Command squad use and configuration?...

[Shenaniganz]

Hey hey. Recently started a new army and heres the list i am going for in the list forums. I just got the gear for my command squad but before i start modelling i wanted to get some advice on command squad configurations.... I plan to use it in conjuction with the rest of the army to basicaly plug holes in my battle line that i see coming, if i see them coming :D . Anyways i was just going for a plain vanilla command squad with bearer and champion in razorback...

 

Anyone had any advice in how to configure them or how to use them?

[Giga]

Well, the universal command squad I like to use is as follows:

 

3x plasmagun

1x powerfist

razorback

 

Comes out at 225 pts. The three plasmaguns mean the squad can effectively shoot at heavy infantry, light vehicles, and monstrous creatures. Combined with null zone, this squad can really threaten a lot of stuff out there.

[Tai'shar]

Command Squads are interesting beasts coming in at 23 points per model with Feel No Pain, 2nd cheapest of all veterans Terminators at 40, Sternguard at 25 with special ammo and Vanguard at 22 (taking out cost of free power weapon). They lack any ability to increase squad size though being stuck at 5. Also no longer maintain retinue status protect ICs from incoming fire.

 

There are two general command squads - Biked and Special Weapon Squad. Close Combat Command Squads are seen as sub-optimal, lack of bodies and high cost (when equipped with effective weapons/defense).

 

They have 3 unit options,

-Bikes, we'll ignore these are you want a mechanised squad

-Company Standard granting re-rolls on Morale and Pinning tests and counts as an extra wound in combat resolutions. In 'vanilla' marine armys (IE no Pedro, Vulkan, etc - no swapping of Combat Tactics) the re-roll is useless bewteen ATSKNF and 'voluntray' fleeing. Extra wound is alright but I would rather be causing an extra wound.

-Company Champion is useful, though mostly for that +1WS being able to hit MEQ grunts on a 3+, as such should always be equipped with a bolt/plasma-pistol to maximise power weapon attacks. The points are certainly well spent if you planned on having power weapons in the squad and a Champion should always be taking over giving a Veteran a power weapon. Never forget that he has the little combat shield also, while only a weak 6++ save it may just save his life some day.

While some may challenge it, most believe that it is possible to give the Champion upgrades while he is still a Veteran and he keeps them when he turns into a Champion. Don't use this to upgrade him to a powerfist/thunder hammer though, it's just a waste of points for that +1WS.

 

 

The Command Squad's best use though is packing four special weapons, riding up to the front lines, jumping out and hitting something, hard. I would advise you from using meltagun's though how ever large the tempation it is a waste of potential. There are only 2 worthwhile combinations flamers and plasmaguns, combi-s just don't seem to work out. Flamers work if you see a lot horde armies in your normal games, 4 templates cause a lot of wounds, and keeps the unit slightly cheap still. Plasmas are GREAT!, FNP protects from Gets Hot! and the plasma statline makes them the perfect answer for medium tanks and walkers and elite units. Best held back from the army until they can rapid-fire the right unit. Works really well with Null Zone to destory Assault Terminators.

 

Always swap the chainsword for the special weapon, only expection is storm bolters.

 

Favourite Load Outs

Command Squad w/ Champion, 2 Flamers in Rhino - escort for my Captain used as a counter assualt unit perfoming Rhino drive-bys, bargain at 175 points. Needs to avoid elite units and walkers.

 

Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns in Razorback. Used to take out largest threat in opposing army. Very effective at 215 points, generally runs around on its own while Captain joins another squad.

[Koremu]

There are basically three schools of thought, with some hybridisation between the concepts possible. These are the "Specialist", the "Assault" and the "Over-Equipped".

 

Specialist Command Squads are more or less what Giga mentions - 3 or 4 Special Weapons with some bolt-ons like a Power Fist. 4 Plasma Guns is a lot of STR7 AP2 firepower.

 

Assault Command Squads vary a lot. I like to use a Champion, a Banner Bearer with Power Fist, a guy with a Storm Shield and a vanilla guy (sometimes with Melta Bombs). Occasionally I'll add one or two Special Assault Weapons (Plasma Pistol, Meltagun or Flamer).

 

Over-Equipped Command Squads give everone in the Squad a Storm Shield, Special Weapon and an LClaw or PFist. As a result they cost buckets and aren't really that good.

 

 

I would say that you should always design the Command Squad to support the role that the Captain is designed for. I tend to only use the Specialist Shooty variety of Command Squad with a support issue Captain like Sicarius, prefering the Assault Command Squad to follow my regular Relic Blade + Storm Shield Captain.

