How do you kill IG (Imperial Gaurd)

[Giga]

Most (intelligent) IG players shouldn't be running their russes in squadrons, it leaves them entirely too vulnerable to any sort of CC or melta attacks, personally I haven't seen it done in many months. The 5E vehicle squadron rules are quite frankly terrible, and horrifically awkward, hence why you don't see anything but artillery units and cheap stuff like Hydras typically squadroned.

As I said, most IG armies nowadays are vets in chimeras with a couple support units thrown in, and usually one or two vendettas. However, occasionally players will field squadrons of leman russes and the like. I agree that these aren't the most tactically valid option, but hey, people still like to field it every now and then. :P

I find that the TH/SS terminators are not a great unit to deal with IG, simply because anything they can do other units can do, and do more flexibly, without requiring the Land Raider.

This is true, of course. TH/SS termies are designed to kill hard stuff, so by default they aren't very effective against a horde army without MCs and/or deathstar units.

 

However, when discussing tactics I always look at it from the perspective of an all-comers list. Chances are, my all-comers lists are going to have a LR with th/ss termies in them (and so will many marine armies out there), hence I always look for the best way to utilize them. If I was tailoring a list specifically to kill IG, then I almost certainly wouldn't use termies of any kind and would instead opt for things like assault marines.

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of the 50 men IG blob, I'm yet to find a situation where I absolutely have to kill them to win. In KP missions they're not worth the bother (I'd much rather run around killing chimeras and squishy veteran units inside), and in objectives missions they're just too slow to get to faraway objectives, and the objectives are usually too far away from each other to allow them to contest multiple objectives.

 

If, however, I really wanted to kill them, and they had a bunch of power weapons and whatnot, I'd most likely do it the way I deal with any other huge horde unit - by focus firing it with multiple anti-infantry units and then maybe assaulting. That means I'd likely hit it with one or two tac squads (normally with flamer and combiflamer) AND blast it with a couple heavy flamers from a mm/hf speeder squadron. With the blob being so huge and slow, it'd generally be easy to catch a whole lot of models under the flamer templates, and once you took out half or more of the blob, it's really not dangerous any more and can be killed in the following turn or in a follow-up assault.

[mowglie]

They can kill a 30 strong blob squad in a couple assault phases, remembering they can shoot before they charge.

 

They probably can't. They'll do 15 wounds on the assault, take two casualties in return, and then struggle to finish the blob off. Their problem is that there are only 6 of them, so each casualty the IG player deals seriously compromises your ability to wound him. On the other hand, you need to kill off like 27 guys before you start on his power weapons.

 

I haven't mathed it in detail, but it'll probably go like:- you do 15 they do 2, you do 8 they do 2, you do 4 they do 2, and now your CM has 2 wounds left facing off against four power weapons. It might go a bit better than that, but given that your unit costs like 60% more than theirs I really wouldn't call that "good". Nor would I call it "overkill".

 

You're welcome to consider shooting before assault if you like, but bear in mind that the IG player can shoot you too (particularly since you can't assault out of your transport). His 27 rapidfiring lasguns hurt you a lot more than your 6 bolt pistols hurt him.

 

Oh, I dispute IG players can just point and destroy a unit so easily. Cover, target priority and casualities seldom makes it easy for anyone, let alone BS3.

 

They can point and destroy your unit far easier than you can control where and when your footsloggers who can't assault out of their transport get to enter CC.

 

Often, those AP2 weapons you are using to destroy my 6 models represent a large proportion of the army's longer range anti-transport capacity.

 

For the price of your HG+CM+Razorback (435 points?) you can get two Medusas and two Hydras.

[Fatuous]

Few points.

 

Blob commissars can't take PFs and no self respecting guard player will be using AP2 ordinance weaponry to shoot rhinos, they save them for terminators, artificer armour and power armour or land raiders. That is what autocannon and multi lazers are for, and they are likely to be packing alot of them in HW squads, regular inf squads and on each and every chimera they bring with them. An all comers guard list, can reliably expect to be knocking down up to 3 transports a turn, then get in to FRF SRF range.

