Chaplain or Librarian?

[Brother Drakk]

I'm currently using a chaplain to lead a 6 man assault squad, and i was planning to get a librarian lead a separate bike squad. I've instead decided to use a captain to lead the bike squad, since that way, they'll count as a troop choice. This leaves me with choosing between a librarian to lead my assault squad, or keep the chaplain to lead them.

 

I really want to have a librarian on the field to take advantage of a few psychic powers and the psychic hood, but i'm not sure if it's worth trading for rerolling hits on the charge and being fearless. They're the same point cost, even with jump packs, so i was hoping someone could nudge me in the right direction?

 

For those who aren't big fans of assault squads, i've been sceptical before, but after having several games with them on the field, i'm quite happy with their performance and intend to keep them. And just in case, the assault squad the HQ will lead is 6 man strong, with a powerfist and flamer

 

Thanks in advance

[Adam_R]

Its all about how the HQ fits within the context of your army.

 

Whats your army list?

 

Whats your play style?

 

Whos your main enemy?

 

Personally i try and stick with one HQ since 230 pts+ is alot for a couple of models in a sub-2000pt games.

Is having bikers as troops that important?

 

Perhaps a Biker Libby could be fun... get a hood, a fast S10 Pieplate, T5 and access to some interesting powers.

 

But ultimately we need more input to help :D

[Gaz1858]

Ideally a Libbie should be upgraded to an Epistolary. If you dont have the points for this id say the Chaplian is better. He will come with an Inv that the libbie wont. And the re-rolls for hits is very very useful! Probably moreso than what benefits a libbie would give you.

[Brother Drakk]

My 1.5k army (listed briefly) is as follows:

 

Chappie/libby leading 6 man assault squad with powerfist and flamer

 

Captain leading 5 man bike squad with 2 melta guns, powerfist and 1 MM attack bike

 

10 man tact squad with rhino/razorback, ML, meltagun, powerfist

 

5 man scout squad with bolters and hvy bolter

 

Land speeder Typhoon with HB

 

Land speeder Tornado with HF and MM

 

Predator with AC and HBs

 

Predator with AC and LCs

 

Vindicator with seige shield

 

I think that comes up to 1.5k. But as you can see, if i don't have bikes as troop choices, i only have 15 models that can claim objectives, which is pretty bad for that size of an army. Play style's not really defined, mostly mobile firebase with a fair bit of short range punch.

 

Enemy can vary a fair bit, and i'm not much for one to alter a list based on who i'm versing. So it'll have to be all rounder

 

I think a libby can still be quite useful without the Epistolary upgrade, especially when i get to choose between 2 powers. I can't think of a lot of situations where i'd really be forced to use 2 powers for full effect. Unless using your psychic hood counts as using a psychic power?

[Jackelope King]

Chaplains are bad. Sorry. The only assault-happy units Marines can get are killy enough without a Chaplain, and really tend to suffer when you force them to be Fearless and start suffering from No Retreat! wounds. And bumping up the number of S4 non-power-weapon attacks that hit your enemy by 50% in the small squads that Marines field... yeah, sorry. Not worth it.

 

In an all-comers list, it's almost always better to take a Librarian. Even naked, they provide psychic defenses to your army, very useful powers (null zone is almost always one of the default powers I pick, then either Avenger or Vortex of Doom). They do not need the Epistolary upgrade, unless you're really dying to use some of the weaker psychic powers which all but require it (Might of Ancients, for instance, might as well require the Epistolary upgrade, for all the good it'll do you without being able to use your Force Weapon).

[Adam_R]

Looks like a fun list, while you started the thread wondering as to which HQ for the assault squad....i would suggest that you drop the assault squad and HQ because its costing you around 260pts and thats Land Raider country.

 

With all this armour its seems like a fast armoured list with the emphasis on Dakka. The Captain and squad providing a nice CC counter punch (+AT)

 

As you noted you really need some more scoring troops, and i think there some areas for adjustment in this list.

 

Drop the Scouts - 85 pts

Drop Chappie and Ass squad - 260ish

Drop Shield from Vindi - 15 pts

 

Total: Around 360 pts

 

I think you have enough heavy AT in the 2 Preds, Bike squad + 3 meltas and Vindi so i suggest:

 

FA:

Upgrade the Land Speeders to Typoons= 80pts more

Decent against all inf, light and medium armour, long range - fits in with the Dakka theme

 

Troops Options:

Tac Squad- Flame, ML Rhino = 205

 

or

 

8 SM Bike Squad + 2 Plas= 245

(Biker heavy lists will always suffer from the low body count)

 

= 285

 

Still around 70 points to play with and id love to see another Vindicator since 2 are just so much Win. Failing that you could really pimp out your captain...

 

Just throwing the ideas out there as to what else you could spend that (260ish points on) depending on funds and models available ofcourse :D

[Brother Drakk]

Thanks for the reply Adam_R. Some awesome advice there and much appreciated.