[Predator-joe]

Have Hestan, then 4 melta or flamer. BURN THE XENOS :cuss

[Koremu]

Have Hestan, then 4 melta or flamer. BURN THE XENOS :P

The trouble with that is that he isn't a Captain, so you have to take him, a Captain and the Command Squad, which is costly.

[Xeonic]

I've used and like two setups.

4x plasmagun is an easy choice to make, the feel no pain rolls will save you often where 3+ armor wouldn't and will also help keep you alive to dish out pain vs intended targets - light armor, elites, and MCs. Keep them out of combat and in cover to keep them alive. This also frees up the captain to lead terminators or some other squad somewhere else. This is an overall great setup that can dish out a lot of firepower that will instant death T3, ignore all infantry armor, and generally not kill itself.

 

champ, fist, standard(optional). I use this setup as assault/counter assault in small points games(1k or less). Yes, it's expensive(not as expensive as a ranged setup if you leave the SS home though!), and fragile to massed PW attacks, but in a razor or rhino you're saving a lot of points that would normally be spent on a land raider or expensive hammer unit. I may add in a storm shield or two, maybe not. The champion is a great buy and required on any CC build, as is of course, a fist. The standard has quite little benefit, but it is nice to have, and fluffy(I use this setup when running a themed list too. The fist of course allows them to handle anything within reason, they then don't have to worry about being tarpitted by a walker or MC. Teh general idea here is not to countercharge assault specialists loaded with power weapons, but to charge/countercharge normal CC squads such as chaos marines or space wolves(even assault marines). Feel no pain goes a long ways towards neutralizing a squad with one powerfist or power weapon, and a storm shield mixed in with the squad can sometimes totally neutralize a single fist. People tend to hate it when the vast majority of their attacks towards you are nullified by either feel no pain or a 3+ invuln.

 

A little 5 man squad overwhelming full chaos marine squads is pretty amusing on the table top though.

[Giga]

IMHO, the only really competitive command squad loadouts are the shooty ones with lots of plasma. Let's look at the other options;

 

The 4x flamer command squad seems like a fun option. With a razorback, a squad like that costs 175 pts... But then again, I feel 3x mm/hf speeders are a way better overall option as they cost 210 pts while being faster, killier, more survivable, and capable of taking out vehicles as well. They're also a whole lot cooler. :lol:

 

The same can be said about the 4x meltagun command squad. Why take that when you can just take 3 mm/hf speeders instead?

 

Close combat command squads aren't truly viable in my book. If you could buy additional veterans then they would be good, but only 5 dudes just aren't going to have the weight of attacks to bring down larger units. On the other hand, if you start giving them storm shields and power stuff you'll quickly end up with an overpriced unit that needs a LR to work properly... At which point you're better off taking assault terminators.

 

The biker command squad, no matter how you gear it up, is both too expensive and too easy to kill for my liking.

[Koremu]

Close combat command squads aren't truly viable in my book. If you could buy additional veterans then they would be good, but only 5 dudes just aren't going to have the weight of attacks to bring down larger units. On the other hand, if you start giving them storm shields and power stuff you'll quickly end up with an overpriced unit that needs a LR to work properly... At which point you're better off taking assault terminators.

 

The biker command squad, no matter how you gear it up, is both too expensive and too easy to kill for my liking.

We've been through this before, but in essence I disagree with you for two reasons;

 

1) The CC Command Squad is there in order to support the Main Event (The Captain) by giving FNP, numbers, a +1 Combat res (good to counter the limited squad size), a WS5 Champion, a Krak-catching Storm Shield and a Power Fist.

 

2) They don't require the 250+ point investment in a Land Raider - a Razorback is perfectly fine for them.

[Exterminatus Machine]

I personally use my Honour Guard (Blood Angels Command Squad) as Force Weapon Delivery System that also serves as a a special weapon group...flamer and melta, one dude's chapter standard, one's a regular douche and the apothocary extreme...They do what I need them to.

[Giga]

We've been through this before, but in essence I disagree with you for two reasons;

 

1) The CC Command Squad is there in order to support the Main Event (The Captain) by giving FNP, numbers, a +1 Combat res (good to counter the limited squad size), a WS5 Champion, a Krak-catching Storm Shield and a Power Fist.

 

2) They don't require the 250+ point investment in a Land Raider - a Razorback is perfectly fine for them.