 

A 55 man blob with 10 PWs is going to be around 500 points, and is not going anywhere in CC unless against an ork mob or maxed out striking scorpion squad or similar, u need the mass of attacks, not power weapons (of cause they wont hurt). Use flamers to whittle down the numbers before you go anywhere near it.

 

And a blob squad is not slow! It is not slower than any infantry unit (in fact is slightly quicker due to orders), and it isn't hard for them to keep up with transports. Look at the units as a whole. Each blob will have a command squad, which every turn can be 'move move moving' that blob, which in addition can be tooled up cheaply to deal with rhinos. 20 points 4 grenade launchers, will not struggle to take down a rhino.

 

Russ squadrons...... now I personnally am not a fan, but I know players who are. Yes they are slightly more vulnerable, but they also have masses advantages. Not blocking each others LOS is VERY important for non all vet guard armies, and no stunned or shaken results goes a long way with AR14. But why do they really take them? To pack in more heavy support, that is the only reason they'll be doing it. So you can expect a vanquisher on top of those russes, and maybe some artillery aswell, 3 griffins might not sound scary as they lack the AP, but they are very accurate, and cost 225 for 3 of them, that can soon start forcing alot of armour saves or even threatening your rhinos if you are totally meched up.

 

As a general rule of thumb, if you're facing guard lists I'd leave my fancy expensive toys at home, unless you are going for terminator over load and even then, more bodies is probably better.

 

Going on the HG with CM in a RB example above at 435. 1 company command squad packing 2 melta guns, 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol and power weapon on the officer, in a chimera is 175 odd points, throw in carapace, for about 200. leaves enough ponits left over for a 30 man blob with commissar and a platoon command squad. Enough to take the inital assault (and if they choose to loose the commi on purpose, they can fall back leaving you exposed to AP2 death, sure they might get run down, but if they don't they can be brought back in to the fight next turn).

 

But it is all about the cost of the units. a 435 point unit that can totally wipe out large squads, certainly it looks good. But for less than half the points, a guard player can be fielding a unit that can take out the transport from 36 inches away, manovure in to range, then use fire on my coordinates to force you to reroll any passed cover saves you might have rolled, from 5 plasma shots and 2 melta, all at BS 4.

 

Basically if you start going too far over 200 points on a unit, you are at serious risk of simply not having enough feet on the ground.

[Fatuous]

In principle I do agree, but it all depends what they have lurking near by that can counter assault.

 

A platoon command sqaud with commissar (ok, not that popular, but I've taken them in the past against marines) counter charging next turn, and they probably won't even need to worry about not being able to shoot. You won't be able to attack them and they are pretty likely to knock down your numbers without even taking any hits back, and can soon swing a combat, especially if you only have a combat squad in teh assualt.

 

But generally speaking, yes you are quite right. Try and be in CC so they can't target you with the russes, which are far more dangerous.

 

But guard can pack decent counter charge units, so worth noting what is near by. Platoon command sqauds can be a real suprise once you've taken the assualt on a blob. This is one of my fav tactics, even managed to kill Yariel couple of weeks back....

 

This is a dodgy scenario in my mind. let's say a 10-man tac assaults a Blob. Combat ensures, and the Blob stays put. All Marines that did not make base contact must now pile in to make base contact with as man IG models as possible, using the 6" move. Then the Blob must do the same. This should just about completely envelop the tac squad, preventing the CCS from assaulting the tacs next turn. There's no holding back the IG Blob to leave room for the CCS to get stuck in. If you assault a big old squad like an IG Blob, you should be fully surrounded after the turnis over. If not, someone skimped their movement, or the Blob was all strung out in a line to begin with.

 

I think we are talking about different sized blob squads. A full 55 guys one then yes you are spot on, but in that case there really is no need to counter attack, not til 1 or 2 turns later once the carnage starts to resolve.

