question about coherency and IC

[Jerre]

I don't know if this is the right forum to ask this question, but it came up with a Blood Angels battle, so here it goes ...

 

In a battle against Sisters of Battle earlier this evening, my 6 DC and reclusiarch (who was joined with the DC unit) consolidated in the open after winning combat. In the following SoB shooting phase, I lost 3 of the DC. This left the rest of the DC in coherency but the reclusiarch was more than 2 inches away from the DC. In my next movement phase I wanted to disengage the reclusiarch from the DC so I could assault two different SoB units (we were playing capture and control and I wanted to slow them down as they were heading for my objective to contest).

 

My opponent and another experienced player ruled that since the unit (DC + reclusiarch) was not in coherency at the start of my movement phase, they had to move so that they were in coherency at the end of their move. They ruled that this coherency rule had priority above the IC movement rules where you can leave the unit by breaking coherency during the movement. I thought this rather silly but found no immediate rule to argue their logic. I moved all models (DC + reclusiarch) towards the closest visible unit (rage rule) and back into coherency at the end of their movement. This lost me however precious inches of movement since my reclusiarch was closer to another unit but farther away from the unit the DC had to move towards.

 

Can someone confirm that we played it correctly? Or show me a rule that shows I could break the reclusiarch from the DC?

 

Thanks in advance !

[Leonaides]

Why did you take out DC that would have kept the chaplain in coherency? Would have avoided the problem entirely...

[JamesI]

In the movement phase, the IC can just leave the squad. Their ruling makes no sense.

[Jerre]

Why did you take out DC that would have kept the chaplain in coherency? Would have avoided the problem entirely...

 

It was the first time this rule came up, so I was unaware of the consequences. Since I had also PW DC, I had to use wound allocation. After that, the unit had a gap between the DC and the reclusiarch.

[Jerre]

In the movement phase, the IC can just leave the squad. Their ruling makes no sense.

 

The IC rules state that an IC has to follow the coherency rules. And the coherency rules state that you need to move into coherence. If I moved the reclusiarch out of the unit, it was no longer in coherency, which they said was required. It really comes down in which order you have to apply these rules.

[Demoulius]

this ruling is poo, allow me to present the result of 5 seconds of searching:

 

page 48. 3 point of the heading "independent character joining & leaving units"

 

"an independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

 

you were right, they were wrong. fact that people are "experienced players" means diddly when they cant read the wording right (or misinterprit it, not saying that what they did was intentional) no matter how sure an opponent is of his case, if your not; look it up. ive had SOOOOOO many people tell me x is how it is and they are dead sure only to take a peak in the BRB for 5 seconds and to prove them wrong ;) ;)

 

stuff can happen but dont let your opponents force something on you, no matter how sure they are ;)

 

-edit-

oh right no cussing, sorry guys >< fixxed it

[shatter]

ICs are only joined to units if within 2" at the end of your movement phase. They're your independent characters, not the unit's.

 

In his turn, it was still attached but not in coherency.

 

Ergo, the DC unit was in coherency (in your movement phase) and the chappie's coherency constraints were immaterial until the end of your movement phase.

 

There are no rules stating the Independent Character ruleset does anything else but lock a character to the unit at the end of the movement phase until the beginning of your next movement phase.

 

pg 12, unit coherency

"models must be moved in such a way as to restore coherency"

 

As moving the IC separately from the DC squad is permitted by IC movement rules in your move phase, moving the IC 0" achieved coherency for the DC unit. 'Moving in such a way' is nice and broad.

 

Ergo, by default it is as above: chappie was not in coherency and therefore not attached at the start of your move phase... so what. ICs can leave as it's a valid form of movement for them.

[Vodunius]

It was certainly a dickish instance of rules lawyering and certainly not something I would do but by the RAW I think they were correct:

You join the unit by moving into coherency with it.

 

Nothing in the RAW says being part of the unit simply evaporates at the start of the turn, you leave the unit by moving out of coherency with it during the movement phase.

 

You can't take something out of a box without it being in the box to begin with, likewise you can't move out of something without being in it. Ergo you cannot move out of coherency without first moving back into coherency.

[JamesI]

I'm going to bounce this to official rules as it is not really a BA specific question.

 

My opinion, a character can leave a unit by ending his movement out of 2 inches. I see nothing that forces him to waste a turn moving back into coherency before he can be allowed to leave.

[shatter]

It was certainly a dickish instance of rules lawyering and certainly not something I would do but by the RAW I think they were correct:

You join the unit by moving into coherency with it.

 

Nothing in the RAW says being part of the unit simply evaporates at the start of the turn, you leave the unit by moving out of coherency with it during the movement phase.

