Untitled HQ

[Scrambles]

I am trying to find out which unnamed Chaos Hq is more appropriate for it's cost. Everyone demands the Daemon Prince with wings, I fancy the Chaos lord, but the Chaos Sorcerer has some interesting role too.

 

Out of these three units, what would be the most efficient model and best equipped?

[Jeffy.Gee]

That would depend entirely on how you wanted to use him.

 

JG

[Cpt. Postumus]

In my last game I fielded the following combo:

 

Lord with MoN / Combi-Flamer / Nurgle Demon Weapon (a Sorcerer with Breath of Chaos (and a Familiar and Gift of Chaos?) could work here too, if I wasn't fighting Space Wolves I would have tried it) leading-

 

9 Plague Marines / 2 Flamers / Icon / Sgt w/ Combi-Flamer and a Power Fist / Rhino

 

It tore through two squads of Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest and a Wolf Lord in consecutive turns before succumbing to a Vindicator shot that I was sure was out of range (it wasn't ;) ).

 

 

A bit on the expensive side but I'll be using it again!

 

Postumus

[The_Crippster]

Most efficient? Daemon Prince hands down.

[David the Despoiler]

Lord, Nurgle, Daemon Weapon. This bad boy has dealt with many beasties in his days, I thoroughly enjoy using him. He's my favorite small-points games HQ choice.

[Sception]

If you want points efficiency it really is the daemon prince. The daemon prince also offers an additional tactical element in the game - a whole extra unit to consider in the movement phase, and a unit type that you're probably not otherwise running in the army.

 

The other two HQs generally serve as upgrades to existing units, and fairly expensive upgrades at that, for what they do. They aren't terrible - I've been known to run an undivided lorded with a daemon weapon, or a jump pack lord with lightning claws, or a sorcerer in power or terminator armor, and they've all be decent. Just not as points efficient as the Prince, and in general they don't bring as much to the table.

 

The sorcerer is probably the second most efficient, considering it's default gear when compared to the Lord. It's also more versatile, since you can give him some decent ranged psychic powers or give him warp time for improved melee ability.

 

 

Of course, part of my low opinion of the other HQs comes from my particular army - the core of my list is mechanized CSM squads, and they have to give up one of their two special weapon slots to make room for any independent character that might want to hitch a ride with them. This pushes the opportunity cost of independent characters even higher for me. If you're running cult marines, it's easier to fit independent characters in with them.

[David the Despoiler]

Aye, agreed with the above. The IC choices are only to be taken when put in with cult units, sacrificing the precious second special weapon isn't worth it.

[Scrambles]

But the Daemon Prince can't be added to other squads, doesn't this make him less efficient than the other two Hq's?

[the jeske]

0_0 more target saturation , cant be ID . Fast as rhino .

lord/sorc. Can be ID , so good chance he will eat a fist . same unit as a troop choice so easier to focus fire [for your opponent] .

DPs even without warp time kill more , they dont stun themselfs on 1 or they need to use a force weapon or warp time [stoped 50% of time against most armies] .

There is no better HQ choice then the DP.

[Blood brother]

If you want a CC monster take a Lord/ MoK/ Khorne deamon wep/ wings

I have had many times when this guy would slaughter a 10 man tac squad alone in 1 turn. To keep him alive longer put him with some raptors.

[Zhukov]

Although this might sound very wrong: Winged Deamon Prince, no discussion possible.

 

If I leave out the Deamon Prince; then my vote goes to:

 

Lord

-wings

-mark of nurgle

-deamon weapon

-combimelta/meltabombs optional

 

If you are not unlucky with you dice rolls, he beats most things up without something S8+ in it. Those are right away the downsides too: Instakillable, bad dice rolls make him an expensive dying model. If things go well though, he can be pretty devastating; he just lacks reliability and is too dependant on the oponent.

 

Survivability because of IC status is hardly an advantage I say: like Jeske says, less targets is not good at all and your troops being shot neither.

[Warsmith Morenze]

It all depends on your intention.