 

In a 20 man man squad (from my example with Yariel), assuming an assault from 10 guys with a power weapon on the sarge. is22 attacks, prob about 12 wounds, causing maybe 9 deaths. 12 guys fighting back, might pull 3-4 wounds back, maybe 2 marines dead. 8 bvs 12, prob wont be a huge problem getting in to CC. And even if it is, then I can wait till next turn, there will prob still be enough guys left to hold them in place, then the charge.

 

Guard do not have to combine, combining squads up to 50 guys is not a statergy in itself that many guard players use. It is an option that they can use, during deployment if they want to, and they will (or certainly should) combine squads differently on a game by game basis to max out their efficiency.

[Fatuous]

Double post :(

[mannstein]

I personally wouldn't waste AP2 weaponry on marines, be they honour guard or not, unless I had no other tough targets left to shoot at. I would use lasguns, lots and lots of lasguns. Remember what I pointed out earlier: the Guard play the system as well as if not better than any other army. The system says, more dice = win. My sole objective when dealing with a "tough" unit is to make you roll saves.

 

A lot of saves.

 

Enough saves that no matter how lucky you think you are, the law of averages comes up and bites you. To do that, I use multishot weapons, rapid firing infantry, and flamers. The most effective weapons for dealing with transports in the guard army are autocannons, and we get lots of them, followed by multilasers. Sure, there are lots of high-powered gizmos in the guard army, but they are relatively expensive, and often yeild unexpectedly bad results (ie they don't throw out enough dice..). On top of that, there are so few AV14 all round vehicles around, it simply isnt worth worrying about them beyond the inclusion of a bit of melta.

[Fatuous]

The only AP2 weaponry in my guard is a demolisher that targets warwagons, land raiders and terminators. Plamsa/melta in command squads for anything that justs has to die and can be linked with orders and melta/plasma vets with a demo charge for all out heavy infantry death.

 

Volume of fire is certainly effective, but cheap, disposable, mobile AP2 weaponry can crush a flank quite easily in 1 turn if possitioned right, and the possitioning is not hard once you throw in a valk or vendetta.

 

Marbo on his own, is enough of a threat to not pack in very expensive units. not many points for almost certain death to any one leaving a transport or DSing. He can pretty much pick his target, and is far too likely to cripple them.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know why people are so against AV11 Transports as an assault vehicle? Seriously, yes the thing can die easier than a Landraider, but with cover/Smoke Launchers, an army of additional choice targets (that I hide behind!) and a forgiving damage table, we can be all but certain that an assault unit get's at least a single move per game before being taken out. That is 12" in a single turn, followed in the next turn (if neccessary because the transport is taken out) I will have disembarked 2", can move 6" and charge another 6".

 

A single turns movement in a Rhino allows an assault unit the reach of 26"!

 

However, when discussing tactics I always look at it from the perspective of an all-comers list. Chances are, my all-comers lists are going to have a LR with th/ss termies in them (and so will many marine armies out there), hence I always look for the best way to utilize them. If I was tailoring a list specifically to kill IG, then I almost certainly wouldn't use termies of any kind and would instead opt for things like assault marines.

 

I agree.

 

I am not advocating taking HG to take down Blob squads either, rather stating their possible uses when I come up against an IG list in a GT type environment.

 

If I was to suggest a away to kill the Blob squad I would say just use a Thunderfire for a turn, then laugh!

[mowglie]

I don't know why people are so against AV11 Transports as an assault vehicle?

 

Because it dies easily, leaving your 395-pt unit stranded.

 

It's ok en masse (e.g. BA armies playing 4x 5-man RAS in Razorbacks) for several reasons, but any player worth his salt is going to recognise your HG's transport as a priority target and effortlessly neutralise 435pts of your army in his first shooting phase.

 

A single Rifleman Dred, a squadron of two Typhoons, a Hydra, or five lootas will immob-or-better a razorback from the front more often than not.

 

A single turns movement in a Rhino allows an assault unit the reach of 26"!

 

Not in one turn. Either you've got to disembark on the previous turn (leaving yourself open to a round of shooting), or you've got to stay parked in the transport (which is arguably worse). Either way you need to be basically right on top of your enemy to guarantee a charge next turn.

