[Dornian Heresy] World Eater 'counts-as' rules?

[Brother Aiwass]

Some thought in the fluff-liegion sketches. I've working on this for the pre heresy WE, but in Dornian Heresy, since post heresy, WE still legion so I belive that can help.

 

Well, I belive that this need a proper thread. I've been thinking in how a legio is structured and organized. There are many holes here and I hope that with your help we can fill this holes.

 

This is a quote from this topic:

 

Thanks for the replies, I go for Century [consensus in the absence of a better term for Company divisions]

 

I'm wondering the same about the WE Captains, if they are more or less the equivalent of a Chapter Master, what is the equivalent of a captain? I guess we actually don't have any. But if we go a little forward on time to the Space Crusade/Rogue Trader era --not crusade/pre heresy era I know, is post heresy, I'm guessing the scourge era (or whatever is called) mainly because at least in Space Crusade, there are no Chapters yet, but Legiones Astartes-- We have some nice ranks:

 

Captain - In charge of the Company

Lieutenant Comander - In charge of the Century

Lieutenant - In charge of Veteran squads

Sargent - In charge of a squad

 

About the Century composition... I asume too that a Century is 1000 marines standard. So we have that in the Legion squads are larger, like in C:CSM.

 

Here is a speculation about:

 

1 Veteran squad (always deploy in demi-squads; chosen/terminators) of 20 marines.

2 Tactical squad of 20 marines each.

1 Assault squad of 20 marines (can be on foot (berzerkers) or with jet-pack (raptors)).

1 Havoc squad of 20 marines.

 

Total 100 marines.

 

This is for a Battle Century, I guess that for Assault Century the composition varies like the 8th Company of any 40k SM Chapter, also for Havoc Centuries.

 

What do you think about it?

 

Now I realized that the Veterans and Terminators is more or less the same *facepalm* so Lieutenant in charge of Veterans. Fix'd in the quote.

 

Back in the Century composition, has outcome to be the same with minor changes than a 40k SM Battle Company by chance. Some people can o can not agree with this. I would agree but not sure yet. Is clean, simple and in the GW style but...

 

I see the WE legions with heavy roman-esque martial influences --besides their Spartacus primarch-- and I'm very happy about the "Century", but always can dive just a little deep more.

 

A Roman Legio it consisted of 10 cohors (after Marius) labelled I to X, in a very similar way as how the Legiones Astartes consisted. Each cohors (company) is formed by 3 maniples (???) and each maniple is formed by 2 century, except the first cohors It consists of five double centuries. I can see a nice patter here.

 

Unlike Roman Legion, the Astartes was not armed in the same way. We have heavy weapons specialists, special weapons and tactics, scouts... Oh, like Roman Legion.

 

So, the point is, is fine now (the quoted sketch organization) or can we go for something more? I mean, Khârn's company is supposed an assault company. Maybe I'm wrong but I can asume that to be an assault company equals to lots of assault marines, with some tactical and heavy support but maybe in a minor flavour.

 

An analogy (I'm very upset of my level of english) can be that Legio=Chapter so Company = Company so Century = Squad... hum... Better if I leave the analogies to others.

 

What I'm trying to express is the fact of a Company is not Chapter-like because the ancient battles were very large scale and the Companies work together --This is a take on too-- but with some autonomous operational capability. Repeat, I guess.

 

I mean:

 

|

+8th (Assault) Company

| +Century I

| | +Veteran squad

| | |

| | +Assault squad

| | |

| | +Assault squad

| | |

| | +Tactical squad

| | |

| | +Heavy Weapons squad

| |

| +Century II

| | +Veteran squad

| | |

| | +Assault squad

| | |

| | +Assault squad

| | |

| | +Tactical squad

| | |

| | +Heavy Weapons squad

[..]

| +Century V

| | +Veteran squad

| | |

| | +Assault squad

| | |

| | +Tactical squad

| | |

| | +Tactical squad

| | |

| | +Heavy Weapons squad

| |

| +Century VI

| +Veteran squad

| |

| +Assault squad

| |

| +Tactical squad

| |

| +Heavy Weapons squad

| |

| +Heavy Weapons squad

|

+9th (Heavy Support) Company

 

... And so on. I really hope that sketch make sense of what I mean ;)

 

Any thoughts?

