Should we feel un-wolfy when/if we spam?

[Beef]

Personnaly I dont play spam list cos I did not even know what they were until today, Hell I just build what I like and use it, Hence I don't win very often, The guy that in 3rd and 4th would keep my Lord wolf alive over a blood claw. I think this thread needs to calm down a bit before Lord Rags kicks some heads.

 

And before some of the newer member start to complain to much about Decoy just rememeber theres atleast 3 or 4 of you he is debating with so I am sure you guys can handle it. Besides he is going easy on you.

 

And Yes i agree with what Decoy says in regards to the people defending spam lists seem to be newer members. But in fairness to you guys I rememeber when i first started out I wanted to win also. Not anymore though, FLUFF is the most important thing to me followed by modelling, Gaming comes a distant last.

 

@ Requiem I dont know which wolf lord would paint his armour pink, If one did I dont think it would be true that nobody in his company would challenge him. Wolfs always challenge their superiers. Just like they do in the wild.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Personnaly I dont play spam list cos I did not even know what they were until today, Hell I just build what I like and use it, Hence I don't win very often, The guy that in 3rd and 4th would keep my Lord wolf alive over a blood claw. I think this thread needs to calm down a bit before Lord Rags kicks some heads.

 

And before some of the newer member start to complain to much about Decoy just rememeber theres atleast 3 or 4 of you he is debating with so I am sure you guys can handle it. Besides he is going easy on you.

 

And Yes i agree with what Decoy says in regards to the people defending spam lists seem to be newer members. But in fairness to you guys I rememeber when i first started out I wanted to win also. Not anymore though, FLUFF is the most important thing to me followed by modelling, Gaming comes a distant last.

 

@ Requiem I dont know which wolf lord would paint his armour pink, If one did I dont think it would be true that nobody in his company would challenge him. Wolfs always challenge their superiers. Just like they do in the wild.

Ok yes they might very well challenge him on it,but he would turn around and trounce them. and then they would go and get their armor painted pink lol. the point I was making is that the Wolf lord (or player) is the final decision on how his army functions (as long as they follow codex rules lol)

[Sarapham]

Here is how I see it.

 

The individuality of the Space wolves come in the form of yourself as a commander, and as Requiem said you as a wolf lord, and therefore affect your force as a whole. It is you as a commander who is the beacon of individuality and gives that individuality to your units through modelling, painting and playing.

 

What Decoy says is really strange as you say that the fluff states individuality, but it does not state what that has to come from. What is really the difference between having a rule-wise individuality by giving a squad a plasma pistol at random "just because" and my squad looking different because I modeled them differently with different markings and different tales of valor. What that means is that you still cherish the rules over the fluff since the focus is on tangible difference rather than fluffy ones which was what I though you wanted. I´m just trying to wrap my head around that and not really saying you are wrong in thinking so, but that you seem to be contradicting yourself. After all, if the fluff is the most important thing what is the difference in individuality between having an extra plasma pistol, which are in the codex... or an extra wolf pelt and marking which are just on the model in a squad since in the fluff both should be equal.

[commander alexander]

Can we all just agree that spamming, or what have you is based on the persons perspective ? Its a game, and games have rules, but within those rules people can play it how they like. We always seem to get wrapped up in these arguments where theres no right answer. Kudos to the man who has every squad different, but I will also respect the person who writes lists competitively.

[hendrik]

*quitetly hendrik appears in the drinking hall, sadness clearly visible on his scarred face*

i believe there has been enough calling on eachother and that we should conclude some things:

-fluff just doesn't work in game mechanics ,not by having a fluffy or unfluffy list, but just look at our marine statline, is this what it looks like if you read about a marine in the stories? each of us worth a 100 men?no it isen't but that's the game.

If you don't like something and think of it as unfluffy just try to ignore it and make sure you don't do it yourself. for example; call me an old wolf,stuck to his habits but i'm one of those few wolves here who simply refuse to use thunderwolves because we didn't have them before, and i don't find them fluffy. does this make me a fluff player or not? on one side we have the fact that i'm quite adherent to the old dex, which has been our main fluff source for years and on the other we have the viking rides wolf aspect, which some of uw SW player is dominating. the conclusion is there isen't a fluffy way to play.

The way i see it a game is just a small battle of many of wolf will find himself in. each obviously on various occasions because of the wide array of opponents one faces. but now, good pups and fellow greybeards, sit down calmly, take a sip of my ale and pass it around while i tell you some stories of olde that could fluff'flifly(see i invented a new word!) a spam list.