 

Assuming you're assaulting a regular infantry unit, your razorback needs an access point within 8" at the end of your movement phase the previous turn, or your squad needs to be on the ground within 6". Even then, if denying you a charge is really important, your opponent still has the option of running, stranding your assault.

[Captain Idaho]

Because it dies easily, leaving your 395-pt unit stranded.

 

It's ok en masse (e.g. BA armies playing 4x 5-man RAS in Razorbacks) for several reasons, but any player worth his salt is going to recognise your HG's transport as a priority target and effortlessly neutralise 435pts of your army in his first shooting phase.

 

A single Rifleman Dred, a squadron of two Typhoons, a Hydra, or five lootas will immob-or-better a razorback from the front more often than not.

 

And I contend that you can't just destroy the Rhino easily. If that was the case, then why bother taking Rhinos at all? I haven't played a game where my HG in a Razorback/Rhino hasn't managed to get at least 1 turns movement, even against an army that had 2 Rifleman Dreads.

 

Not in one turn. Either you've got to disembark on the previous turn (leaving yourself open to a round of shooting), or you've got to stay parked in the transport (which is arguably worse). Either way you need to be basically right on top of your enemy to guarantee a charge next turn.

 

Assuming you're assaulting a regular infantry unit, your razorback needs an access point within 8" at the end of your movement phase the previous turn, or your squad needs to be on the ground within 6". Even then, if denying you a charge is really important, your opponent still has the option of running, stranding your assault.

 

No, you need a single turns movement in the transport (12") and the following turn you can disembark 2" before the transport moves, move 6" and charge 6". That is 26" movement.

 

You need to get an access point (easily enough with side armour being the same as front) at the start of your turn within 14" to be able to charge that turn. Easy enough really.

[mowglie]

why bother taking Rhinos at all?

 

I can kill one. I can't kill six. That's target saturation.

 

However, unless you've hidden your HG in a corner 36+" away from my guys, I probably get to pick which one I kill.

 

(To be fair, though, you do mostly get at least one turn. I mean, you go first 50% of the time :lol:)

 

You need to get an access point (easily enough with side armour being the same as front) at the start of your turn within 14" to be able to charge that turn. Easy enough really.

 

Yes. You need an access point within 14" at the start of your turn to be able to charge that turn. Glad to see we at least agree on the simple stuff.

 

Now, given that I get a movement phase in-between, how close do you need your access point at the end of your previous turn?

[Captain Idaho]

But you can only move so far and I would imagine you are already operating near your table edge. And you won't be taking objectives by moving away from the assault force.

 

And if you move away you won't be shooting as effectively that turn, especially with infantry. Remember that the HG can assault all IG vehicles just as effectively as the infantry.

[H.C.118]

A quick thing on blob squads: Use Sternguard. At least I do. I've found that the best way to shatter a horde is a Sternguard unit with Combi Flamers and Heavy Flamers. I've killed a total of about 150 models or so in about 4 games with that unit. Just pod down, flame the nearest blob unit, and then your opponent will waste so much power in getting rid of that squad over the next turn that your transports can move up and unload the tactical squads. It's worked for me, even though it isn't efficient.

[mowglie]

But you can only move so far and I would imagine you are already operating near your table edge. And you won't be taking objectives by moving away from the assault force.

 

And if you move away you won't be shooting as effectively that turn, especially with infantry. Remember that the HG can assault all IG vehicles just as effectively as the infantry.

 

1) If I'm operating "near my table edge" your 26" bubble gets you nowhere near me, and I get at least two turns of shooting your transport before I even care about the contents. Even then, if you're at 14", I only need to move a couple of inches to prevent you assaulting me.

 

2) Sure, I won't be shooting as effectively, but your 395-pt unit won't be assaulting at all.

 

That's all I'll be saying on the subject here. I don't want to hijack the thread more than we already have. Feel free to start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

 

@OP:

 

There are two broad schools of thought. Pick one depending on your list, deployment, and whether you get first turn.