 

You can't take something out of a box without it being in the box to begin with, likewise you can't move out of something without being in it. Ergo you cannot move out of coherency without first moving back into coherency.

 

I don't agree. Page 12 doesn't state that. Only that coherency must be restored during the movement phase. It doesn't specify how, give clauses or limits, only that the result must satisfy unit cohesion rules in result.

 

The DC unit was never out of coherency with itself.

The IC was... but that's okay as IC rules give independent movement in the move phase.

 

Under IC movement, the only moment of 'lock' is at the end of the move. Ergo, they're 'unlocked' at the start else none of the other parts of the set (leaving a unit) are ever possible. eg, DC goes one way, joined IC another.

 

The two states exist without obvious conflict in my opinion.

[Descendant of Dante]

Until this ruling is faq'ed.

Just move the remaining members of the squad to the IC, then have him leave the unit solo.

[Jerre]

It was certainly a dickish instance of rules lawyering and certainly not something I would do but by the RAW I think they were correct:

You join the unit by moving into coherency with it.

 

Although we are playing in a competion, it's all very friendly and we had already lost some time looking up some rules so I just went with their ruling.

 

Nothing in the RAW says being part of the unit simply evaporates at the start of the turn, you leave the unit by moving out of coherency with it during the movement phase.

 

You can't take something out of a box without it being in the box to begin with, likewise you can't move out of something without being in it. Ergo you cannot move out of coherency without first moving back into coherency.

 

This was their main point. The BRB states (p48) that an IC, while part of a unit, must obey the usual coherency rules. And these coherency rules state that you had to move back into coherency. But the next paragraph of p48 states that an IC can leave a unit by moving out of coherency in the movement phase.

 

The unit coherency rule (p12) states in the first paragraph that a unit must be in coherency after moving. The second paragraph states that if it loses coherency, it must move to restore coherency.

 

If you follow the other players ruling, my IC was unable to leave the unit during that movemement phase, which I thought was ridicilous.

 

After reading the rules again and everyones responses so far, I believe the unit coherency should have just been checked at the end of the movement phase and if my IC moved out of the unit, that would have been fine.

[Jerre]

Until this ruling is faq'ed.

Just move the remaining members of the squad to the IC, then have him leave the unit solo.

 

That was one possibility but for me, in that battle, it was more important to move the DC than the reclusiarch. So I moved the reclusiarch towards (and beyond) the DC at max speed. And then moved the DC beyond the reclusiarch at the maximum without losing unit coherency.

[Obliterator]

OK, since I'm the dick that caused this discussion, I'll throw in my arguments for completeness' sake (although Jerre already did a mighty nice job so far).

• BBB p.12 (unit coherency) - during the course of the game, it's possible a unit will get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it takes casualties. If this happens, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency in their next movement phase.
  
• BBB p.48 (independent characters joining & leaving units) - while an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules.
  
• BBB p.48(independent characters joining & leaving units) - an independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.
  
• BBB p.48(independent characters joining & leaving units) - an independent character may not join or leave a unit during the shooting and assault phases
  
• BBB p.49(Shooting at independent characters) - independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets.
  

For me, the key to this discussion was the part stating that for an IC to leave the unit it joined, it needs to move out of coherency during the movement phase. How can he move out of coherency if he wasn't in coherency in the first place? The 'move' out of coherency occured during the shooting phase, so in order to leave, the IC needs to be in coherency in the movement phase to allow the IC to leave.

 

This leaves for 3 options in the Movement phase:

• the IC and the unit move back into unit coherency, and continue as 1 unit. The IC leaves the unit in the next Movement phase. -> legal
  
• the unit moves to the IC, restoring coherency. Then the IC leaves the unit in that same Movement phase, leaving the IC alone and the unit alone. -> legal (I'll gladly admit I was wrong about that one, Jerre).
  
• the IC and unit move away from each other. -> illegal IMHO, since unit coherency was never restored, so the IC couldn't leave the unit.
  

 

So in order to use your Reclusiarch and Death Company to assault both my Canonness and Battle Sisters, you could've only use option 2, provided you could move far enough after the regrouping to reach both units.

 

All in all, I'm glad this didn't change the outcome of the battle too much, I still got my behind handed to me by a better opponent in a fun battle :devil: .

[Turel]

I agree with Obliterator.

 

Seemingly everyone arguing against this is stating that and independent character can freely move in and out of a squad. That's correct, but in this case the character has not of his own volition moved out of the squad. Rather, it has been forced out of the squad due to unavoidable wound allocation. This has left the IC out of coherency and thus the coherency rule takes precedence IMO.

 

"an independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." - This simply was not the case.

 

 

- Turel.