 

" wolf lord bran sniffed , he could hear it , he could feel it in the ground and tast it in the air. the rebels were preparing an all our mechanized attack on the city. since his scout intel had told him the enemy had quite an amount leman russes and other various heavily armour vehicles, bran had ordered that each pack would carry as many meltaguns with them as they could. by doing this bran hoped to stop the tanks before they reached the second line of defence. this line was made of mere civilians,armed with whatever weapon hey could get their hands on. some of them had raided the local pdf weapon deposit and were armed with various weapons, going from a lowly laspistol to some lascanons. but still, bran knew these weren't warriors and that, should the enemy reach this line, there would be a total massacre. this was not to happen, and by russ it wouldn't!" I tell you pup, it's not normal for bran to order us all to use meltaweapons but russ be praised that we did! a bloody defeat we would have suffered if we haden't!

[Requiem of the Wolf]

*quitetly hendrik appears in the drinking hall, sadness clearly visible on his scarred face*

i believe there has been enough calling on eachother and that we should conclude some things:

-fluff just doesn't work in game mechanics ,not by having a fluffy or unfluffy list, but just look at our marine statline, is this what it looks like if you read about a marine in the stories? each of us worth a 100 men?no it isen't but that's the game.

If you don't like something and think of it as unfluffy just try to ignore it and make sure you don't do it yourself. for example; call me an old wolf,stuck to his habits but i'm one of those few wolves here who simply refuse to use thunderwolves because we didn't have them before, and i don't find them fluffy. does this make me a fluff player or not? on one side we have the fact that i'm quite adherent to the old dex, which has been our main fluff source for years and on the other we have the viking rides wolf aspect, which some of uw SW player is dominating. the conclusion is there isen't a fluffy way to play.

The way i see it a game is just a small battle of many of wolf will find himself in. each obviously on various occasions because of the wide array of opponents one faces. but now, good pups and fellow greybeards, sit down calmly, take a sip of my ale and pass it around while i tell you some stories of olde that could fluff'flifly(see i invented a new word!) a spam list.

 

" wolf lord bran sniffed , he could hear it , he could feel it in the ground and tast it in the air. the rebels were preparing an all our mechanized attack on the city. since his scout intel had told him the enemy had quite an amount leman russes and other various heavily armour vehicles, bran had ordered that each pack would carry as many meltaguns with them as they could. by doing this bran hoped to stop the tanks before they reached the second line of defence. this line was made of mere civilians,armed with whatever weapon hey could get their hands on. some of them had raided the local pdf weapon deposit and were armed with various weapons, going from a lowly laspistol to some lascanons. but still, bran knew these weren't warriors and that, should the enemy reach this line, there would be a total massacre. this was not to happen, and by russ it wouldn't!" I tell you pup, it's not normal for bran to order us all to use meltaweapons but russ be praised that we did! a bloody defeat we would have suffered if we haden't!

Well spoken Old One, And mighty fine ale as well. As one who may not be long in tooth but accorded some cunning by friends and enemies,I think we should be wary less of whether our squads are all geared alike and more of whether our squads and tactics are static and unchanging,thus easily countered by our enemies. For lovers of Fluff Or lovers of Powergames, neither side really likes to lose. And the surest way to lose is to become predictable.

 

As for the Thunderwolves...even in the oldest codex's it describes Fenris as filled with monstrous creatures all of them more deadly then the last. And furry four legged land sharks make as much sense as the krakens and other sea serpents. And If I could do the modeling for it,I would make my Thunderwolves shaped like a Rhinoceros with a shark style mouth and a vaguely wolf shaped head. It wouldn't be sleek or Pretty,But It would look intimidating as hell.

[commander alexander]

As for the Thunderwolves...even in the oldest codex's it describes Fenris as filled with monstrous creatures all of them more deadly then the last. And furry four legged land sharks make as much sense as the krakens and other sea serpents. And If I could do the modeling for it,I would make my Thunderwolves shaped like a Rhinoceros with a shark style mouth and a vaguely wolf shaped head. It wouldn't be sleek or Pretty,But It would look intimidating as hell.

 

Can you say... Juggernaut?