 

1) Take everything you have, get close, and hit hard.

 

Ball up your whole army at the front of your DZ, and get stuck in. IG will outshoot you, so get into assault asap, especially with individual 10-man squads. Don't overkill though, you want the IG squad to die in their turn, not yours. Deal with Leman Russ squadrons by assaulting them with your heavy assault specialists (gogo hammernators, they don't have a better target in this game). Deal with artillery by denying it targets (by keeping everything you have in assault as much as possible).

 

You'll need to open up their transports - not so much to kill the squads inside as to get into the safety of assault. If he drops a big blob, your rank-and-file are safer in CC with it than anywhere else on the board.

 

Closer is better as the IG player will risk hitting his own guys with pieplates (won't stop him firing, but it'll hurt him).

 

You need to punch through and silence his big guns. If you spend more than a turn in the open outside of assault you will lose.

 

2) Deploy everything in reserve and strike selectively.

 

First of all, the IG player is likely to be nerfing your reserve rolls - particularly in big games. Suck it up. It probably works to your advantage more than his.

 

Secondly, this only works with units that can make their presence felt the turn they arrive. It's no good with e.g. devastators, tri-las preds, etc. Speeders (all types, LSS/Typhoon/MM+HF) are your star players, but also the godhammer.

 

You probably want to Deepstrike or Outflank everything that can (except Typhoons!). Use his tanks as cover to force him out of position.

 

Drop MM/HF speeders, or outflank the LSS next to his artillery and silence it.

 

Godhammer comes on obscured and takes long-range potshots.

 

Mech tactical squads cower anywhere they can.

 

His Vendetta ought to be on the board before the majority of your force has even arrived, which helps you a lot. Roll on and pop it.

 

Deploying strung-out like this reduces the effectiveness of his pieplates (his best friend, your worst enemy). Once your advance elements have silenced his Medusa/Manticore/Hydra, you'll an overwhelming turn 4-5 roll-on (either for objectives, or for his guys).

 

The more mobile your army is the better. Particularly BA. Baal Preds can outflank and attack artillery, Vindicators can roll on 12" and still land their shot anywhere on 75% of the table.

[Giga]

An all comers guard list, can reliably expect to be knocking down up to 3 transports a turn, then get in to FRF SRF range.

Popping smoke, hiding front armor out of LoS so as to get 3+ cover saves, and generally maintaining some proper target saturation means that no, there's no way a standard 1500-1850 pts IG list is going to be popping 3 transports a turn unless the guard player is exceedingly lucky.

And a blob squad is not slow!

It's a massive footslogging unit. With all the 12"+ moving transports and speeders nowadays, it's easy to maneuver around the blob or to move into position to assault/fry it. That's the thing with dealing with the blob squad - pulling it into "open ground" and then hitting it with a whole lot of anti-infantry stuff. I like to hit it with the combined force of two mm/hf speeders and a tac squad with flamer and combiflamer.

 

Disembark the tac squad 1" from the blob, and move the speeders into a couple inches from the blob. Then proceed to hit the blob with dual heavy flamers (wounding on 2+ with no saves) and then with the tac squad. Even if the IG player removes the models closest to the tac squad, the blob is still so huge your flamer and combiflamer will wound a whole lot of models anyway. Arranging this situation can be tricky until you master it, but once you do you can effectively kill two thirds of the blob in a single shooting phase, rendering it ineffective for its tarpitting purposes because at that point they can already be slaughtered by pretty much anything in assault.

 

 

 

 

Also, mowglie speaks the truth!

[Fatuous]

An all comers guard list, can reliably expect to be knocking down up to 3 transports a turn, then get in to FRF SRF range.

Popping smoke, hiding front armor out of LoS so as to get 3+ cover saves, and generally maintaining some proper target saturation means that no, there's no way a standard 1500-1850 pts IG list is going to be popping 3 transports a turn unless the guard player is exceedingly lucky.

And a blob squad is not slow!