 

Tournament players tend to favour the Daemon Prince for brute force and being able to fill both the sorcerer and lord role in an army.

I prefer a Chaos Lord and a Sorcerer in my armies, as it is a themed force. Really, it's all about what you want to do with your army.

 

Overall, I think the Prince has the edge, as they can do some nasty damage in the right hands.

[Xeonic]

I feel the prince is the best HQ for the points, though a lord with daemon weapon or sorc sitting in a rhino lashing things are both viable as well. I've never fielded a prince yet(my warband leader hasn't earned the upgrade!), but it's easy to see how awesome he is for the cost compared to one of the ICs. I just haven't converted up a suitable one for my force yet.

 

As for zomg, instakillable T4 ICs, boo hoo, everyone else uses them, seriously, and most of them are worse off than chaos HQs(look at how weaksauce a generic SM libby is in CC compared to a sorc!). It's not that big of a deal if you're playing smart, but yes, a daemon prince instantly removes the instant death threat, and is thus instantly best contender because of how cheap he is compared to a tooled up lord or sorc.

Ironically the reason virtually every sarge/champ in my respective armies has a fist are because most people play with instakillable T4 ICs.

It is worth noting that a sorc can sit in a rhino the whole game lashing stuff where a prince must hide or weather fire whilst doing the same.

 

Daemon prince wins hands down for cost efficiency and because he actually helps with armor saturation since all of the weapons that can hurt him also would be happy popping your rhinos.

The T4 IC HQs are great, but due to the fact that they cost as much or more than a winged lord(130pts is equal to a lord with daemon weapon and nothing else, or 5 pts more than a sorc with MoS and lash) and are a lot more durable, while helping your delicate transport to achieve their job it's generally speaking no contest.

 

So in short my view is that the ICs are good, even better(or worse) than some other armies T4 IC choices, but the prince is strictly speaking a better value for the points, and because he brings something to the table besides a very killy PA body. But then again my view about that is based on a background playing codex marines where all my HQ are T4(well, except cassius) and a well tooled vanilla captain or libby runs 130-160 pts(or higher for those games I run a special character or libby in TDA with SS and epistolary). The biggest shortfalls of codex ICs are largely ignored by the chaos book, btw, my I4, 2W, no invuln libby wants a word with you. ;) It's worth noting that a libby is still one of the best value for the points in the marine codex as far as HQ choices go.

In my estimation the best IC in the chaos codex is probably Khârn, for the points vs what he brings to the table he's a total beast.

 

Purely speculation on my part, but in the next edition when sorcs lose a wound and their invuln, and get their powers for free and daemon princes get hiked up 50-100 pts along with their general stat increases, those T4 ICs will start to look a lot nicer.

[the jeske]

As for zomg, instakillable T4 ICs, boo hoo, everyone else uses them, seriously, and most of them are worse off than chaos HQs(look at how weaksauce a generic SM libby is in CC compared to a sorc!).

the libby has a hood . he counters stuff he is important , the sorc does nothing like that.

 

So in short my view is that the ICs are good, even better(or worse) than some other armies T4 IC choices, but the prince is strictly speaking a better value for the points, and because he brings something to the table besides a very killy PA body.

how is a lord better then vulkan or khan or pedro . all our non DP HQ are worse then the even semi good good HQ choices other power armor dex have. Even the DA ones are better and that tells us a lot about our guys.

It's worth noting that a libby is still one of the best value for the points in the marine codex as far as HQ choices go.

not true. the specials are best point for point , because they modfiy FOC and buff the whole army. the libby is good only because of his abilty to stop psychic powers, if someone tries to run him as a hth character[and chaos characters are just hth characters] then he is playing a very odd build .

[Xeonic]

I think the basic libby is the best value for points you can get in an HQ in the marine 'dex, points for pesos, but that's my opinion. The marine 'dex is a badly written piece of tripe atm, so special characters are the only way to change the dynamics of a marine army, this is true(~ly my opinion). Vulkan is made of cheese, this is opinion. With my opinions out of the way...