[Skalver]

i'm one of those few wolves here who simply refuse to use thunderwolves because ... i don't find them fluffy

 

Must be some mangy fleabitten thunderwolves in your corner of the fang. The one in my part are covered in fluff from head to tail :o.

[Grey Mage]

I do not use TWs myself, Im not convinced of them, but I cant look down on anyone for using them....

 

Myself, I have other choices to put in for the same roles, so I havent been forced to experiment with them.

[Emperor's Scourge]

A Wolf Lord on a thunder wolf mount is one of the coolest looking models on the table top. Not a huge points sink either. Kind of a big target when he's alone though.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

I will use one,purely because I love the way they look. And with some set up you can have him be a wonderful fire magnet. That and I enjoy the idea of my Wolf Lord running down his enemies and feeding them to his Thunderwolf.

[Hfran Morkai]

The only time you should feel unwolfy is when the fire of battle no longer stirs a howl from deep within your chest, when casting down traitors, heretics and xenos becomes a chore, not a chance to test oneself upon the field of battle. You are no longer a wolf when you have no desire to hear the sagas of your brothers over a Fenrisian ale.

 

Only once these omens have occurred should you feel unlike a wolf, and then I suggest you seek out your local Wolf Priest.

 

For the Company, the Sixth Legion, for Russ and the Allfather!

[Aeddon]

The only time you should feel unwolfy is when the fire of battle no longer stirs a howl from deep within your chest, when casting down traitors, heretics and xenos becomes a chore, not a chance to test oneself upon the field of battle. You are no longer a wolf when you have no desire to hear the sagas of your brothers over a Fenrisian ale.

 

Only once these omens have occurred should you feel unlike a wolf, and then I suggest you seek out your local Wolf Priest.

 

For the Company, the Sixth Legion, for Russ and the Allfather!

^One of the best posts in this topic

 

And thank you also Brother Hendrik

[TiguriusX]

First off I'd like to say IMHO there is a balance between super fluff and enjoying your games. I personally dislike allied codexes and the allied inquisitor + mystic combo. If I were in charge of a tournament I would set rules to eliminate that crap and restrict people to their codex. I also think the tournament space goats list was disturbing and it was the first time I realized we didn't have a unit cap on WLs. All that aside, I have issues with people who judge others based on "fluff" because it is usually an arbitrary process. They just don't "feel" like your list is acceptable. I prefer logic. I start with the codex rules because they are spelled out. People who argue fluff usually can't explain why.

 

All right, since you've bitten the bait, we'll run with this (and address Tigurius as well.) The only thing I ask is you forgive any typos, considering my hands are numb from weedeating.

 

Through the course of the Codex (call it my codex if you will, Tigurius), there are almost innumerable descriptions of the Space Wolves. I could give exact quotes, and I will if you desire it, but for now, I'll save my time and simply paraphrase. Those major descriptions essentially point out the following:

Let us be clear here. There are in fact 2 "codexes" being discussed here. When I refer to a "codex" I mean a set of rules regarding legal army lists. You obviously have a different set of rules than the SW codex. So yes...it is YOUR version of the codex.

 

*Each Great Company tends to favor a specific type of approach to war, not from a tactical mindset, but simply from preference.

*Each Space Wolf (Not just HQ choices) are highly individualistic.

*Each Space Wolf has a specific identity, inclusive of independant or special characters.

*Certain Space Wolves know "The soul" of every weapon in the armory, and will "take every opportunity to prove it". (Long fangs, particularly.)

*Certain Space Wolves are of such a determined mindset to slay that even the Great Wolf himself will not countermand them.

*In the case of Wolf Guard, they are expected to fight in the style in which they excel.

*Rountinely, weapons-selection is stated as the unit in question having an "Arsenal" of weaponry to choose from.

 

I could continue going with examples all throughout the book. However, every Fluff mention of anything approaching Wargear is rather straightforward in leaning away from cookie-cutter builds. Hell, we have a rule -specifically- for that.

The HQs are already given so there is no need to argue or discuss this. The fluff supports individual HQs and the rules clearly spell that out. Lets move on to troops and other choices.

 

How do you stay true to the LF fluff quote? Do you rotate your LF configurations every game? Do you take 1 of every single heavy weapon? Do you provide them with a razorback and consider it ok because the array of heavy weapons inside the vehicle?

 

How do you stay true to the Landspeeder fluff (p.46)? Do you always use deepstrike rules? Do we take them in groups or 3 or is that spam just for vanilla SMs who need scouts?