It's a massive footslogging unit. With all the 12"+ moving transports and speeders nowadays, it's easy to maneuver around the blob or to move into position to assault/fry it. That's the thing with dealing with the blob squad - pulling it into "open ground" and then hitting it with a whole lot of anti-infantry stuff. I like to hit it with the combined force of two mm/hf speeders and a tac squad with flamer and combiflamer.

 

Disembark the tac squad 1" from the blob, and move the speeders into a couple inches from the blob. Then proceed to hit the blob with dual heavy flamers (wounding on 2+ with no saves) and then with the tac squad. Even if the IG player removes the models closest to the tac squad, the blob is still so huge your flamer and combiflamer will wound a whole lot of models anyway. Arranging this situation can be tricky until you master it, but once you do you can effectively kill two thirds of the blob in a single shooting phase, rendering it ineffective for its tarpitting purposes because at that point they can already be slaughtered by pretty much anything in assault.

 

 

 

 

Also, mowglie speaks the truth!

 

That is certainly the way to kill large blobs, or any IG units. Flamers and heavy flamers are the way forwards. That is quite a lot of units to use to tackle one tho (altho it will certainly annhilate that units quite easily) but 1/3 of a blob squad, if it has a commissar is hardly ineffective, it's unlikely to run off. I still contest the notion that blobs are slow. Sure they are slower than fast transports and jump packs, I'm not saying they are fast, but they are no slower than a tac squad or any other infantry unit, in fact they are quicker due to Move move move increasing the odds significantly for running rolls.

 

And kraking open 3 transports a turn is actually rather easy for a guard player, even with smoke and 3+ cover saves. Due to 'Fire on my coordinates' forcing rerolls on any saved cover saves, or 'Bring it down' adding more hits. Getting a true LOS on side armour with sentinels, or just raining down fire on side armour with artillery.

 

I often face off against mech SOBs, which is probably the WORST opponent for a guard player to face, mobile and lots of flamer weapons. The only way to stand a chance is to take down the rhinos on turn 1 before they can get into position to fry you. The same applies to marines. I don't slant my force to particularly take down transports, but an all comers list will certainly have at least 1 HWS of 3 autocannon, some vets with ML and GLs and an Exterminator, add in some orders for the infantry units and they rarely fail to bag a transport each on turn 1, thats before the chimeras, artillery, GL maxed out command squads and what ever else start firing.

 

Autocannon = Dead rhino. and if there is one thing guard have access to, is lots of ACs.

[Giga]

That is quite a lot of units to use to tackle one tho

The blob costs ~500 points as you yourself have said. In 1750 pts that's almost one third of the IG player's entire army. The tac squad with fist, rhino, flamer, and combiflamer costs 240 pts. Two mm/hf speeders cost 140. So you're basically neutralizing a big slow 500 point unit with two much faster units that cost 380 pts. Points-wise, that's not a bad use of one's resources.

 

All of this, of course, is supposing that killing/decimating the blob is necessary to achieve victory in the long run. In most situations, the blob can simply be ignored in favor of killing other targets. This is especially true in kill points games, where killing those chimeras and squishy veteran squads inside is a far better way to win.

And kraking open 3 transports a turn is actually rather easy for a guard player, even with smoke and 3+ cover saves. Due to 'Fire on my coordinates' forcing rerolls on any saved cover saves, or 'Bring it down' adding more hits. Getting a true LOS on side armour with sentinels, or just raining down fire on side armour with artillery.

Been playing quite a bit against guard, and am yet to see them killing transports with so much efficiency unless they're being horribly lucky.

 

Also, them popping my rhinos means they're greatly ignoring things like turbo-boosting bikes, speeders, and the incoming LR. Either way, I rarely if ever find their firepower all that powerful that I'm unable to lay down the hammer at some point.

[mowglie]

Been playing quite a bit against guard, and am yet to see them killing transports with so much efficiency unless they're being horribly lucky.

 

Depends a lot on your metagame. The guard codex allows for some really lethal builds. It gets better as the game size gets bigger, but even in small games they should bring some serious pain.

