More pondering on Prospero Burns

[Hfran Morkai]

Can you tell I'm anxious/excited yet?

 

Thinking about "A Thousand Sons" we see the story from the view of Magnus' greatest warriors, so who do we think we will witness the Space Wolf side from? Bjorn? I think that would be awesome, the young member of Russ' personal guard recounting a tale of the deeds of his king.

 

Or will it be someone of Abnett's own devising?

 

Also, can we expect Abnett to put aside his dislike of the Space Wolves and their feel in order to write an awesome piece of work?

[Grimtooth]

Can you tell I'm anxious/excited yet?

 

Thinking about "A Thousand Sons" we see the story from the view of Magnus' greatest warriors, so who do we think we will witness the Space Wolf side from? Bjorn? I think that would be awesome, the young member of Russ' personal guard recounting a tale of the deeds of his king.

 

Or will it be someone of Abnett's own devising?

 

Also, can we expect Abnett to put aside his dislike of the Space Wolves and their feel in order to write an awesome piece of work?

 

Might want to toss a spoiler alert up top.

 

With the delays and anticipation of the book, he better put aside his dislike or he will be strung up by his Achilles tendons and beaten with hot pasta!

 

But I have been re-reading through "A Thousands Sons" over and over Mikal, and was actually wanting to bring up a topic for discussion again.

 

I think the initial wolf lord will show up, Skars (sp) since he is pretty prevalent from beginning to end of the book. I am hoping that the telling from the Space Wolves perspective will be more balanced then as told from the Thousand Sons.

 

One particular part of the book is really grinding me horribly and that is the end when Ahriman describes Magnus finally coming down to the battle. It is described almost as the 2nd coming of Christ when in reality if you are not a 1k Sons fanboi and not wearing rose tinted glasses, Ahriman is describing Magnus' deal brokered with Chaos. All the wonderful colors and appearance of Magnus, as described by Ahriman, belies the truth that he had made his deal and was now descending from his pyramid amid the forces of Chaos ripping apart his homeworld.

 

Another underlying theme is the constant use of "The Great Ocean" to describe the warp. Even at the very end when warp entities are looking down to Prospero from the warp rifts destroying Prospero, it is still referred to as the "Great Ocean". Wyrmdrake in comparison is always describing it as the "Storm". A clear distinction between how the 1k Sons believe in their control of their powers and Wyrmdrake views it as a danger not to be controlled.

 

As I go through it over and over, other points stick out that are just the 1k Sons in denial.

[Night Runner]

I think Wyrmdrake will be in Prospero Burns. At Nikea, Wymdrake shows a level of contempt towards Ahriman and the 1K sons that is not fully explained. I have the suspicion that Wyrmdrake was deceived or manipulated into turning on his fledgling friendship with Ahriman. I am interested in seeing exactly who and how it was done.

 

I am also aching to know if the lodges were introduced into the Space Wolves, or if their influence from other Legions impacted the Space Wolves.

 

As for The Thousand Sons novel, I did enjoyed it but I do have a lot of reservations against it, especially with the over-bloated powers of the Thousand Sons. There is also the fact that they were fighting alongside Horus at the Siege of Terra, but till the end of the novel, Magnus seems still to be loyal to the Emperor and sacrificing himself and his Legion and home-world in order to prove the Imperials as well as the Chaos power that tricked him that they were all wrong about him and his good intentions.

 

It would have been better if the author kept to the fluff and worked around it rather than 'expressing his vision of it'.

 

 

P.S: Does anybody else thing that the way the White Scar Librarian spoke at the Council of Nikea a bit lame and stupid!

[DV8]

With the delays and anticipation of the book, he better put aside his dislike or he will be strung up by his Achilles tendons and beaten with hot pasta!

 

Dan Abnett is one of Black Library's top writers. I have no doubt he will do the Wolves of Fenris proud.

 

I think the initial wolf lord will show up, Skars (sp) since he is pretty prevalent from beginning to end of the book. I am hoping that the telling from the Space Wolves perspective will be more balanced then as told from the Thousand Sons.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. As Thousand Sons is flamboyantly optimistic and joyous in heaping praises upon the scions of Magnus, I would hope that Prospero Burns is equally magnanimous to our Legion. That being said just reading Thousand Sons made me proud to be a Son of Russ.