 

How do we stay true to GH fluff stating that numbers are never replenished? Do we make random sized squads or just no repeats?

 

I am trying to identify a particular rule set that satisfies your "fluffy SW army" concept, particularly the troops/GHs. I would love more examples particularly with citations. All the grand statements about a true SW provide squat towards defining the Decoy SW codex.

 

I could continue going with examples all throughout the book. However, every Fluff mention of anything approaching Wargear is rather straightforward in leaning away from cookie-cutter builds. Hell, we have a rule -specifically- for that.

I would love this. Specifically the rule you are referring to (unless it is the HQ rule).

 

Did you know that according to our fluff "plasma guns and the blazing bolts of energy they fire are very popular with the Space Wolves" (emphasis added). I prefer melta over plasma myself (can't resist the urge to assault) but that fluffy entry might lead one to believe spamming plasma is actually a wolfy thing to do.

 

So, the one main argument in terms of fluff is that certain Wolf Lords have specific styles of war. Ragnar is a drop-podder, Bloodhowl uses close combat specialists, Grimblood uses flamers (and lots of 'em). However, nowhere in these fluff snippets does it come anywhere near stating that "everyone uses the same weaponry." Grimblood is the closest, at best, simply because his Grey Hunters can only paint their faces once they have killed an enemy with flame. However, by that token, if someone were to attempt to justify their "flamer-spam", you have to realize that things like Wolf Guard, Blood Claws, et cetera would be built the same (No Cyclone for you, by your argument, get your heavy flamer) or not at all. Meaning those Blood Claws and Wolf Guard sarges best have flamers and combi-flamers. Redmaw? Same thing. Just because you have the Curse of the Wulfen prevalent in your army doesn't mean that all six of your Hunter squads should have flamer-plasmas as their special weaponry. Try mixing it up.

So your main argument is that the SW fluff doesn't expressly say we can do ABC therefore we can't? Does that mean I can only build an army I have seen in fluff somewhere? I have to follow one of the named WLs and can't make my own style even though the codex allows generic WLs?

 

The SW fluff I have seen is not based on 1500pt or 2000pt Space Wolf army lists. I have seen squad based fluff (Ragnar series for example) and a few large scale fluff stories. I have never seen specifics regarding wargear layouts for GH pack #1 as compared to GH pack #2 (this is most likely because wargear is changed as needed by the situation). Do I have to keep everyone with basic bolters?

 

As an aside, different "styles" of war have no impact on whether a WL has unit redundancy. It means the various WLs prefer different tools to get the job done (i.e., swiftclaw heavy as opposed to scout heavy or fenrisian wolf heavy or drop pod heavy). I guarantee there is unit redundancy for those units within those specific great companies.

 

 

Anyways, despite the relatively convoluted argument, the point is simple. Cookie-cutter builds go against everything, fluffwise, that the Wolves represent. If you insist that fluff doesn't matter and you're just going to play how you want to play (be it because you can't think up a decent list, or want to "Be competitive"), be prepared to accept that folk will consider you a beardy powergaming flavor-of-the-month Gee-dub whore. If you want to play cookie-cutter builds, go play a Codex Marine army... But then again, if you did that, you'd have to give up your precious, precious powergaming goodness, and I know how much powergamers are loathe to do that.

Is cookie cutter different from spam? I view cookie cutter as copying the same unit...even if it is singular (like an allied inquisitor + mystics).

Is a LF squad with 5 ML or 3ML 2LC cookie cutter and not allowed?

 

Short answer as to why it's un-Wolfy to spam cookie-cutters: Because the Codex says so.

The general SW codex does not say so. In fact, one specific change from the previous codex to the current codex is removing the cap from wolf standards. Am I allowed to put that in every GH unit now and still qualify as fluffy? My GH are proud of my great company and honors their specific packs have achieved. Is that spam?

 

The Decoy codex says no spam cookie-cutters. And as I am trying to get across to you, the Decoy codex is arbitrary with no set rules.

 

The one rule you gave in a different reply makes absolutely no sense to me

 

Oh, I think you mistake me, Ramses. I don't mean that armies designed with multiple roles are spam, I'm talking more specifically about four, five, six squads, all with all-plasma and a pistol. Cookie-cutter. If you happen to have three melta-squads and three flamer-squads, that's tactically sound as a general rule.