[shatter]

Independent characters are independent of units unless they and the unit end their collective move phase within 2". That's the important bit.

 

There's no rule stating otherwise... unless one wants to chime in with bikes!

 

All situations involving the greater unit and it's constraints are specific and before or beyond this phase with the exception of coherency or a resulting lack of it. Coherency rules do not suspend regular IC movement. It simply doesn't. It does specify a requirement to keep your units coherent post 'move in such a way' so that one may move onto the next unit. IC movement is not at odds with this!

 

 

I can see why people feel that this is not the case, but I would try to remind them that coherency rules are to keep the players models together and manageable, not burden him/her with rules for the sake of rules... but I'd probably sound like a twat if I did.

[Duke Corwin]

"Captain where are you"

 

"I am with the second tactical squad"

 

"Enemy breach on the left flank we need your help immediately"

 

"Sorry, I am out of coherency with second squad. Once I move back into coherency with them, then I can leave second squad and come to you"

 

"????????"

 

 

:)

 

WH40K rules ALWAYS make sense. :D

[thade]

It works like this. At the end of your Movement phase, any of your ICs that are within 2" of one of your units is auto-magically a member of that unit. If he/she's within 2" of two different units, you must declare at the end of the movement phase which unit the IC is attached to.

 

At the start of the movement phase, the IC is under no obligation to retain coherency ever; members of the unit(s) are though. So, in your scenario, when you move everybody into coherency again, you just move the IC wherever you want...and bam, out of coherency. That's fine, under the rules.

 

Some of the confusion here I think stems from a few of you maintaining that the base coherency rules supersede the IC rules, but that is not the case; it is the other way around: the IC rules supersede all rules that precede in the book insofar as the IC and its behavior. So, we know how units must behave with regards to coherency (it's in the Movement chapter) and we know how ICs much behave with regards to coherency (it's in the Character chapter). Were it the case that the IC needed to maintain coherency with a unit it was already a part of at the start of the phase, it would be mentioned in the IC section as an exception.

 

Hope this helps.

[Jerre]

Some of the confusion here I think stems from a few of you maintaining that the base coherency rules supersede the IC rules, but that is not the case; it is the other way around: the IC rules supersede all rules that precede in the book insofar as the IC and its behavior. So, we know how units must behave with regards to coherency (it's in the Movement chapter) and we know how ICs much behave with regards to coherency (it's in the Character chapter). Were it the case that the IC needed to maintain coherency with a unit it was already a part of at the start of the phase, it would be mentioned in the IC section as an exception.

 

But the IC section states that the IC has to follow the coherency rules. Hence the disagreement.

[Grey Mage]

I would say, that the chaplain would be fine to continue moving on his own, because of this:

brb pg. 48, right hand column, bullet 3

An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

 

As soon as he moves in any direction hes out of coherency, and thus his own unit again. RAW yes, he has to move towards them, but once you move him even 1/64" towards the unit hes moved and is out of coherency, allowing you to then move him in any direction you like.

[JamesI]

Quick question. By forcing either the DC to move back to the Reclusiarch or to wait for the reclusiarch to catch up, isn't the DC's Rage rule violated?

 

Allowing the IC to leave on his own violates no rules. Forcing the DC to wait or move back violates rage.

[Obliterator]

Quick question. By forcing either the DC to move back to the Reclusiarch or to wait for the reclusiarch to catch up, isn't the DC's Rage rule violated?

 

Allowing the IC to leave on his own violates no rules. Forcing the DC to wait or move back violates rage.

Good point, I agree that the DC isn't allowed to fall back because of their 'rage' special rule. So the Reclusiarch needs to move to them in order to be able to leave the unit. So DC stays put, IC moves into coherency with them, and then moves right out of coherency to leave the unit, and then the DC move towards the nearest visible target.

 

I would say, that the chaplain would be fine to continue moving on his own, because of this:

brb pg. 48, right hand column, bullet 3

An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

The trouble with this setup was that the IC didn't leave the unit in the movement phase, as his unit was shot clean out of his comfort zone in the opponent's shooting phase. If he was in coherency in his movement phase then yes, he would have no problems leaving the DC unit.

 

As soon as he moves in any direction hes out of coherency, and thus his own unit again. RAW yes, he has to move towards them, but once you move him even 1/64" towards the unit hes moved and is out of coherency, allowing you to then move him in any direction you like.

He needs to move out of coherency, not move and be out of coherency. The first statement means he starts from coherency, the latter doesn't. As far as I can read into the BBB: an IC joining a unit is part of that unit, a unit needs to stay in coherency or refind it ASAP, an IC can leave the unit in it's own movement phase by moving out of coherency (so this assumes he was in coherency to start with).