 

One particular part of the book is really grinding me horribly and that is the end when Ahriman describes Magnus finally coming down to the battle. It is described almost as the 2nd coming of Christ when in reality if you are not a 1k Sons fanboi and not wearing rose tinted glasses, Ahriman is describing Magnus' deal brokered with Chaos. All the wonderful colors and appearance of Magnus, as described by Ahriman, belies the truth that he had made his deal and was now descending from his pyramid amid the forces of Chaos ripping apart his homeworld.

 

The way I interpret it is simply how the Thousand Sons view aetheric energies. Even one of the remembrancers Lemuel is described as being able to see auras or "halos" of energy and can discern emotion and feelings based on the colors and intensities of those auras. The description of Magnus' descent to do battle with Russ, and the energies coalescing around him could simply be the aetheric energy that the Thousand Sons are percieving, and could well be invisible to the Space Wolves (their Rune Priests might be able to see it too).

 

Another underlying theme is the constant use of "The Great Ocean" to describe the warp. Even at the very end when warp entities are looking down to Prospero from the warp rifts destroying Prospero, it is still referred to as the "Great Ocean". Wyrmdrake in comparison is always describing it as the "Storm". A clear distinction between how the 1k Sons believe in their control of their powers and Wyrmdrake views it as a danger not to be controlled.

 

As I go through it over and over, other points stick out that are just the 1k Sons in denial.

 

It's not so much just a simple analytical perception of the control and depth of their powers, but a heavy cultural impact has been brought in as well. The broad understanding is that it is the Immaterium, or the Warp. It is an immaterial world of energy and entities superimposed on top of the existing material world, a warping influence that degenerates and debases everything it touches. The Fenrisians are very similar in culture to the Norse, with very shamanistic influences. It would not surprise me that they bring that over to their Rune Priests as simply how they have always perceived these unnatural abilities.

 

 

Never forget that the implication is that Magnus made pacts with dark gods at the very reuniting with his Legion. Even before he took to the stars, Magnus and his progeny were doomed, and in the end Magnus realizes this. He finally understands that Tzeentch used Magnus' ambition, hubris, and pride to blind him to the truth that he was dealing with powers beyond his control. How much more so then are his sons blinded by both the Primarch's natural charisma and their own thirst for knowledge and power?

 

It is not an issue of denial of the truth, because they simply don't know the truth. They do not understand that they are dealing with powers beyond their control because they have never believed them to be beyond their control. They follow their Primarch, and their Primarch every instance defies the very concept of being enslaved by these powers. As Magnus was blinded by Tzeentch, so too was the Legion blinded by their Primarch.

 

That is the true tragedy of the Thousand Sons Legion. They were damned from the moment they were created.

 

 

As for The Thousand Sons novel, I did enjoyed it but I do have a lot of reservations against it, especially with the over-bloated powers of the Thousand Sons. There is also the fact that they were fighting alongside Horus at the Siege of Terra, but till the end of the novel, Magnus seems still to be loyal to the Emperor and sacrificing himself and his Legion and home-world in order to prove the Imperials as well as the Chaos power that tricked him that they were all wrong about him and his good intentions.

 

It would have been better if the author kept to the fluff and worked around it rather than 'expressing his vision of it'.

 

Sources on this? As far as I'm aware, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were never at Terra, and it was only when Russ and his Wolves razed Prospero to the ground did Magnus finally give in to Tzeentch (even official canon before the novels establishes this)

 

P.S: Does anybody else thing that the way the White Scar Librarian spoke at the Council of Nikea a bit lame and stupid!

 

Not particularily. The Great Crusade has just begun, and the domains of man are both spread off and isolated. It is the 31st millenium (give or take?) which gives a little under 30 thousand years from our present date (again an assumption but it's logical the calendar system is based off our own) for cultures and languages to develop and take root. English (High or Low Gothic, if you want to be politically correct) is not, therefore, the necessarily prevalent language.

