Aurelius Rex Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 The Dornian Heresy project in the first issue of the Legio Imprint has generated interest as to how to portray the armies on the tabletop, and so to start off with, this thread is to gather ideas about how to make game-legal and characterful rules for each legion. Hopefully we can select an appropriate codex to 'count-as' and make everything nice and neat, but if we can't, it should at least give us a jumping off point for house-rules later on. If we get some kind of consensus agreement, then it might be possible to collate things as a Librarium article, or even as part of a future Legio Imprint with the second half of the Dornian Heresy. :) First up, one of the easier (I hope) Alt-Heresy legions to 'count-as' - Angron's World Eaters. The background IA article is available in the first issue of the Legio Imprint - downloadable pdf from the top banner or my sig - but here is the condensed version... What would be the best codex to use for DH World Eaters? They still use chain-axes and prefer close combat, but are strictly under control of themselves, perhaps fearing what might come out if they ever let loose! They also use bolter-armed Tactical squads and Devastators, which to me tells against using C:BT or or C:BA seem too uncontrolled, and they have access to Imperial kit that would be procluded in C:CSM. Would Codex: Space Marines work best, with it being flavourful to take lots of assault / vanguard squads, perhaps often without the jump packs and leaping straight from Rhinos or Drop pods? (This might also differentiate them from the Dornian Heresy Emperor's Children!) Chain axes in their hands would simply be a normal CCW. I can't think of anything from C:SM that would have to be characterfully restricted from C:SM... can you? Would C:SW be a better fit? I don't have that much experience with that new codex. :) OK, throwing it out to the group... Thoughts? Even fun stuff like 'counts-as' Special Characters from the Legion's history like Khârn the Deathless? :P Regards, Aurelius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Hmm, sounds interesting so far! You could use the codex and simply rename bits here and there. Make it available as a .PDF file like the Legio Imprint volume 1. It should be more than just a rulelist though. I think added artwork and colour text would be quite important too, very much in the style of the 4th and 5th edition codeci. Special characters with some history on them, mentioning some famous battles, adding a timeline and maybe even a modelling article or two? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leebe Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Cato Sicarius could make a good counts as for Khârn the Deathless. Have his Axe (is it still Gorechild?) have the same effect as the Tempest Blade (taking concentration and focus to make an effective Instant Death attack). As well, Sicarus's personal Feel No Pain is appropriate to the returned Khârn. Even Surprise Attack and Battle Forged Heroes meshes well with the Deathless, though perhaps with Counter-Attack being the preferred thing to grant a squad with BFH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 If I'm not mistaken Gorechild was a pre-heresy weapon along with Gorefather. It's teeth were taken from some creature known as the Mica-dragon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 C:BA may seem uncontrolled but they don't. Is just only 1/6 of the time they lose they self-control. Stay away from DC and Baals and you have a nice "count as" Khârn in Seth. Also you got lots of assault squads (without JPs). C:SW is nice too, just don't like (personally) the Blood Claws because they are WS & BS 3 and this don't fit with the most martial of the Legions. Have pretty good characters (I can think in Ragnar count as Khârn for the cost of a Land Raider and a powerfist) and counter-attack. C:DH are focused in close combat too, all of them use Nemesis Weapons and are about purity and self-control. But just Grey Knights, no Inquisitors and the like. The contra is the fact that none of the characters fit with Khârn. Just my thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mordray Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Well Codex: Space Marine is a pretty solid start however it just doesn't feel like a melee favoring force... Perhaps this... it's not entirely a perfect solution... as it's a house rule and it's spur of the moment... World Eaters Assault Squad (troupes) stock marine stats +1 to WS Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Chain Axe And They Shall know no Fear, 'Melee Masters', Fleet 'Melee Masters' - World Eaters are well versed in the arts of melee combat and when in melee gain a 3++ save against melee attacks. I was thinking of adding in something about gaining increased chance to hit or wound but I think them gaining the ability to tank might better represent their skill as they are able to turn aside blows most couldn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Rex Posted May 10, 2010 Author Share Posted May 10, 2010 Hey, Mordray. Good to see you here. :lol: There might be time for house rules later - I wanted to just concentrate on getting a counts-as legal codex to work from if possible first and if needed, work from there... If we need a more combat-orientated codex, would Space Wolves be a better fit as Maximvs suggests? Regarding the BA, I would worry that even a 1/6 chance of going crazy would be too much for the tightly buttoned-up WE. :) [Nips off to read C:SW now!] :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 I'd support Space Wolves or normal codex for the World Eaters in this version. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Well, this is an experimental rule used by the TF: Chain Axes. 25% of a unit, rounding up, may use Chain Axes. These must be modelled appropriately, and give the user a +1 Strength and it counts as an additional Close Combat Weapon. Also, I think that there should be a Legion Tactics trend; for example, the World Eaters replace the Combat Tactics rule with Stubborn? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Space Wolves imo. Teeth of the World Eaters (better Dev squads = Long Fangs) Counter Charge making for a better in CC type of Unit. Saga's as Paths (think Eightfold Path) I personally, for whatever reason, have always thought there was a philosophical lean to World Eaters that was never really appreciated or explored. I dont have time to expand on it, but I have it written up on my home machine. :] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Couldn't the Space Wolves include power weapons in their Grey Hunter or Blood Claw squads? Perhaps these would be the ones with "special chain axes" whilst the others have normal ones. The special ones would be akin to those used by Khârn (Gorechild), sort of that the World Eater had to battle some dangerous animal (Mica Dragon?), defeat it and use its teeth for their chain axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arikromus Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Hey, Mordray. Good to see you here. ;) There might be time for house rules later - I wanted to just concentrate on getting a counts-as legal codex to work from if possible first and if needed, work from there... If we need a more combat-orientated codex, would Space Wolves be a better fit as Maximvs suggests? Regarding the BA, I would worry that even a 1/6 chance of going crazy would be too much for the tightly buttoned-up WE. :cuss [Nips off to read C:SW now!] ;) Of the three, Space Wolves would probably be the best. C:SW is nice too, just don't like (personally) the Blood Claws because they are WS & BS 3 and this don't fit with the