 

What I tend to rage against is people who run EXACTLY THE SAME SQUAD, three and four and five times. All it takes is a five or ten point piece of wargear to differentiate the squads, keeping the squads both fluffy and tactically sound. I agree with you, having all squads take all different weapons is indeed tactically and strategically unsound. That is no excuse, however, for four to six to twelve squads all running the exact same configuration. That, by it's very nature, is what I consider "unfluffy".

3+ identical squads is spam?

I'm a 1500pt player and 3-4 GH squads is usually the upper limit. This is a sample army I am comfortable with and have posted in the army list section: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2336921

 

Basically 3 "cookie-cutter/spam" assault oriented GHs in Rhinos with LF support

 

According to your rule, expressly laid out above for Ramses, I can cookie cutter spam 2 of my assault oriented GHs + WG in a rhino and you are perfectly fine with that? All I have to do for the 3rd squad is add something different (add a PP for instance) and that takes me into fluff compliance?

 

So, the conclusion I am left with is that a single plasma pistol wargear item can transform an army which goes "against everything, fluffwise, that the Wolves represent" into one that is fine and acceptable fluffwise?

 

The difference between you going ape *EDIT* :cuss over the lack of a truly fluffy SW army that represents the very soul and core of the SW to accepting it as a true fluffy SW list comes down to a single change to one unit involving 5-15 points in wargear? Seriously?

 

 

TL:DR recap

"Fluff" is an arbitrary way to judge an army list and usually varies from person to person. There is no set acceptable fluff rule. Those that do put their fluff rules down usually find it makes as little sense as the basic codex they are complaining about in the first place.

[Stormbrow II]

@stinkenheim: A compromise - if you keep typing without caps I'll not complain but I get to call you Stinky. Fair? :cuss

 

All that aside, I have issues with people who judge others based on "fluff" because it is usually an arbitrary process. They just don't "feel" like your list is acceptable. I prefer logic. I start with the codex rules because they are spelled out. People who argue fluff usually can't explain why.

@TiguriusX: You sir, are made of win.

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that sentence alone. Using fluff is too subjective as almost anything can be justified (read: spun) by referencing even a single sentence in almost any title. Its something I've found very unfair when I see how Sports scores are awarded in US tourneys.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

You have to balance fluff with practicality, if you have a fluffy army that get's it's arse kicked all the time you will not have too much fun.

 

I tend to do spam for units, my Grey Hunter packs are identical, but my Wolf Guard are fluffy.

 

In the end, do what feels right.

[stinkenheim]

@stinkenheim: A compromise - if you keep typing without caps I'll not complain but I get to call you Stinky. Fair? :rolleyes:

 

i've been called far, far worse my friend :rolleyes:

[commander alexander]

@stinkenheim: A compromise - if you keep typing without caps I'll not complain but I get to call you Stinky. Fair? ;)

 

I thought I smelled a troll in here :).

 

Also, I just noticed this, but when did the Grey Mage become a mod? Last time I was on here he was just another frater; one of the few to troll the apocalypse data faxes forum, if I'm correct :P ? Regardless, congratulations.

[Grey Mage]

@stinkenheim: A compromise - if you keep typing without caps I'll not complain but I get to call you Stinky. Fair? :)

 

I thought I smelled a troll in here :jaw:.

 

Also, I just noticed this, but when did the Grey Mage become a mod? Last time I was on here he was just another frater; one of the few to troll the apocalypse data faxes forum, if I'm correct :) ? Regardless, congratulations.

Thanks, it was about a week and a half ago, but im the OR mod not the SW mod... *shrugs*.

 

Anyways, @TiguriusX: Of course there is no acceptable fluff rule, if there was it would be fluff... it would be a rule.

 

That doesnt mean that I wont shake my head at a salamanders force thats got 6 landspeeders in it.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

The only time you should feel unwolfy is when the fire of battle no longer stirs a howl from deep within your chest, when casting down traitors, heretics and xenos becomes a chore, not a chance to test oneself upon the field of battle. You are no longer a wolf when you have no desire to hear the sagas of your brothers over a Fenrisian ale.

 

Only once these omens have occurred should you feel unlike a wolf, and then I suggest you seek out your local Wolf Priest.

 

For the Company, the Sixth Legion, for Russ and the Allfather!

And this is one of countless reasons why the Long Fangs amongst us are so cherished,their Wisdom is worth its weight in gold and yet allways freely given.