 

In a personal 1v1 combat to the death, I'd put money on the sorc 7 of 10 times. The libby may cancel out the sorc's powers and can be I10 or S6 in CC but in order for that buff to be important he has to cost more than the sorc(epistolary). The sorc has 3W to the libby's 2, I5, and an invulnerable save that can be increased to what, 3+? For the libby to even get an invulnerable he needs to be given terminator armor. Chaos ICs are all about personal combat prowess, whereas marine ICs(basic captain aside) are all about buffing the army or even just the squad they're attached to. I agree it was probably a bad comparison, but chaos ICs do have a strong statline and array of powers/wargear/upgrade options compared to many codices. You can disagree with me if you want, of course, that is your prerogative.

 

Saying that these two characters could never be in CC together is silly, as is saying that you can keep them out of CC for sure every game. CC ability is written into the characters and it's only one point of comparison of course. Nevermind that the sorc is faster, tougher to kill, and better at shooting than a libby, whilst being more flexible with regards to options and upgrades. Yes, the libby can buff the squad he's attached to, yes he can nullzone elites, he he can nullify psychic powers... but he's still more of a pushover in CC than a sorc.

 

Again, the 100 pt basic libby I find to be a good value for points for my marines(I play ultras with generally only ultra special characters though, so I'm biased), but the sorc entry is a lot more configurable. Yes, I'm hoping sorcs get some psychic defence and maybe a set of points free basic powers in the 5th edition 'dex, as I play chaos too, but if they follow the way of the marine codices that will come at the cost of personal CC ability.

 

Really what I should have said in my other post is that chaos ICs are in the same boat as the marine 'dex vanilla captain. People will take them because they're fluffy and reasonably killy, but they don't really contribute much of anything to the army as a whole. They'll take the libby or chaplain because they change the dynamic of the game, give something extra to your army other than just a single killy character. That said, I love my relic blade artificer armor, combi melta, aux grenade launcher, hellfire bolts captain(180pts) and am rarely suprised when he chews through an entire squad that lacks a fist by himself. I play him because he's fluffy and fun, which is of course the reason I play 40k to begin with, because I enjoy the background and getting together to play tabletop games is fun for me.

 

But you can have an opposing opinion too, that doesn't bother me in the slightest, and as I said, daemon princes are the best choice in pretty much any given situation, but the normal ICs shouldn't be dismissed with a wave of the hand because they really are as competitive as some of the other armies' 2nd choice stringers, and they're fun in their own ways.

Oh, and Khârn is still a fantastic deal for the points.

[cunvikted]

I just played a 2500 pt game last week and used a Termie Sorcerer surrounded by 1k sons w/ Aspiring Sorcerer. It worked out great, 3 psychic powers against the same squad, I did suffer Perils on the Aspiring at the end, but before that happened they did wreak a lot of havoc. I liked it and had the points to do it in.

 

I also like using a nugle DP. it makes a great target and usually people focus on it. It does plenty of damage for the points and Nurgle's Rot is great during CC. Especially on horde armies. Just my opinion, but no matter what you choose make sure you use all it's strength and have a meat shield (possessed, troops, chosen, etc...). It helps

[Scrambles]

I appreciate the information. My codex background makes me use the Terminator Lord with Terminators, even Chaos Dreadnoughts. But the situation calls for the Daemon Prince.

[Canadin]

I use on Lash prince (155 points) and one khorne prince (140 points) and they both have wings

 

I much prefer the IC's just for aesthetic... but when it comes down to it, they just arnt as point-effecient as daemon princes with wings. (so I modelled one of my slaanesh prince like a chaos lord surfing on a large grav platform)

 

For the sorcerer; well, the Prince IS A SORCERER, who can shoot twice if you so desire

 

For the Lord; well there is istant death, then there is the fact that daemon weapons stop you from attacking when they dont work

 

If you want a sorc, get a tzeentch prince; If you want a Lord, you CAN choose the fat man with the diseased hobo knife (nurgle lord)

 

But if you want something efficient: either a Lash Prince for troop control; a Khorne prince for low point cost; a nurgle prince for warp-time melee monster madness (too costly for me); or Tzeentch prince for a mobile psychic blasting platform (warptime, wind of chaos, gift of chaos, bolt of tzeentch; the choices are great, but expensive)

[Muffin]

I've started to run this guy.