most martial of the Legions. Have pretty good characters (I can think in Ragnar count as Khârn for the cost of a Land Raider and a powerfist) and counter-attack. All legions have to have their "initiates". --- More house rules would be suggested, though, to better fit the army to the flavour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Rex Posted May 10, 2010 Author Share Posted May 10, 2010 The Space Wolves do seem to be interesting, especially with the opportunity for most basic squads to have both CCW and BP... and in some cases a longer ranged weapon. This adds to their potency and CC theme significantly. However, there are downsides, such as the lower WS / BS of the claw type units... not really fitting to the martial ethos of the WE to have their fastest troops not as skilled in combat. Perfectly fitting for Space wolves, I agree... Perhaps we are completely overcomplicating this by expecting there to be an ultimate and definitive answer here... How about simply stating in an article what the WE (or whatever legion) are like and then making suggestions for possible ways to represent them in a counts-as form and let the reader choose? Even have ideas for counts-as special characters without ever stating it in stone. How about just pointing the way and giving ideas and options - 'you could for instance use C:SM or C:SW to represent the World Eaters' - and let them choose rather than twisting ourselves in knots with finding the sole best way which probably doesn't exist? B) Regards, Aurelius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leebe Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Pointing the way is certainly an option, though when I had initially mentioned the idea of making a mini-codex, it wasn't going to be something that resays everything that can be found in a previous codex or simply directs you to another codex and says 'yeah, use that', but rather something along the lines of Tempus Fugitives Great Crusade and Siege of Terror codices- that is, unique units and special characters that can be used to supplement a codex's already present units (for instance, saying World Eaters can use C:SM, but should have more Tactical Squads exchanging their boltgun for a chainaxe, and a few flavorful Squad upgraded characters). So.. pretty much what Aurelius just said in a way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 10, 2010 Share Posted May 10, 2010 Does the latest C:CSM still offer 20 man marine squads? Maybe use that Codex but with certain limitations/alterations? Another idea might be to use a different codex depending on what company/formation you play with. For example, you could be playing with the World Eaters' First Company using the Deathwing rules from the C:DA or a more heavy support formation using C:SM or some sort of training mission for newer marines C:SW (Blood Claws dominated force) or whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 As another alternative to using Wolves, what about building off of the Black Templar codex? They can also field lots of assault-oriented units, and the Emperor's Champion would fit in pretty well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mordray Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Quick question regarding the BA dex... how many of you would actually make me role for Red Thirst if I said I didn't want any units to have it? the BA dex is a fairly well set option especially if you just don't 'activate' the RT or use any of the BA specific formations... such as Death Company and those... Sanguinary Guard? Oh and the priests... you know just run it like a SM codex with a BA deployment tree. Yeah that should work. Aurelius... I can't wait to start working on the Codex: Ultramarines... it'll help to know how much more deviant my [DH] Void Reavers will be... I even reworked my normal verse Void Reavers gene-seed section to leave their true origins more open... bah one at a time... back to my own work now... got the fluff of two VR characters to finish... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I'm with malika here. C:CSM is good enough to fit WE, the only downside is the lack of modern wargear. I currently run my WE with this codex, without the demonic stuff (and some of them fluffy-ed, like Icons), but I'm playing a pre heresy WE so it is not the same. Deathwing rules for the Devourers would be awesome, I must check the DA dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Ok, special Characters: -Khârn: Sicarius (see posts above) -Zhufor: Logan Grimnar (wargear is fully the same, we might go as far as to say that the axe Zhufor carries has been taken from a Space Wolf champion) -Skraal: Cassius (his wargear could symbolise the Chain axe with teeth from the Mica Dragon, storm shield and pistol) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2395886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenaur Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Wait just a minute I thought we developing a minidex for the alternate heresy and then add units and special rules for each legion, was I wrong? Because the player would probably just choose a "count as" codex to suit their own play if they wanted to play a legal game. Just thought I would throw a few of my own ideas into the hat. T'kar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leebe Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 This is very much a running with it as it goes thing so far. We're starting with what works best as 'count as' before making additional house rules and such (so we have a good stable skeleton to work with). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShoes Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I agree with T'Kar: If everybody wanted to play a legal game with the alternate heresy they would just use a counts-as-codex. This is a chance to use our creativity and make good units, history, storys, wargear and army lists based on alternate legions that have completely changed and not legal gameplay and using rules we already have! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I don't see why good fluff, histories, wargear and what not might not be represented by the existing rules. I think they could offer a great basic frame to work with. If needed some tweaks could be made here and there, but to re-write the rules entirely seems to be like a cop-out to me. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented. ;) I don't know exactly what the plan will be for the rules, if they will be released in separate PDFs and if so how (especially if we're working with "count-as" as a framework), but for now lets contemplate how to get the basics for the list through "count-as" and then see what else might be needed. During this time we could also work on additional fluff pieces on the special characters, wargear, battles, units, etc. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I agree with those that feel we should make our own rules. Even though they may not be usable in tournaments, it allows us to have complete control over what we want the armies to play like,rather than be restricted by the rules GW has made(Which IMHO aren't accurate for representing legions) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Don't forget though that the wargame and the fluff never really go together well. Many fan Codeci fail because they try to match their force too closely to the fluff and thus either become super duper powerful and pathetically weak (about 90% of the cases the former though...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201040-dornian-heresy-world-eater-counts-as-rules/#findComment-2396724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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