 

I'm yet to decide whether or not to drop the assault squad. They've been doing quite well but i see they can be traded for something that might be more worthwhile, like the bike squad you suggested.

 

I intend on keeping the scouts though, since it's an additional scoring squad and the heavy bolter absolutely shines with hellfire round (hellooooo plague marines). And they're cheap too

 

I thought siege shields on vindi's were almost default. I guess not?

 

One of the landspeeder is already typhoon, upgrading the tornado will only cost an extra 20 points

 

I'm leaning more towards the bike squad suggestion than the tact squad, should i drop the assault squad, since it's another scoring unit.

 

Shame... i really wanted to see how a libby did on table top. And starting to wonder if this belongs in the army list section. But it did legitimately start as a tactical question right?

[kaiserstole20]

I think jump pack chaplains are excellent solo HQ choices at 1000 points or fewer. At that point level an assault squad can become a real terror.

 

At than 1000 points, having a a Librarian becomes more critical. If you are going to take 2 HQ choices, definitely a librarian - they are better army support characters by far.

[DerekLee688]

A Chaplin is better for fuller squads and its ultimate use is still questionable. However, a Librarian can add extra firepower, protection, or hinderance to the opposition. You can give him a jump pack and avenger template, or bike with vortex of doom.

 

If my vindi isn't sandwiched between a dread and Land Raider, then it has a siege shield and is going for that free cover save you git for plowing into terrain without taking that dangerous terrain test.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm currently fielding a standard Librarian with a jump pack alongside my 10-man Assault Squad. The squad is armed with apowerfist and two flamers, and the Libby has Avenger and Null Zone. The general plan is to advance (or deepstrike) and apply templates en-masse. Two standard flamers and the S5, AP3 Avenger template can wreck anything without a 2+ save.

I also have the option to combat squad the unit on arrivel if I feel the drop zone is too small to safely land my Marines. Ten is a big footprint.

 

For a squad like this, a Chaplain is really a waste. I have enough bodies to get downfield without too much worry of breaking from a Morale test (unless I catch an AP3 pie plate on the way in), and if I deepstrike the unit, the chaplain adds a whole one bolt pistol shot the the force. Blech.

 

Note that the only time I deepstrike a unit like this is if the center of the board is very very open, and I'm sure to catch hell if I try to cross it. I typically target backfield units like Lootaz, Devvies, or small rearguard Troops choices.

 

Now, for YOUR guys, who are a much-smaller 6-man unit, the Chaplain does give them Fearless, which is great for getting the squad to your desired target without fear of running away. I have this awful luck with my fast-mover units. They tend to fail the first Morale test they're required to take, and run 3d6" off the board in Turn Two. Argh!

[mowglie]

Alas, I think all our HQs kind of suck. I'd not take one if I could ^^

 

A Chaplain is a double-edged sword. He massively increases the assault-killiness of the unit he is attached to, and comes with an invuln save as standard. However, fearless cuts both ways.

 

Do you need your assault unit to be killier? If so, the chaplain is a good choice.

 

The Librarian is the more flexible choice, and I would argue the default one. He is effective without upgrades, and comes (typically) with a S5/AP3 template, and the option to have your opponents reroll invulns. The most important aspect of the librarian, though, is probably his hood. Some armies (bikes) are utterly reliant on it as a last line of defence against e.g. dual lash.

 

Try both, of course, but if you're not sure my advice is to go with the librarian. Also, given your're already taking a bike captain I'd say go with neither! :sweat:

[Ming]

Remeber the old days when a chaplain could be added to a company HQ...outside of the normal FOC. That would be his role, I think. I almost never field a chaplain.

 

Librarians are very good to have. And they can help you get your codexi through interlibrary loan...

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

I once made a fun list and made a full Pod spam list against a Guard player. Fun for me, nightmare for him. I had an Epistolary with Avenger and Vortex and he came from the sky alongside an Assault Squad. The Libby flamed up the Heavy Weapons teams sitting in cover, blew up a Basilisk and immobilsed a Russ, before Vortexing himself trying to bring the awesomeness on that Hellhound. Sure that sucked, but that Guard player focused lots of fire on him, like BS 3 Lascannons that granted 4+ cover saves with 10 meatbags to get through because he shot through my other Marines, although I admit that I was a bit too lucky :)

[Aron]

I prefere the libby because his powers can hurt your enemy (avenger, smite)

and he can give you a mesure of protection against those nasty ap3 weapons (psycic shield).

 

Oh and his force weapon can potentaly instant kill a enemy HQ or at least scare your enemy into not useing his HQs against the libbies squad.

 

And as many others already said the fearles rule of the chaplain is just bad when you lose comabat.