 

Given the background/fluff of the White Scars, I believe they are primarily of Mongolian descent, with some feudal Japan and China mixed in. If you understand those languages (I'm Chinese) you'll know that the language system is quite different structurally from English. When translating both ways, inflections and subtle nuances are lost, and the result becomes coarse, unrefined, abrupt, with only the bare necessities to communicate what needs be said.

 

For example, if I direct translated (word for word) the Chinese phrase for "I need to go to the bathroom", I would end up with "I need go bathroom". The addition of "to" and "to the" are inflections used in the English language (in this instance for some specificity) where the Chinese language doesn't necessarily need it unless needing to specify, for example, which particular bathroom I need to go to. (And NO I don't presently need to go...that phrase just popped into my mind :))

 

The way the White Scar Librarian spoke, then, is simply his grasp of English at the present. In all likelihood he thinks in his native tongue, and is direct translating to English, and in doing so you lose a lot of the inflections that would make the sentences a lot smoother.

 

 

DV8

[Brunensteiner]

I dont think the Rune Priest Wyrdmake was tricked or misled into mistrusting Ahriman-I think he saw Ahriman and his legion for what they wre..heretics (even if the Thousand Sons didnt realise it)

 

Magnus had been in bed with the devil long before Prospero was sacked.

 

As written from The Thousand Sons perspective,yes they are loyal-but from the outside looking in...

[Night Runner]

As for The Thousand Sons novel, I did enjoyed it but I do have a lot of reservations against it, especially with the over-bloated powers of the Thousand Sons. There is also the fact that they were fighting alongside Horus at the Siege of Terra, but till the end of the novel, Magnus seems still to be loyal to the Emperor and sacrificing himself and his Legion and home-world in order to prove the Imperials as well as the Chaos power that tricked him that they were all wrong about him and his good intentions.

 

It would have been better if the author kept to the fluff and worked around it rather than 'expressing his vision of it'.

 

Sources on this? As far as I'm aware, the Thousand Sons and Magnus were never at Terra, and it was only when Russ and his Wolves razed Prospero to the ground did Magnus finally give in to Tzeentch (even official canon before the novels establishes this)

Hi DV8,

 

The armies at the Siege of Terra are not very clear since it has chaged 3 times at least. The Imperial forces have remained constant (except for the Blood Angels who were initially not mentioned), but the Traitor Legions at the Siege have changed. Initially. they were Horus, Fulgrim, Angron , Mortarion and Magnus. Later on Perturabo and Lorgar were also stated as being present.

 

After their escape from Prospero, the Thousand Sons sought sanctuary with Horus and fought along the Sons of Horus for the duration of the Heresy; and they fled to the Eye of Terror after Horus' defeat. Magnus along with Perturabo and Lorgar were at the Siege of Terra, even though they are rarely mentioned.

 

As for sources, there was an article called The Siege of the Emperor's Palace: The Sundering of the Imperium, that places Magnus and what was left of his legion at the siege.

 

There is also the Horus Heresy Board game, the first that came out in the 90's, also puts the Thousand Sons there (but not Perturabo). The new Horus Heresy game also places Magnus at the Siege.

 

The Collected Visions (book four if I'm not mistaken) also places Magnus at the Siege along with Lorgar.

 

I hope it helps,

 

NR

[Grimtooth]

The reason I was glad to be a Space Wolves player when reading A Thousand Sons was because I didn't believe in the propaganda.....LOL!

 

The problem with the whole aetheric energies bit was that during those events of Magnus descending, the skies were opening into the Warp. Monstrosities were looking down upon a world to feast, the gibbering ramblings of the demons were driving Space Wolves insane on sight and within hearing range. So yes Lemuel could pick up auras, but the descent of Magnus when his final deal with Chaos had been brokered was not a matter of pretty little auras, but the "thin" part of reality being ripped a new one by the Warp. All Ahriman tells is of his Primarch as a savior, but glosses completely over the fact of what has really happened.

[army310]

well if in the book it saids tht the BIG E made deals with the powers of the warp too(i think its on page 298 dont got my book with me) but the book piss me off because i could see the 1k sons working well with wolf king if Magnus and his boys did not look dowm on them so much. In the book it makes Magnus seem like a good guy not too bad just lost and needed some him the light, the wolf king just thought the light was a flamer and Horus was cool with that.

