how to beat space maines

[matt.k]

Ok I am the space marine player here and my son is the chaos player. he inherited an army and I got space marines and we have been playing a lot. Unfortunatly he keeps losing to me and i basicly table him every game.

 

right now he is running

 

HQ 1x demon prince, wings, psycic powers

 

troops.

 

8x khorn berserkers, champ w/ power fist and plasma pistol, 2 marines have plasma pistols squad in rhino

 

10x plauge marines, champ with power fist, melta gun

 

Elites dreadnought twin linked las cannons

 

heavy support

 

Predator TL LC HB sponsons.

 

 

the problem is that he gets shot up so bad his squads never make it to me or if they do they get smacked down.

 

I.. as marines play

 

1 SM captian w/relic blade

2x tac squads, 1st with plasma cannon and plasma gun and derget has power fist, 2nd had las cannon and plasma gun, sergent has power fist

dreadnought w, 2x TL AC (rifleman)

predator AC LAS sponsons.

 

It seems to me that he needs more troop choices. Maybe another squad of khorn berserkers in another rhino but that would require that he remove both the tank and the dreadnought.

 

as it is I think that dread soaks up a lot of my heavy fire but really isn't that effective. I usualy run a gun line against him and try to wear him down before he can get me but my Rifleman dread can keep his rhinos from making it far since i basicly always get at least a cannot move out of its firing.

 

It is usualy looking ok for him but them my assault terminators deep strike and its all over

[hazardousZERO]

It depends on how many points it is. My guess is a 1000 or 1500. If he wants a beast at close combat give the Daemon Prince wings and mark of Khorn. No shooting but will mess up anything in close combat and with MoK has base 5-A hits on +3 wounds most everything on (+3 i think). Tell him to find a god and stick with it hes all over the place. Like im a Khorn player there for I run a bunch of bezerkers I might be lacking on long range but in close combat im lethal.

[the jeske]

pms should never be used at 10 man , they cost too much then. 7 man is enough ,they should always have 2 specials too.

dreads suck like few other choices in the dex, a twin linked lascanon for 100+ points , wonderful for 150 you can have 2 that can turn to plasma canons when you want , dont go crazy can be LoS shielded with rhinos etc.

 

zerkers do not get plasma pistols expensive non FnP asp champions with fist dont get them too.

 

HB LC combo . wow again . not good enough against tanks [single shot and 0 shots if it gets stuned shaken] and against horde even a unit of autocanon havocks is better [more shots , doesnt get stuned . but it still sucks because of it inabilty to counter AV 14] .

 

Chaos mecha lists look like this

 

1-2 DPs

3 troops[picked from zerkers/pms and csm only]

4-6 oblits.

 

LR rush builds look the same only they run LR instead of oblits and run smaller non LR squads[so for example in a mecha list pms are 7 man asp champ with 2 specials in a LR rush build they will be 5 man 2 specials no asp champion].

 

other ways to play chaos effectivly do not exist.

[matt.k]

Should he go full las on the predator? This was an army he inherited so its all over the palce. he has

 

16-20 berserkers, 15 plauge marines, 10 terminators, various heavy weapons for a havoc squad. almost all the special charicters/lords, dreadnought, predator, one rhino. demon prince/oop bloodthirster model.

 

I know you should keep to one god but they are both good at what they do. I told him to maybe ditch the tank and dread for another squad. I thought it said in the chaos codex that up to 2 berserkers can take plasma pistols and so can the champ.

 

 

are you seriously telling me that the only way to play chaos is either with drop pods or land raiders?

[nurglez]

the DP he wrote there was for daemon prince's, only hq worth taking for chaos.

he was also saying that you shouldnt take plasma pistols on khorne berserkers , plasma pistols cost the same amount as a normal chaos marine, having 3 in 1 squad is a bit overkill.

 

Dread's just arent good enough for chaos as fire platforms, due to fire frenzy and crazed.

 

I'd suggest either try running the predator as a rhino, to get 2, or run it as a vindicator, i love vindicators, and rarely plan an army without them. for chaos this would be a vindicator with daemonic possession.

 

also, the magic number for plague marines is 7, its the favoured number of nurgle, and its just the right cost for what you get.

 

Seems like the high amount of str 7 shots you have is ideal for popping or stunning all his vehicles, ouch.

[the jeske]

Should he go full las on the predator?

and do what ? he has one tank you [or any other army] will have more then one option to stun/shake it and if that happens , its a 100+ points los blocker. and before you ask if possesion is the way to go , no its not . most of the time a single tank will not just be stuned it will be blown up , puting more points in to it is a bad idea.

 

16-20 berserkers, 15 plauge marines, 10 terminators, various heavy weapons for a havoc squad. almost all the special charicters/lords, dreadnought, predator, one rhino. demon prince/oop bloodthirster model.

well he needs to buy rhinos for each squad he uses, otherwise [see army builds listed] it doesnt work . chaos cant combat squad so gunline is auto of the question , we actualy cost more points for the same set up[with the exeption of plasma canon csm cant take] the tacticals have. Chaos is a short range assault army and as we dont have infiltration or fleet we use transports, no going around this.