 

What kind of firepower are your opponents bringing?

 

I'd expect 1,750 IG to have maybe two hydras, two medusas, two melta-vet or special weapon squads, ~3 infantry autocannons, and a Valkyrie or Vendetta (although it's probably in reserve at this point). That's on top of whatever incidental S6 stuff he has that could target your transports if it wants (e.g. grenade launchers, multi-lasers, both quite capable of taking out rhinos, and both available in large quantities to guard players)

 

Even without the aircraft and the melta (who have more important things to do), the hydras, artillery, and heavy weapons should open two transports more often than not.

 

They won't kill six though, and they'll almost certainly kill one, which was my point earlier.

[Fatuous]

I had commented on the 55 man blob previously, but I personnally never use them so keep posting using my own XP (I don't think they are an effective unit, 20 or 30 are my max combined units). Sry for an confusion there.

 

Using the 55 man blob as an example then yes, it is a cost effective way of tackling them. BUT, take down 2/3 of a 55 man blob, and there are a significant amount still left standing. 16+ guys left, still stubborn.

 

You are right tho that generally speaking you are better off ignoring large mobs like that in favour of other units, but it is mostly just a numbers game, as I don't know any seriosu guard players that use them in this way.

 

I can only comment on my own abilities to knock out transports, with the units I commonly take. I'm not a huge fan of mathammer, but a bit of number crunching....

 

3 ACs with Fire on my coordinates, 3 hits, 4 ups to glance. Even if only 1 penetrates and you pass a cover save, that has to be rerolled. Odds on that rhino's at least not moving next turn. Use bring it down instead.... ups hits to 4.5, 2 glance/penetrate, similar odds on getting a hit thru.

 

Exterminator (no pask, and ignore sponsons for movement). with rerolls on a twin linked H4 AC, 3 hits, 1.5 glancing/penetrating hits. plus the heavy bolter, which isn't a huge rhino killer, but can glance it.

 

I do often take pask which turns this in a transport killing beast (which is possibly an explanation for my high transport killing capacity), heavy 4 twin linked AC, plus 9 HBs, plus 3 heavy stubber, all at BS 4, all at +1 strength. Every single weapon can knock out a rhino, and anything in a squadron is going to get pasted

 

Vet squad ML and 3 GL with bring it down. Odds on all will hit with the rerolls. ML glances on a 3, GLs glance on a 5.

 

This is only 3 units worth of firepower, not even looking in to the heavy weapons in infantry squads, command squads, etc.....

 

Perhaps I have just been lucky, but it looks fairly even odds to get a glancing or penetrating hit on each transport fairly easily, even with out orders. Still leaving some artilery to fire on the LR, and hellhound to attack the bikes, etc........

 

If you havent been having any trouble against guard then well played :( But if you don't find IG 'fire power all that powerful', then I don't know what guard armies you've been playing against. FIREPOWER should be what a guard army is all about.

[Giga]

[edit]in reply to mowglie's post[/edit]

 

Mostly it's a very similar firepower that you're mentioning there, except they tend to go with basilisks and demolisher/standard leman russes instead of medusas and hydras. Some of them have more vets, others have more infantry. One guy likes to run dual colossus siege mortars, and these can be annoying but nothing too bad.

 

As I said, I rarely if ever find my army slaughtered before I can reach IG lines. Sometimes they might get uber lucky and I may fail a ton of coversaves and then I end up with most of my army immobilized/footslogging, and that sucks. That rarely happens, however, and I usually do get at least a good chunk of my strikeforce into their lines by turn 2.

 

It may be that I tend to roll some really good cover saves, or that my opponents get overwhelmed by target saturation and spread their fire too thin, but in general I find your average 1750 pts IG list rarely gets to do significant damage to me in turns 1 and 2. Most of the casualties I suffer against them come later, when most of our transports are popped and bolters and lasguns are chainswords are being used everywhere. It usually turns into a very fun slaughter, if anything. :(

 

Granted, I've never played against a proper leafblower list (nobody runs that around here), but then most competitive lists I see in 1750-1850 pts tournaments (which is the format I prefer and try to play the most) aren't leafblowers to begin with.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

An all comers guard list, can reliably expect to be knocking down up to 3 transports a turn, then get in to FRF SRF range.

