Should we feel un-wolfy when/if we spam?

[Levitas]

Spam-spam-spam. Always in 3s. Why?

 

I see it in long fangs a lot, 5 MLs then rinse and repeat till you run out of heavy support choices. Greyhunters too. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Now, I am not bashing spam as it can really strengthen a list, but for a wolf it feels...wrong.

 

We are limited by our HQ loadout as these heroes are fierce about their individuality, we simply cannot spam them for fluff reasons. Yet the rest of the units we can, and many times do. Should we?

 

I truly admire wolf players, for in them there is massive creativity for modeling and forging individual sagas - just look at the excellent conversions that swamp this forum every day. Thats why they gave us more individual heads than we could ever make wolves for, so that every space wolf could be different. Yet we spam anyways. Did Russ have a twin? no. There was one. Do we follow rules and the codex? No, as we like to be different, rebellious, individual.

 

I spent some time de-spaming my lists without diluting any of the power. I feel better now, its good to be different.

 

Just random thoughts...

[Hfran Morkai]

So long as you personally are comfortable with your lists then it is fine.

 

However I had a great realization of the same nature, I used to spam quite frequently because it worked. However in my Heresy army each pack is different, even if it is only sticking a Plasma Pistol on that one Grey Hunter pack to make it different to the other assault type pack.

 

And that's with six Grey Hunter packs, one Blood, Swift and Skyclaw pack, two LF packs and five Scout packs.

 

In my Wolf Guard packs each member is armed individually, not one repetition in the same pack, across packs in this case sure, but that's to have some useful kits. The most spammy thing I have is two Dreadnoughts with the same loadouts.

[sazzer]

Not specifically about being spammy, but I do tend to build my over-arching army lists based more on fluff than on what's the most powerful combinations. My Death Guard army is full of units of 7 men, even though actual CSM units are better off being 10 now. It's also got no heavy weapons on the "normal" marines - Terminators do have them (And annoyingly I've got two heavy weapons on my unit of 7 Terminators which isn't legal in the newer codex) and armour has them but the actual CSM/PM units don't...

 

For my wolves, I'm doing Blood Claws with drop pods and - for the only unit I've built so far - a flamer. With the requirement to not shoot and change when you are in 6" range (Without a WG leader) the flamer isn't the most useful weapon for them but from a fluff point of view I think it fits wonderfully... I can just see a unit of young blood claws charging forwards towards the greenskins bellowing flames in front of them as they go... The Drop pods aren't as ideal as Rhinos either when you consider they prefer close combat to shooting, and the drop pods mean that you get to stand around for a turn shooting badly before getting to charge, but again it feels much fluffier to drop the young 'uns right into the enemy lines whilst the more experienced warriors are brought in...

[Aeddon]

I started out with a healthy helping of spam but I've been trying out different builds so that I can field a more unique force. My previous list consisted of 3 GH packs (imagine that) with 9 GH's each, PF, Melta, Wolf standard and a WGPL with PF and Combi-M all loaded in a DP.

More recently I keep one GH pack slightly different than the one listed above. I've changed that one to 8 GH's with a PF, Melta, Wolf standard and a WGPL in TDA with CF and Combi-M all loaded in a DP.

I've added a pack of 8 GH's with PG, PP, WGPL with a Combi-P and a Storm Bolter, all mounted in a Rhino and led by a RP.

I'm also trying to find a good build for BC's.

 

To get back to your question though, the codex gives you specific cases where we can't spam. It also leaves other places wide open for spamming. I believe this is because the intent is to have the characters be highly individualistic while leaving them the tactical flexability they need to be successful. Is a Wolf Lord going to command his Longfang pack to take Lascannons when he needs that tank busted? Or are his hands tied because olde Egil refuses to part with his Heavy Bolter?

[Grey Mage]

I frankly dont think theres ever a need to spam units, unless its something like the landspeeder typhoon where you may not enjoy other LS variants. I always run atleast two different types of GHs, one or two different types of HQ not just different loadouts, etc etc.

 

Its not even wether or not its fluffy.... its just plain unneeded and seems to be tactically shooting yourself in the foot.

 

If you bring spam to a game, and your opponent has the right tool for the job of removing unit type A1 from your list.... well, now hes goint to easily remove several from your list because hes also got the right tool for that too. Your gambling that they wont have it on their swiss army knife... and against a balanced opposing army its a gamble your going to lose alot.