[Grimtooth]

Another perspective skew was after the Council of Nikkea. The fact that the 1k Sons openly defy the Emperor's decree is glossed over as a ho-hum moment. As if what they continued to do was as normal as waking up and brushing your teeth and not for what it was, defying the Emperor of Mankind.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i have been thinking alot on Wyrdmake (which made me cringe...i hope abnett can make better names then this) and his about face on the thousand sons, and can only come to this conclusion: he was geniunely friends with ahriman, and may have been the begining of a tenative bridge between the two legions, until the thousand sons used their sorcerous powers on the wolves on shrike.

at this point, the thousand sons showed their true colors (in my book, a greater respect for knowledge than the dictats of the imperium) and used the taboo weapons against his lord and brothers.

 

WLK

[Walter Payton]

The armies at the Siege of Terra are not very clear since it has chaged 3 times at least. The Imperial forces have remained constant (except for the Blood Angels who were initially not mentioned), but the Traitor Legions at the Siege have changed. Initially. they were Horus, Fulgrim, Angron , Mortarion and Magnus. Later on Perturabo and Lorgar were also stated as being present.

 

The most modern sources place every a detachment from every traitor legion and possibly their primarchs at the siege:

 

Lorgar was definitely there along with forty companies of Word Bearers under Sor Talgron (the remainder, under Kor Phaeron, were being pimp-slapped by Roboute Guilliman).

 

Soul Hunter puts at least some the Night Lords at the siege, though Collectected Visions certainly puts Konrad Curze in the Galactic East, though he may simply have completed his objectives and returned to Horus (who was there).

 

Index Astartes: Iron Warriors puts them and Perturabo at the siege, as does Index Astartes: Imperial Fists.

 

Magnus and his sons were there according to Collected Visions.

 

Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim were all there.

 

The Alpha Legion were presumably present, but then again, no-one really knows...

[Pcm979]

What I'm most interested about is where they're going with that "there are no wolves on Fenris" thing.

[evilbeetles]

What I'm most interested about is where they're going with that "there are no wolves on Fenris" thing.

 

 

I think that was a reference to the idea that the space wolves that have their gene seeds go haywire transform into these "large wolves".

[Pcm979]

The bit which confused me was when Phosis T'Kar recognised the "alien core" of one of the wolves. Made it sound like a Xenos or Daemonic being rather than just a mutated Astartes.

[hmk17]

There is general suspicion that an ancient Tyranid Hive Fleet passed by Fenris eons ago, leaving behind some stragglers.

 

We don't know how the first human colonists seeded life onto Fenris, but Magnus flatly states that he does not believe that there is any native life to Fenris.

 

I don't buy the theory that the wolves of Fenris are mutated humans or Astartes. I'm inclined to believe that they are byproduct of the the canis helix finding its way into dormant tyranid dna. There are a plethora of animal species that are recognizable as Terran based (mastodons, elk, mammoth, etc.) but there is also fauna that is not (trolls, doppelgangrel, etc.). the colonists may have brought wolves to Fenris, but something else are now the wolves of Fenris.

 

Besides, would a werewolf have been able to see the Tutelaries much less frighten the little daemons? Or how about something that has an innate shadow in the warp...?

 

 

But back to the OP, I'm thinking that the major perspective will be that of Leman Russ. Get the updated "How I came to be story" before things get set into play. Skarss and Wyrmdrake will probably be featured and maybe be POV characters. Bullveye would be a great addition as well, given what the 13th Co will do. Will probably be more remembrancers... sigh.

 

Abnett will do a bang-up job. No doubts there. Expecting the book to be bigger and longer than Thousand Sons.

 

People give McNeil a lot of flak about Thousand Sons, but if you stand back and read it as the chronicles of Magnus' Hubris... it is a really good book as he damned himself from the beginning and with every step. But his arrogance has him see every step as that of a conqueror.

[eyeslikethunder]

I really liked it their fall was not as straight foward as the previous books. True pride before a fall story. i must admit it did linger on a bit at the end

 

I actually liked magnus unlike some of the other Primarchs from the recent books. I used to like johnson before i read the DA books. I felt the depiction of Russ was great, charismatic Alpha male with teasing sense of humour.

