs its a castle- and the ramparts have chainswords.

 

For example... two dreads and three pack of GHs pod into an area with a hill and a ruin, two GHs run into the ruin, the Dreads fire off at something, and the third GH squad moves into a supporting position. Two squads of LFs already in cover allow you to drop empty pods in later rounds, with two more GH pods with small squads to capture objectives late game or reinforce a position... or hit a tank in the rear. Rune Priest and SCs for a mobile reserve and some psychic defense... and thats about 1850.