 

Lord: MoS, Twin L.Claws, D.Steed and M.Bombs.

 

Works along the lines of the old Daemonic Speed lords and generally strikes first unless he's fighting Dark/Eldar which woud just be silly.

He usually minces 10 man MEQ's in 2 combat phases (mine then his) which gives me next turn to charge again whilst the Rhino CSM's are ready to provide backup.

[Brother RedAxe]

I mainly play small games (1000 pts or less mostly 500pts) And for these games I normally take Termie Lord (the armor sv is almost necessary aginst Tau), MOS (almost always go first in HTH), Demon Weapon (for instant kill). Sometimes I use Power armor lord with wings, MOS, pair LC's. Both have no problem tearing through troop and most elite units. Most of the time I use my armor as a block for LOS to my lords till I get them where i want them. With psychic null becoming more prevelant in armies the sorc and prince have become wasted pts(in my expirence). As I started playing 40K with Tau army I have adopted some of the tau tatics for use in my chaos army and they seem to go together nicely. I have yet to loose a lord to ID or anything else for that matter. The sorc always seems to come out more pts for me and the prince comes out a little more than my termie lord so they all can do almost the same thing.

[The Unspeakable]

Wow. I suck big time - just goes to show how much of a difference experience makes, eh?

I've been playing tzeentch termie lord for the 4+ invul with daemon wep for the SM killing prowess...

Haven't got a DP yet, but planning on getting one...

I just started playing Chaos SMs and i don't get many games where i'm from, so i'm quite fresh. :jaw:

[Scrambles]

I had just played a 1250pt. game vs Tau, the Daemon Prince (Wings+WarpTime = 155) rolled over the other player and taking only 1 wound from the Crisis BattleSuit. I had him fly behind structures to out-flank the Tau player while my Raptors were flanking the other side, the fight couldn't have gone better.

[Mr. Sandbot]

DP with wings.

Its tough, it flies, its cheap and it gets the job done. Not to mention if I were to get say a MoT Sorceror with a jump pack, warp time and wind of chaos it costs the exact same amount as a DP with all of the above. The main difference is that the DP has a better state line and can dish out more damage as a result. Not to mention, the Lord and Sorcerer will always require an escort which seems to up the price a little too much in my eyes.

Plus, as a Thousand Son player, I need that extra bit of anti-tank power the DP brings with him for his price.

 

I generally don't touch lords now a days just because of how unreliable and expensive they are in my lists. Sorcerers still have a place because I can roll them with raptors and play around with triple template blasts of hilarity. Failing that I tend to work with 2x melta and the Sorcerer with WT/meltabombs. Tends to help here and there against mechanized hordes.

[IronWinds]

DP wings, MoN or MoT, warptime. Its a done deal. Efficient... done.

 

 

If you want a cheap HQ... they come in handy sometimes... Sorcerer w/ Doombolt. Don't even bother with a lord, a lord with a power weapon is 5pts less than a sorcerer with a force weapon and doombolt. There isn't much to compare :verymad: .

 

 

Probably the worst: Lord MoK DW. Yes he can shell out a ton of attacks. He also hurts himself 1/3 of the time, and if you run the numbers 'on average' he only dishes out 1 more attack than an undivided lord with a DW(which is +1str by the way). On average he doesn't really get any more kills. The MoK DW Lord has the 'potential' to dish out a ton of attacks, but statistically he is far more likely to hurt himself or only be mediocre.

[Captain Tezdal]

I've always been the lord type, being a fan of the human look, but the new DP coming out might tempt me to try using a prince. Princes also seem to be the most effective in gameplay , and fairly popular if of the Lash variety.