Popping smoke, hiding front armor out of LoS so as to get 3+ cover saves, and generally maintaining some proper target saturation means that no, there's no way a standard 1500-1850 pts IG list is going to be popping 3 transports a turn unless the guard player is exceedingly lucky.

 

Unless the guard player is exceedingly UNlucky! In 1850 pt lists IG can reliably field 50 melta, pieplates, ACs and LCs. So spam those Rhinos in his face. I personally will insist on using pods, as mentioned before, even Rhinos won't get those Tacs stuck in quickly enough. Get a few Locator Beacons on the Pods and you will be severely limiting those Guardsmen's mobility, which they already lack

[Fatuous]

No list is ever going to be able to completely denign you getting up close and personnal (well maybe leaf blowers, I haven't played with or against one of those), and certainly some units will get thru and wreck havoc :P It's where teh fun really begins.

 

From an IG perspective tho, it is all about disrupting what and when things will get there. With marines needing to support each other, the loss of a few tranports deminishes that first turn of guard death to localised pockets. If everything get there, then it'll be a massacre, so delaying key units in joining the fight on turn 2 is vital to not getting wiped out.

 

Similarly with fast orks lists with lots of truks, you'll never take them all down, but it is all about limitiing how many squads are going to get hit by ork charges, you need to be cutting them down to 50% waves, so you can effectively deal with them.

 

This applies to mech'd marines and SOBs just as much. If they all get to you T2, then it is good night, so a decent guard should be packing enough light anti-tank to hold off at least 1 flank.

 

So to counter it (hey back on topic ;)) you need rhino spamming to the extreme, 4 isn't really going to be enough to get enough of your guys there in 1 piece at the same time, as stopping half of them should be pretty easy to do. Pods on the other hand, are a guard players worst nightmare, as you simple can not stop those flamers getting right where they need to be. Even saturating your DZ with bodies won't stop a dreadnaught podding in to MM range and slagging a tank before they can respond. I've lost countless tanks to this, and thoroughily enjoy doing it myself now I have some pods for my marines :). Pods also give you the advantage of being able to effectively block vechiles movement on terrain heavy tables, even in terrain light tables you can block a chock point, making vechiles take those dangerous terrain test, block LOS or grant cover saves.

[Giga]

I personally will insist on using pods, as mentioned before, even Rhinos won't get those Tacs stuck in quickly enough. Get a few Locator Beacons on the Pods and you will be severely limiting those Guardsmen's mobility, which they already lack

Can't see how this is a good idea. Even if you get first turn and the guard player decides to deploy, you'll still at best kill a few transports, and then your tacticals will be left in the open to be blown apart or shot down by massed lasgun fire.

[Grey Mage]

I personally will insist on using pods, as mentioned before, even Rhinos won't get those Tacs stuck in quickly enough. Get a few Locator Beacons on the Pods and you will be severely limiting those Guardsmen's mobility, which they already lack

Can't see how this is a good idea. Even if you get first turn and the guard player decides to deploy, you'll still at best kill a few transports, and then your tacticals will be left in the open to be blown apart or shot down by massed lasgun fire.

Only assuming your playing that kind of gaurd. What if theyre infantry squads to start with, and this allows you to target their marine-killing artillery and heavy/special weapon teams turn 1? What if you dont play DPs like an idiot and instead take good support elements to complement them?

 

Or, your opponent deploys first so you get to see what starts on and what doesnt, and deploy accordingly. Using DPs to take advantageous points to set up your own heavy weapons and bolters into deadly overlapping arcs where side armor will be easier to find and infantry can be ganged up on, even blob squads. Or heck, deploying normally in foward positions while using DPs to try and deny him areas to come in off the board from.

[Aron]

Thanks for all those ideas.

This is probably my biggest topic yet.