[Bulweih]

That's an interesting thought.

Last time I played, my buddy stated, that it's fairly hard for him to customize his list against my wolves, because in the 12 games we played so far, I always fielded a different force. That makes me feel like beeing on the save side ;) .

I'm still trying out stuff to know all my packs for the really big games in which they all come to play. And I'm still adding new models to be more versatile.

I won all of our late games, so it works for me I guess.

[Blarmb]

I don't think so. Honestly the fluff supports spam. Reading the descriptions of the Great Companies/Wolf Lords they all strongly favor certain tactics & units. For example, I don't see how using up all your HS slots on Long Fangs is at all un-wolfy/fluffy if you run them as Gunnar Red Moon's Great Company.

 

Grey Hunters are supposed to be the backbone of the SWs anyway. It makes sense that they would make up the bulk of most normal forces.

[Stormbrow II]

Do we follow rules and the codex?

It's my army. You don't like it? I'll give you the finger.

 

Fluff is utterly irrelevant to armies anyways. It's too subjective.

[Skalver]

Do we follow rules and the codex?

It's my army. You don't like it? I'll give you the finger.

 

Fluff is utterly irrelevant to armies anyways. It's too subjective.

 

Someone is a bit touchy about the subject ;).

 

Generally there are those who spam and think its fine and those who spam and are secretly ashamed of their cheesy powergaming ways. Only the later group get angry when you mention it because the accusation hits a nerve. Those who genuinely think what they are doing is fine just laugh at the notion.

[stinkenheim]

all my grey hunter packs are equiped the same, as are my WG terminators. i don't see it as spamming just keeping units that i am used to tatically. my grey hunters have flamers, power weapon, meltgun and totem, as well as a WG with TDA power fist and storm bolter. its not the optimum set up, nor is it a powergaming setup. its simply a decent all round unit. i fail to see how having one unit with an additional plasma pistol, or with two flamers is any more fluffy, as these units are perfectly able to work either on their own or in tandem, perfectly fitting when you consider a pack hunting prey. some of the pack will operate to prevent the prey from fleeing, others to force the prey into the jaws of hidden pack mates.

 

also its worth mentioning that the limitation on wargear only got introduced with the new codex, there was no mention before of characters getting their knickers in a twist over shared weaponry before.

not saying the fluff is irrelevant or wrong, but its worth remembering not everyone follows the same fluff. many long beards ehre may still prefer olderfluff over the newer stuff and likewise somemay prefer the newer fluff over the older. its all personal opinion and no one is right or wrong, so have fun and do what you want to do.

 

+edit+ it is worth mentioning that not all types of 'spam' are even remotely related to powergaming. for instance my IG army consists almost entirely of platoons equiped in the same manner, 10 guardsmen, vox and flamer. occassionally i have a boltpistol or such likeon the srg but normally thats the standard load out. i have two units with a meltagun and one with plasma pistol/plasmagun. now in no way is it powergaming to take flamers, but it fits with my armies theme as a cityfighting force. i also use mortars and griffons alot and have very few tanks in my force.

its not like im doing the mech vet spam that is found in the majority of tournaments, i simply play a force to a theme and keep units similar so that i know how they will deal with certain situations. it also helps me to know when to reinfore positions, or when to prepare for a counter assault.

so please, don't accuse those who 'spam' of being powergamers unless you know what they spam and why.

i realise you mention two perceived types, but its still better not to run the risk of possibly insulting people with terms like 'powergamer'. all the best

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Do we follow rules and the codex?

It's my army. You don't like it? I'll give you the finger.

 

Fluff is utterly irrelevant to armies anyways. It's too subjective.

 

Sounds like someone's had a butter-side-down day...

[TiguriusX]

As others have mentioned, power-gaming and spam are not the same thing.

 

Spam, or unit redundancy, is an accepted military stratagem (sidebar: The entire reason we have an internet is due to the importance of redundancy to DARPA).

 

Infantry should be fungible. They don't have a high survival rate so you get what you need by providing them in significant numbers.

 

Special purpose units/weapons should also be duplicated because if you are relying on one guy to do a task murphy's law tells you that guy will not be available or he will fail then the entire remainder of your army is SOL.

 

I think we have plenty of room for diversity in the different types of units (LS based....TWC....Sky Claws etc) that form an army. But for each different flavor of army there is good reason to have redundancy.