 

 

I thought it said in the chaos codex that up to 2 berserkers can take plasma pistols and so can the champ.

yes and it costs too much for what they do and the chance to kill an asp champion is going to be a real problem each time it happens.

 

 

are you seriously telling me that the only way to play chaos is either with drop pods or land raiders?

chaos cant take drop pods. and yes chaos has two builds the mecha one and a LR . those are the only two that work , using anything else in any of the slots given is taking worse options. And yes I know it is boring .

[IronWinds]

Buy more rhinos.... even rip the guns off that predator to make it a rhino. If you fill 50-60% of a chaos list with Plague marines, bezerkers, and/or chaos marines in rhinos it will do well... not amazing all the time but he will get to your lines.

 

Chaos is a HtH-12" range army, that is the sweat spot, if he can get within 12" of you his chaos marines will do the rest.

 

16-20 berserkers, 15 plauge marines, 10 terminators, various heavy weapons for a havoc squad. almost all the special charicters/lords, dreadnought, predator, one rhino. demon prince/oop bloodthirster model.

 

So you have kharne?

 

Kharne does well, throw him in a rhino with some bezerkers and he will eat marines. Best demon princes are with wings and warptime, either MoN, MoT, or even MoS if you want cheap.

 

Zerker squads don't need to shoot, thats why you don't bother with plasma pistols. If they shoot their enemy might fail a ld check and run away... which the zerkers don't want, they want them to fail a ld check after the zerkers maim them in assault. Many times its actually better to not shoot with bezerkers, unless the enemy is fearless or just to numerous(orks/guants) to suffer 25% casualties. 8 zerkers, champ-PF rhino. If he has enough anti-tank he can trade the PF for a PW, but you don't want zerkers to get stuck with a dreadnought without a power fist.

 

Plague marines are best 7-8 guys, champ-PF, 2 meltas or 2 plasma or 2 flamers, in a rhino. PF always because with their lower Initiative there is no need for a PW.

 

If you get some basic chaos marines they tend to be best 10 man squads, 2 special weapons, champ w/ PW or PF in a rhino.

 

Terminators are good, especially if they have combi weapons so they can deepstrike and unload firepower as soon as they hit the ground.

 

Leave the dread in a box till chaos gets a new codex. Predator is ok, but a defiler or obliterators would be better use of the points.

 

 

Your son reminds me of a guy I play sometimes at my local gaming place. Had 1 rhino in his whole army. One game I told him to drop a dreadnought and I let him borrow a few rhinos for the points. He still lost that game, but he did 10 times better than he did in the game before.

 

 

Jeske gives great advice for building tourny lists... there aren't many so his advice is always the same, but it is great advice none the less. If he seems pushy its because he believes very strongly in those 2 lists. You might not want a tourny list, but about the rhinos he is dead right. Even if you don't want a tourny list for chaos to be effective you need a fast army. Chaos is best at HtH-12", your son NEEDS to get into that sweet spot, rhinos are how you get there :P .

[matt.k]

ok so drop the dreadnought like i thought. either turn the predator into a rhino again or get a rhino.

 

1000 pts

 

somthing like 2x khorn berserker squads 9 and 10 man in rhino's

a demon prince with wings and mark of khorn

chaos lord with demon weapon and mark of khorn attached to khorn berserker squad

plauge marines x7 PF melta melta

[Rain]

ok so drop the dreadnought like i thought. either turn the predator into a rhino again or get a rhino.

 

1000 pts

 

somthing like 2x khorn berserker squads 9 and 10 man in rhino's

a demon prince with wings and mark of khorn

chaos lord with demon weapon and mark of khorn attached to khorn berserker squad

plauge marines x7 PF melta melta

 

Almost. Drop the Khorne lord because he is crap, he does nothing and punches himself 31% of the time, put in Khârn instead. Personally I think Mark of Nurgle is better on a DP because a.) you can get warptime and b.) T6 is quite good against Meq. Otherwise looks alright as long as everything is in rhinos, and that includes the plague marines, seriously, his deployment should be just tanks, MC's and maybe oblits if he has the models. Also, how much cover do you play with? Don't play on "deserts", put in some buildings, craters, etc that should even it out considerably.

[matt.k]

I would have to drop the plauge marines in favor of berserkers.

 

999 points

 

2 berserker squads w/rhino's

2 obliterators

demon prince wings, warp time, mark of nurgle, doom bolt

karn

[Cosmic Archmage]

I would have to drop the plauge marines in favor of berserkers.

 

999 points

 

2 berserker squads w/rhino's

2 obliterators

demon prince wings, warp time, mark of nurgle, doom bolt

karn

 

The Nurgle DP cannot take 2 psychic powers, only Tzeentch one can, and if you do, take Warptime and Winds of Chaos. If using nurgle, take only Warptime.

[Rain]

The daemon prince cannot have two powers unless he is Tz, which his is not. Also, this is probably understood, but Khârn should ride in a rhino with one of the berzerker squads. Alternately he could drop Khârn altogether and buy two more oblits for the points, as oblits are in my personal opinion the best unit in the Chaos codex (I didn't recommend this before because I didn't think he had oblit models).