1) I personally prefer units that can do stuff on their own, instead of just being support for an HQ. Also, I feel the WS5 champion isn't worth his point cost as he's armed with a powersword and a combat shield (meaning he doesn't get a +1 attack from having two CCWs).

 

Also, you're the guy who puts a storm shield, a powerfist, and a company banner on one guy? I find that to be terribly risky, as a small bit of bad luck means you're losing a whole lot of stuff.

 

2) I've played quite a bit against razorback/rhino-driven assault command squads. I've always had an easy time popping their transports (being able to reliably multimelta them from ~24" away helps a lot, + my combipredator loves them), and their general lack of movement speed means I can dictate if and what they can assault. It also often means they have to react to me, rather then being able to thwart my plans in advance.

 

But of course, as I always say, if it works for you then by all means, you should use it. My metagame, after all, is not the same as your own.

[mowglie]

...the WS5 champion isn't worth his point cost as he's armed with a powersword and a combat shield (meaning he doesn't get a +1 attack from having two CCWs)

 

Unlike the SS, the Combat Shield doesn't prohibit you gaining the extra attack. Neither does the Champion upgrade state that you exchange your starting wargear - i.e. he keeps his Bolt Pistol (technically, I think he keeps his Chainsword as well...)

 

2) I've played quite a bit against razorback/rhino-driven assault command squads. I've always had an easy time popping their transports

 

Came up in the "Are assault units always needed" thread. Don't feel like rehashing it here, but generally I agree. You can't assault out of a moving razorback, and it's only AV11 to pop. That rules it out as a "reliable" delivery system for your expensive unit. I'm not a fan of infantry CC command squads because I find them easy to control on the battlefield.

 

4x Plasmagun is certainly worthwhile (FNP is excellent synergy), I think you have better options for massed melta or flamer.

 

I *do* like the bike command squad - even in small games, (they're fantastically killy, if fantastically expensive, but granting FNP to both your HQs is worth it, I think, plus the ability to crack any transport and assault basically anything that was riding in it...). That's a wee bit off-topic though.

[Giga]

Unlike the SS, the Combat Shield doesn't prohibit you gaining the extra attack. Neither does the Champion upgrade state that you exchange your starting wargear - i.e. he keeps his Bolt Pistol (technically, I think he keeps his Chainsword as well...)

Umm... I don't have the codex right here, but since the veteran is effectively replaced with the champion (the champion is hence not a veteran per se), it states that the champion is armed with power sword and combat shield. Hence, it means he doesn't have his bolt pistol and chainswords any more, as the old veteran is replaced with a new guy - the champion.

[mowglie]

Umm... I don't have the codex right here, but since the veteran is effectively replaced with the champion (the champion is hence not a veteran per se), it states that the champion is armed with power sword and combat shield. Hence, it means he doesn't have his bolt pistol and chainswords any more, as the old veteran is replaced with a new guy - the champion.

 

I know what you mean, but that's not my reading of it. The phrase used in the codex is "One veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion with a power weapon and combat shield".

 

1) The Wargear section doesn't state that only Veterans have the listed wargear (otherwise the Apothecary would also be lacking a chainsword/bolt pistol).

2) It's pretty clear that he's still supposed to be armed with Power Armour and Frag/Krak Grenades (listed alongside the Chainsword and BP with identical wording)

3) That's the whole point of the CS.

4) The CS part in the command squad box has a bolt pistol modelled onto the back of it:- http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg125/a...ao/DSC02376.jpg

 

The usual source of confusion is that the "Model Options" section states "Any veteran may..." thus excluding both the Champion and the Apothecary from further upgrades.

[Xeonic]

The combat shield that comes in the command squad box has a bolt pistol modeled into it, which I see as good evidence that he gets a pistol(every GW example uses that shield!). In addition the basic wargear apparently covers everyone in the squad, including upgrade characters(it covers the apoth as well, though he is not a "veteran" and thus cannot be upgraded).

It does not say Bolt Pistol(Veterans), it just says Bolt Pistol. Every man in the unit should get one, basic wargear is inclusive to the whole unit unless specified, and it IS specified.

 

Otherwise he wouldn't even get grenades, since it's not listed in his entry.

 

EDIT: I'm slow.

[Koremu]

We've been through this before, but in essence I disagree with you for two reasons;

 

1) The CC Command Squad is there in order to support the Main Event (The Captain) by giving FNP, numbers, a +1 Combat res (good to counter the limited squad size), a WS5 Champion, a Krak-catching Storm Shield and a Power Fist.

 

2) They don't require the 250+ point investment in a Land Raider - a Razorback is perfectly fine for them.