[Grimtooth]

People really need to read up exactly on what the Canis Helix is versus what they think it is. As far as the "no wolves on Fenris" from the book:

 

The wolves of Fenris may not be "wolves" per se, but if you were a colonist on Fenris, stepping off your colonial ship for the very first time and saw a furry "wolf-like" animal tearing one of your colonist buddies apart, you would call it a wolf. Not because it is a wolf, but because that is the only thing that would come to mind.

 

Another point to make, Thunderwolves. They are only described as being wolf-like in the loosest of terms. They are described more as being "rhinoceroid" then wolfish. They have rows of teeth in perpetual growth, ala, sharks. So why call them ThunderWOLVES?

 

The "mastadons, elk, mammoths" of Fenris? Do we know them to actually be mastadons, elk, and mammoths as we know mastadons, elk, and mammoths to be? Well we know from previous fluff that the elk are supposed to have razor sharp antlers. I have hunted elk here in Arizona and have never seen one with a razor sharp rack. Is this another case of the colonists simply naming something they see for what they know? More then likely then not.

[Emperor's Scourge]

The Canis Helix's fluff is clearly being changed here.

 

It used to be inherent in Russ's geneseed. Now, according to the HH, it was present on Fenris since it was colonized.

 

Hurray for random retcons!

[Tybrus]

SPOILER ALERT THE FOLLOWING IS MY TAKE ON WHERE GW IS GOING WITH THE LONG TERM PLANS FOR THE STORY ARCH. THESE ARE MY IDEAS AND MY IDEAS ALONE SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEN BUGGER OFF!!!! IF YOU DO LIKE THEM GREAT!!! IF YOUR GW AND YOU TRY AND STEAL THEM AND CAN'T PROVE YOU HACE CREATIVE IP BEFORE I CAN WITH MY OWN NOTES (about 4 months back) WELL MAYBE YOU CAN POINT ME TO SOME GOOD IP LAWYERS B)

 

 

 

I really enjoyed the long term stratagy being showed by Hours here.

 

He has Russ Who he knows he can't bring over to his side so long as the Emperor is alive, but if Hours can Challenge the Emperor and beat him (Take down the Alpha Male) then he knows he can back Russ down and force him in line with his plans, and if not he can kill him because he will have him away from his loyal brothers. So HE Aranges to have Russ go after the 1k and "Bring them Back" Knowing full well he was letting a wild, starved, and whipped wolfe out to hunt, because he had been sure to stroke Russ's anger long before he sent him out.

 

Now on the other hand You know you have a brother that has made a deal with the devil you now work for but he has learned enough to break his deal. (ANd don't think he didn't that was the point of the timing, he was just about the break free of his bounds" and your boss says I need these boys in Play Now.

 

Ok LEts break it down, The Emperor is building something at Earth that will be able to open the webways and block Choas out forver. This would allow the Human race to FORVER Leave the warp behind and NEVER have to touch it again. The Emperor has everything set and is planing to power it Via Magnus (And more then likly himself taking turns but who knows, it might have giving Magus unlimited knowledge and as such Magnus would never have wanted to leave). THis thing is going to go Live in the Next 10 to 20 years.

 

SO you have to step up your game now, you thought you had Magus sealed away with this deal but he has found a way around it, out of it. SOmething you missed, something YOU The all knowing Chos powers missed. Something about Free will, something about if he would pick to follow the Emperor and willing give himself over to this, he could do it. He could still bring about your worest fears. Now you have to go to plan B... Hours. See the Above info on Russ for your Trigger...

 