 

That said, what you have up there should work ok against your marine army. Also tell him to use cover, and remember to pop smoke on his rhinos and also that with clever movement one rhino can obscure the other with only the covering rhino popping smoke, which gives both of them saves with only one rhino having to pop smoke. The next turn they switch places and the covering rhino pops smoke again, and the next turn the squads inside should be in CC.

[matt.k]

cool. looks like he has another 80-100 bucks to spend and he will have a pretty nice khorne force

[templarboy]

cool. looks like he has another 80-100 bucks to spend and he will have a pretty nice khorne force

On eBay, zerkers can be very cheap. I just got 16 of them for 20 bucks. That's two full squads of 8. You can also convert some of those terminators into obliterators. There are a ton of examples of converted terms-into-oblits in this amazing forum. You might also expand to 1500 points or even 2k. It will give him more wiggle room to take some cool stuff. Chaos is all about the CC. So nudge him that way. Anyone have an opinion on taking meltabombs on the asp champs for anti armour?

[the jeske]

it is realy easy to convert oblis from termis , specialy the plastic chaos ones.

[Warsmith Aznable]

it is realy easy to convert oblis from termis , specialy the plastic chaos ones.

 

This interests me, as I hate the obliterator models and have extra plastic terminators hanging about. Someone mentioned people doing that very well here; where should I look for such a thread?

[Brother Nihm]

Your best bet is the PC&A,

You could also do Obliterator Heavy Weapon teams ala Dan the Deamon.

 

link

[The_Crippster]

Am I the only one who likes my Daemon princes with just wings? I guess with only one it's probably a good idea to get that t6 or +1 to invul save, but I almost always run my pair with just wings.

 

I converted my oblits from termes-

Before doing anything, plan out your model. Get the head you'd like to use, plenty of various weapon bits, greenstuff and perhaps stuff to base him nicely. Immagine what you'd like him to look like at the end and always sculpt/cut with that in mind.

1. Cut them up at the knees, arms and waist (if they're glued there, otherwise they should be separated at the waist already)

2. Apply a small ammount of greenstuff on the inside of the knees and waist, thus making them taller.

3. I personally made their torsos larger with Mighty Puddy (dries hard, looks less organic than greenstuff but is no fun to work with and smells awful) by applying it on the sides and top, and then smoothing it out to look like just a larger torso.

4. For the weapons I got various weapon bits- I used heavy bolters, lascannons, tyranid bioweapons, vehicle combiflamers, the heads that go on the end of predator barrels, kroot rifles, IG flamers/grenade lauchers, plasmaguns/pistols, pretty much anything I could get my hands on. Then I took a selection of my weapons and chopped them up, and re-assembled them all together, being sure to add plenty of flesh where they otherwise would not fit.

5. Then attack the weapon to the shoulder/forearm (whichever looks best/you sculpted for), then attach the powerfist arm. Feel free to add a missle launcher or something on his back to add to the effect.

6. Add stretched flesh (greenstuff) all around the model, like the GW oblits have.

7. If you wish to make him look even taller mount him on a fairly tall base. Chopped up cork board makes pretty decent rocks- especially if you have a little bit of flock to go around the rocks.

8. Repeat a couple times till you have all the oblits you need. I made six (1 termie box and 1 Assault on black Reach termie. Oddly enough, the AoBR one turned out the best.)

 

 

I haven't upoaded pics ever as my digital camera is a load of crap. I may do it soon to go along with this post (also the're unpainted).

[matt.k]

he has like 12 oop metal chaos terminators. it is possible he could mod them with green stuff but we are short on weapon bits

[minigun762]

Anyone have an opinion on taking meltabombs on the asp champs for anti armour?

 

Not needed if you take the Power Fist or if Khârn is in the same squad. You're S9 on the charge with the Fist which is enough to smack a Land Raider and Khârn has +2D6 armor pen.

[templarboy]

Anyone have an opinion on taking meltabombs on the asp champs for anti armour?

 

Not needed if you take the Power Fist or if Khârn is in the same squad. You're S9 on the charge with the Fist which is enough to smack a Land Raider and Khârn has +2D6 armor pen.

Groovy. Thanks. I never take meltabombs but I thought I might be missing something.

[The_Crippster]

Groovy. Thanks. I never take meltabombs but I thought I might be missing something.

I rarely take them when I rarely use a psword instead of a fist on khorne berserkers.

 

The trouble with them (and krak grenades) is that you onlyget 1 attack.

[nurglez]

powerfist is IMO better then powersword, because due to the wound allocation system done at initiative value, all those power weapon attacks could be stacked on 1 model. yet if you use a fist, and get lucky you can kill 4 models.

[The_Crippster]

and I agree with you. However oftentimes against I4 armies I'll choose swords on Berserkers/Slaanesh models due to the I5. In those cases I take meltabombs.

[matt.k]

I think his lists are getting much better but he is still gettting smacked down mostly due to tactics and deployment issues though. setting havocs to defend your only objective is not a good idea with no backup.