[Stormbrow II]

Someone is a bit touchy about the subject smile.gif.

Not particularly no. I just don't like anyone else dictating to me about how I should play with my toy soldiers.

 

Generally there are those who spam and think its fine and those who spam and are secretly ashamed of their cheesy powergaming ways.

I'm a cheesy powergamer. Big deal.

 

AFAIC, if something is in the Codex then it's fair game. If a combination is popular or easy to use then why should you not use it? Especially as this hobby is expensive and I'd rather not spend a small fortune on :cussehawk units that make me a Sad Panda when they underperform (Skyclaws I'm looking at you). I'm not that pushed if you are going to purposely handicap yourself by not using certain units. I am pushed when you berate me for 'selling out' by not following your example.

[Hfran Morkai]

AFAIC, if something is in the Codex then it's fair game. If a combination is popular or easy to use then why should you not use it?

 

Amen to that!

 

Take what you want, that is the reason I individualize my packs, for specific roles on the battlefield and I think it looks good.

[Grimtooth]

The right tool for the job!

 

I run dual meltas in 3 GH packs, dual plasma in 1 GH pack, and dual flamer in 2 GH packs.

 

As someone pointed out redundancy, is more then a valid tactic. Mix matching special weapons is asking for a situation where if one goes down you have either limited your tactical use of that squad or have eliminated its planned tactical use completely.

 

Trying to fluff out your squads to the point of ineffectiveness is pretty stupid IMO.

[Aeddon]

All fair points but I believe what is most important is that you play the way that is most enjoyable for you. If it's all about the win, go for it! If you're more concerned with what you consider to be "fluffy", than great! Different playstyles lend themselves to different builds, some are more challenging by nature which is what some players prefer to play. Thing to remember though, none of these things are good reasons to get all upset at the other side, just play the damned game already...

 

@Stormbrow II ~ there's absolutely nothing wrong with my Skyclaws :D

[Grimtooth]

All fair points but I believe what is most important is that you play the way that is most enjoyable for you. If it's all about the win, go for it! If you're more concerned with what you consider to be "fluffy", than great! Different playstyles lend themselves to different builds, some are more challenging by nature which is what some players prefer to play. Thing to remember though, none of these things are good reasons to get all upset at the other side, just play the damned game already...

 

@Stormbrow II ~ there's absolutely nothing wrong with my Skyclaws :D

 

Agreed.

 

However, individualizing your Space Wolves army to the point of ineffectiveness is unfluffy. They are after all one of the most elite forces of the Imperium with over 10,000yrs of fighting and tactical experience.

[Logan230]

To me, Fluff is of greater importance than game play, but I'm not going to gimp my army for the sake of fluff. I am able to justify my "spam" units by saying that my Great Company has no problem with wargear being the same between squads because every squad "knows" they have a specific purpose and there will be multiple packs assigned to that purpose. It helps that I am very realistic and like to think my Wolf Lord will not sacrifice lives just so that everybody can be different. If it works use it. I do draw the line at more than 2 of a single HQ, and the stupidness of a 2 Librarian, 3 Furiouso Librarian Dreadnought all with Wings and Blood Lance that I saw on the BA forum for 'Ard Boyz.

 

*goes gets link*

This one: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=200568 .

 

I think we can all agree that 5 Librarians is kinda much. My .02 isk.

[Emperor's Scourge]

I see this argument a lot and it always seems to come from the wrong angle. Namely fluff. How is it any more fluffy to have a flamer and a plasma instead of two flamers etc etc?

 

All to often the truth comes out. Its not about fluff. Its about the person complaining looking for a reason to hate on a combo they don't like to match up against.

 

For instance, say that points values represent how common a weapon is in actual army terms.

 

A bunch of vanilla SM tact squads carrying flamer/missile launcher makes sense since those are most readily available. Whereas a plasmagun would more rare.(backed up by fluff)

[Grey Mage]

AFAIC, if something is in the Codex then it's fair game. If a combination is popular or easy to use then why should you not use it?

 

Because when someone knows how to devastate those units off hand, and break those combinations like they were unsupported sallies your boned. The use of multiple unit types makes you a better general in the long run, because you know what works and your more likely to have the tools for any job instead of just the ones for the most common ones.

 

Example: You see alot of lists that are basicly the same on the GT circuit... why?