TRIGGER:: Ok now you send the Wolves to tear the life from the 1k in the most brutal way that can be done, and be done in the NAME OF THE EMPEROR!. Some one that Magnus KNOWS would only be doing this on his FATHERS ORDERS! You have to BREAK HIM, shatter his world around him, everything he thought he knew. Now he questions. Now he doubts. Now you have him again. Now you wisper to him again. Lure him with power he can control, ONLY HE can control. NO ONE ELSE, but you Magnus, could learn enough, only someone who could beat me in a deal could master power enough to save his world again. It would take much sacrafice from you... no to much.. No one could give that much. Give what? No better to let them die, better you die, no one could ever be able to do it. Even you Magnus even you would fail. I WOULD NOT FAIL! You would fail, and they would suffer for all time, and you would have damed them, because you failed. I WOULD NEVER FAIL THEM!!! You would not be able to help it, it can not be done. I CAN DO IT, IF I MUST DO IT FOR THEM, TO SAVE THEM, THEN I CAN DO IT, I WILL DO IT!!! No Magnus you would never agree even would that I offer it to you a second time, you would never enter into such a deal again, knowing what you know now, knowing you would be bound to the deal, unable to break it. WAIT, THE DEAL, another deal? Yes Magnus I still hold power here, much power, but it fades fast, as the wolf rages your fathers warth aganist your sons I lose my hold. With the death of each of them, my hold is weakend, soon I must leave. WAIT...A DEAL....YOU...SAID A DEAL....??? yes magnus a deal like before, a deal to save your sons, but this time I know your trick. It will not work again, this time you will be mine.........unless you can find another trick I might have missed....but liked I said no one could do that twice... Do you want the deal Magnus, you must act now, Curse your father for waht he has done, cast him from your heart and give yourself to me, and they will be safe........You will have all of time to serve me, to be my slave, but you will have all of time to find that second trick magnus... but ... like i said.... no one... no ..... no one is that good, no know could know that much, not even......not even a god!

 

 

 

WELCOME TO CHAOS MAGNUS!!!!!!!

[Grimtooth]

The Canis Helix's fluff is clearly being changed here.

 

It used to be inherent in Russ's geneseed. Now, according to the HH, it was present on Fenris since it was colonized.

 

Hurray for random retcons!

 

According to Magnus. That is not canon, just propahanda from a primarch that had already brokered a deal with Chaos.

 

In fact the whole chapter on "there are no wolves on Fenris" is just based on Magnus' account of how "he" has studied the genetic structure of the wolves and how he assumes that the only way the original settlers could have survived was by genetic manipulation.

 

The feral spirit defying the arcane writing mechanic, such as the Fenrisian wolves scaring away the 1k Sons little ghost buddies, is not a new thing. The first example that pops into my head is Conan of Cimmeria. He has battled sorcery and the arcane all over the Hyborian Age with the underlying theme of all his sorcerous enemies being defeated by the feral barbarian spirit to survive.

 

Leman Russ' howl is the epitome of the ferocity of that feral spirit in its description and affect against the 1k Sons. This is shown in a lesser extent among his brethren and Fenrisian wolves in battle against the 1k Sons, the possessed Eldar titans, and battle in the catacombs.

 

In my opinion, the SW are the scissors to the 1k Sons paper because of this bred from birth feral ferocity.

[Skalver]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are many things in Prospero Burns that openly contradict what is in A Thousand Sons. Both authors seemed eager to explore the idea that the books are both biased tellings of the tale with the truth lying somewhere in between. A Thousand Sons is Ahrimans telling of the tale, can his version of events be trusted? Would he be manipulating even the reader by changing subtle details to portrak his legion as innocent victims in all this? Would the version of the tale as recounted by a Space Wolf (it would be interesting if it was Bjorn narrating Prospero Burns, two versions of the same story from two of the few people surviving) be any less prone to having self serving biases and inaccuracies?

 

SPOILERS BELOW

 

Things I wouldn't be surprised to see mentioned differently. I wouldn't be surprised if Nikea did not interdict all librarians but instead made an interdiction against sorcery and consorting with warp entities. A lot of the 1k sons power seems to come from warp entities and perhaps is not the "natural" psychic power that is emergent in the human race. The only other option is that all loyalist chapters chose to go against the will of the emperor which seems ludicrous. I wouldn't be surprised either if the battle for prospero itself is very different. I could also see the Space Wolves orders from the Emperor being a lot more direct than is portrayed in the early heresy books. The Space Wolf account won't show them as having been duped by Horus into over-reacting to Magnus behaviour (though given how Prospero Burns ends it is hard to say the Space Wolves were anything less than moderate in their reaction :D ).

 

I think overall it is a nice chance to muddy the waters of the whole HH series of books. It has been hinted at before that we are getting A version of events and not THE version and this is a great opportunity to sow some confusion and contradiction into the whole mess.