1) I personally prefer units that can do stuff on their own, instead of just being support for an HQ. Also, I feel the WS5 champion isn't worth his point cost as he's armed with a powersword and a combat shield (meaning he doesn't get a +1 attack from having two CCWs).

 

Also, you're the guy who puts a storm shield, a powerfist, and a company banner on one guy? I find that to be terribly risky, as a small bit of bad luck means you're losing a whole lot of stuff.

 

It's a Command Squad. It comes with a Captain. It is inherently designed to be a unit that is support for a HQ. If it helps, consider the Captain to be an entire Combat Squad all to himself.

 

Mowglie has said all that needs to be said regarding the Champions Wargear. He does have a Pistol (in fact he still has a Chainsword too, and can have a Bolter instead of the Pistol if you want, and still have the +1A for 2 CCWs), as well as his Frag and Krak Grenades and his Power Armour.

 

For setup, I use this;

 

Champion

Veteran with Banner and Power Fist

Veteran with Storm Shield

Veteran (sometimes with Melta Bombs)

Apothecary

 

Bear in mind here that the purpose is to be able to allocate any incoming fire around the unit as I see fit, and to 'lock' enemy unit members in CC with the Squad to prevent the Captain being dogpiled. It works well against the kind of small durable units that I need it to handle alone. It's excellent at killing most Power Armoured Squads, even those with 'hidden' Power Fists.

 

2) I've played quite a bit against razorback/rhino-driven assault command squads. I've always had an easy time popping their transports (being able to reliably multimelta them from ~24" away helps a lot, + my combipredator loves them), and their general lack of movement speed means I can dictate if and what they can assault. It also often means they have to react to me, rather then being able to thwart my plans in advance.

 

But of course, as I always say, if it works for you then by all means, you should use it. My metagame, after all, is not the same as your own.

My opponents find it very difficult to allocate significant firepower to a Razorback when they have a plethora of Vindicators, Predators, Rhinos and Land Speeders to fire at. It also helps that my Razorback tends to be directly following another Rhino or Rhino derived vehicle (usually one or more Vindicators), making it very hard to get a clear shot that doesn't incur a 3+ Cover Save.

 

I do 'Armoured Wedge' in a BIG way :o

 

As for your Speeders... well, I have a Combi-Predator too (ho ho ho). And soon, Rifleman will be making its appearance :o

 

 

 

 

 

I do use other Command Squad types as well. Yesterday I used Sicarius and 3 Plasma Guns in his Command Squad.

[Fatuous]

Interesting idea there guys thanks for the pointer, I'm considering a command squad and was at risk of massively over upgrading it. This has really helped in bringing it back under control :D

[Giga]

@ mowglie

 

Ah cool, I'm glad to see that I got those rules wrong. :D TBH, I find it pretty dumb that the champion can't be upgraded with additional weapons (a WS5 power fist would be really nice), but hey, can't have it all.

It's a Command Squad. It comes with a Captain. It is inherently designed to be a unit that is support for a HQ. If it helps, consider the Captain to be an entire Combat Squad all to himself.

Fluff-wise, yeah. In actual game such rules do not apply.

It works well against the kind of small durable units that I need it to handle alone. It's excellent at killing most Power Armoured Squads, even those with 'hidden' Power Fists.

As I said, if it works for you, you should definitely stick with it. And if you tend to fight a lot against small MEQ squads, then I agree that such a command squad might be a pretty good option when combined with some target saturation.

 

It's just that, out of my experience, that razorback/rhino has always been easy to take out (or at least stun/immobilize), and that an expensive squad in a transport like that was always easy to avoid or at least postpone considerably. Which is why I don't see it as a truly viable option. Which is okay, since I don't see command squads as a *serious* unit anyway (I use them mostly in my generic captain lists, which is to say my *fun* lists). Except even in those lists I prefer my captain charging into the midst of things accompanied by a bunch of assault termies (usually LCs and TH/SS combined, for the fun factor ;)).

 

Either way, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :lol:

[pingo]

I ran a basic chaplain with an assaulty command squad and captain recently. On the charge, they were vicious (28 attacks with re-rolls to hit).

 

They later got shot to peices, but that first assault was devestating :D

[Captain Idaho]

I really can't see the point in assault based Command squads to be honest. There are so many better options, incluing Vanguard. I would rather 8 Vanguard with assorted wargear (including 2 SS) than a cheaper Command squad with less bodies and FNP.

 

That is just me, doesn't mean I was right. Though I probably am! :)