 

Because someone did well with one of them. Others decided to simply use whatever combination was doing best against the current metagame... until the metagame is changed. Then those lists are suddenly not doing very well.... because someone else brought in the rock to their scissors.

 

Meditate on balance, learn the strengths and weaknesses of every option, and the path of victory is wide open.

[Levitas]

Can i just clarify that I was not attacking spam lists, i run them myself time to time. And its not about complaining at a particular spam build that crushes me. I dont believe that a fluffy list has to be weak, or that a spam list is instantly strong. I just decided that I wanted to try a few tweaks and mix it up, maybe finding new techniques.

 

I'm interested by the duplication vs balance, and the fact this subject is such a powder keg. Why is that?? Re-read my post and tell me if at all I was aggressive towards spam? yet within a few posts i get the finger.

 

For me the hobby is fun when trying new lists, and I had gone into a trend of duplicating units. Then I blasted a fellow gamer out the park and decided it was a hollow victory. I had the scissors to his paper. On the other side, a nid player on the same day ran right through only pausing to add BBQ sauce to my units. Then I got to thinking about the new HQ fluff, and so on and so on. Do I want an all-comers or a specific tailored list? I dont want random for randoms sake or to dilute, but also want a characterful force.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

I only spam the 2 meltergun 10 man GH pack with attached WG with PF, because it is effective against a majority of targets that I face. Vehicles=MG and PF. Light infantry=Bolters and CC. Heavy Infantry=MG and numbers. I used to run a flamer squad but it had limited usability and plasmas just dont hav that anti tank punch that I really need in the game.

[LoneSniperSG]

Do we follow rules and the codex?

It's my army. You don't like it? I'll give you the finger.

 

Fluff is utterly irrelevant to armies anyways. It's too subjective.

 

Sure, that's why my Leman Russ Vanquisher will almost always show up in my IG, because it's so terribly useful against everything, not because it's simply the Armor commander's tank.

 

I try to have atleast a minimally fluffy list. Sometimes fluff all over is fun, sometimes it's nice to forget it, but I always go back to it, because to me, it gives the whole thing some structure, especially when the game itself is about telling a story, as Jervis has said many times.

[TiguriusX]

Can i just clarify that I was not attacking spam lists, i run them myself time to time. And its not about complaining at a particular spam build that crushes me. I dont believe that a fluffy list has to be weak, or that a spam list is instantly strong. I just decided that I wanted to try a few tweaks and mix it up, maybe finding new techniques.

 

I'm interested by the duplication vs balance, and the fact this subject is such a powder keg. Why is that?? Re-read my post and tell me if at all I was aggressive towards spam? yet within a few posts i get the finger.

 

For me the hobby is fun when trying new lists, and I had gone into a trend of duplicating units. Then I blasted a fellow gamer out the park and decided it was a hollow victory. I had the scissors to his paper. On the other side, a nid player on the same day ran right through only pausing to add BBQ sauce to my units. Then I got to thinking about the new HQ fluff, and so on and so on. Do I want an all-comers or a specific tailored list? I dont want random for randoms sake or to dilute, but also want a characterful force.

Technically you are bashing spam lists. You opened by saying it feels wrong for a Wolf player to do it. ;)

 

I guess it would be better off if you defined exactly what "spam" is b/c you can see the replies are trying to distinguish "spam" from "power gaming spam"

 

For example...I consider this power gaming spam

-3 or more units of 5xGH + Razorback + TLLC or LC + TLPG

-3 or more units of 3xWG + Razorback + TLLC or LC + TLPG

 

Someone is trying to spend the minimum amount of points to put multiple razorbacks on the field

 

I don't consider this power gaming spam

-3 or more units of

9xGH + Melta + Wolf standard + MOTW + PF + Rhino

WG + Combi-melta + PF

 

I see this as a well equipped infantry assault squad...most armies are composed of multiple infantry squads. The points are significant as well so it isn't about max/min type building IMO

 

I also don't consider this power gaming spam

-2 or more units of

LF with 5ML or 3ML 2LC etc.

 

I build LFs for long range AV support. A single LF squad may be blocked by LOS or tied up or even focus fired and neutralized. As I discussed earlier, this falls under unit redundancy for a vital task IMO.

 

Don't feel bad about starting a thread that is a hot topic. That is the entire point of a message board!

[Emperor's Scourge]

Anyone else notice that none of the folks complaining about redundancy post their lists? I'd love to see the right way to play this game guys.