 

On the other hand re-rolling to hits on the first turn of comabat and 4+ invunerable save isn't to bad either.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Force Dome hardly gives any protection. Ask any Guard/ Tac Termie player and you'll get the same answer. But +1 on the rest :D

[Koremu]

Chaplains are the 'I'd rather not have a HQ, but this one is the cheapest' option. They come with a built-in Power Weapon and an Invuln Save, which none of the other ICs have as standard.

[ShinyRhino]

I used my Librarian with Jump Pack, Avenger, and Null Zone in a five-round tournament this past week (Boston Brawl).

He was alright. I was largely using the 10-man Assault Squad we was with (dual-flamers, powerfist) as a shock-bomb, deepstriking them in and dropping flamer and Avenger templates on vulnerable squads.

They were wiped out by a mishap (scattered into a close combat, oops!) once, when they would have made the biggest impact. The rest of the time, they were just "meh."

I think this is more a side-effect of Assault Squads, than Librarians. People aren't fond of the possibility of an Avenger template dropping out of the sky into their backfield squads.

I never once used Null Zone, mostly because of the lack of non-PA armies at the event. I didn't face anyone with Terminators.

My psychic hood worked two out of three times I rolled for it against a Chaos list with Warptime and Lash. But then the librarian died, and I was Lashed to death.

 

In the future, I think I'll pare the Assault Squad down to 5 men, dual flamers and powerfist to make it a cheaper shock-bomb. 10 men is nice for weathering return fire, but just too points heavy.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Assault Squads could take one Plasma Pistol/ Flamer for every five squad members. So no five man squads with dual Flamers. I would run them with Remove Jump Packs in a Pod. If that is your only pod, it's sure to come first turn and mishaps would be much much less likely to happen.

[ShinyRhino]

Assault Squads could take one Plasma Pistol/ Flamer for every five squad members. So no five man squads with dual Flamers. I would run them with Remove Jump Packs in a Pod. If that is your only pod, it's sure to come first turn and mishaps would be much much less likely to happen.

 

Ah, I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder.

I'llprobably just chop the entire squad out anyways, since they're VERY underhwelming, though I haven't managed to play the dual-flamer 10-man at my LGS yet, due to 'Ardf Boyz interrupting the normal monthly tournaments.

[Captain Idaho]

I like Librarians with shooty units, using Avenger to supplement a Tactical squad or Sternguard's killing power. This also doubles up on the unit's flexibility, as an example, a Sternguard squad with 2x melta guns can still punish infantry with that AP3 flamer template and their bolters, and the 2 melta shots plus either machine curse or charging in with S6 2D6 CC attacks. Lastly the Librarian makes the squad reasonably powerful in assaults.

 

Another fun use of Librarian's is they create another serious threat out of a unit that might just be a mundane unit under normal circumstances. Tactical squads are often considered average yet put a Librarian in there and you have a unit that has useful firepower and decent assault capacity.

 

Putting them in a dedicated assault squad is less than efficient generally. Can work of course, especially with Epistolary and Quickening and Might powers, but ultimately there are cheaper options in assault.

 

Chaplains are the obvious reverse of this. The definitely boost a charging unit and are good enough characters to stand their own in assaults against opposing infantry (not assault specialists neccessarily). They are wasted in most shooting units as they a diametrically opposed to this use in their application.

 

So it is simply a case of looking at your army and deciding what you want it to do and what needs the most boost. If your Assault squad is struggling to fight on equal terms with infantry then a Chaplain is the way to go.

[Velkairiwyth]

My 2C on the topic of Librarian or Chaplain in an army....

 

I would side with librarian. A counter to enemy psykers - the invaluable Null zone, and AP1/2/3 shooty options are very valuable.

 

If I need a cheep HQ - they fit in nicely in a combat squad in a razorback. If I have assault termies in a land-raider - I like to throw him in with them with Termi armour and SS (Null zone bubble, then a bit of extra support in the melee - and the storm shield has saved my ass from those painful invul reroll Shadows of the warp wounds.)

 

I like chaplains... I think the models look great... But their stat line is a bit sub-par for what they bring. The only time I bring a chaplain is when I decide to throw Cassius on the table. With T6 he is a veritable monstrous creature (a 2 wound mephiston with invulnerable save?) albheit not packing very much punch.

 

I either chuck him in with terminators (rerolls on the charge = nommy!) or sternguard (extra hellfire shots till the last moment, then charging they get to reroll misses aswell :D )

 

But 90% of the time - Librarian for me. Simply for the fact it is a counter measure that against certain armies is sorely needed. (countering Eldar/nid powers, or null zoning the Hammernators/HQs of trechorous marines!)

[Brother Drakk]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

 

I think i'll use the chaplain for small point games (up to 1k)

 

Anything beyond that i'll probably field a libby with a combat squadding tact in a razorback

[Captain Idaho]

Anything beyond that i'll probably field a libby with a combat squadding tact in a razorback

 

Yeah a Librarian with a 5 man squad is very cost effective and are reasonably powerful.