 

Some fixed stuff:

 

Captain - In charge of the Company

Lieutenant - In charge of the Century

Veteran Sargent - In charge of Veteran squads

Sargent - In charge of a squad

 

Still thinking and working on the "Century" composition. Discussion still too in the The Great Crusade forum. Just sharing for some help in the DH fluff.

[AGPO]

That's why I always suggest starting with a standard codex as a basis. Whenever you go for the hyper-powered fluffy kill unit of death (TM GW) you can say "yes, but is it really that much harder than Dante or Calgar?"

 

For World Eaters, I think in terms of pure force organisation Blood Angels are the best fit:

 

- There is no compulsion to field Death Company

- Furious charge can represent martial skill rather than bezerk fury

- The assualt cannon Razorbacks and Baal Predators would just look cool!

- They'd be quite fluffy too - Close fire support would be more likely to come from transports and light armour thqan dedicated seige tanks or devastator squads. It fits in better with the World Eater's mantra of getting up close and personal to avoid shelling civilians

- In terms of phlosophy the 'altverse' World Eaters are closest to pre-heresy 'normverse' Blood Angels

[Brother Aiwass]

That's why I always suggest starting with a standard codex as a basis. Whenever you go for the hyper-powered fluffy kill unit of death (TM GW) you can say "yes, but is it really that much harder than Dante or Calgar?"

 

For World Eaters, I think in terms of pure force organisation Blood Angels are the best fit:

 

- There is no compulsion to field Death Company

- Furious charge can represent martial skill rather than bezerk fury

- The assualt cannon Razorbacks and Baal Predators would just look cool!

- They'd be quite fluffy too - Close fire support would be more likely to come from transports and light armour thqan dedicated seige tanks or devastator squads. It fits in better with the World Eater's mantra of getting up close and personal to avoid shelling civilians

- In terms of phlosophy the 'altverse' World Eaters are closest to pre-heresy 'normverse' Blood Angels

 

The new Blood Angels Codex is so OP that Khârn now wears a lucky pair of BA-themed boxers on all major campaigns. That's why.

[Guest Mordray]

I just got done looking over the BA codex and here is my recommendations... I still don't like the idea of using a none WE 'dex for WE but the chaos dex is a joke for pre-heresy let alone alt-history...

 

I am not here to debate the OP/UP of the BA dex as frankly I don't care it's a GW publication so take your complaints to them. My goal is to produce a viable 'counts-as' dex for WE. To me this doesn't mean that everything within the dex is viable and thus my view that some rules and units need to be removed from the options.

 

 

Special Rules:

ATSKNF - stays

 

Combat Squads - debatable but likely stays

 

Descent of Angels - goes... just because they favor close combat doesn't mean they are expert Jumpers... this rule might be nice for the Emperor's Children though...

 

Red Thirst - don't role and thus no issue... if they force you to role... well that's just a bonus...

 

FoC:

HQ:

Captain - ...

 

Librarian - yep theses guys would still have them

 

Reclusiarch - unless I'm remembering in correctly the WE have them...

 

Seth/Khârn - I suspose this could work... just seems wrong to have legends running around though...

 

Elites:

Chaplain - ...

 

Furioso Dreadnought - ... I'll admit I really like dreads, however this really needs to be debated over as it has options that are just abnormal... Note: this should not be about OP/UP but be about the value of the unit and it's place within the WE fluff and TT army.

 

Terminators - ...

 

Techmarine - ...

 

Sternguard - I see no reason these wouldn't exist.

 

Troops:

Tactical - ...

 

Scouts - ... bah I personally disagree heavily with the use of rookies as scouts but others might/will disagree.

 

Assault - I'd strongly push for mech rather then jumpers as it just seems more fluffy.

 

Dedicated Transports

Rhino - ...

 

Razorback - ...

 

Drop Pod - ...

 

Land Raider / X - ... I see no reason the various marks of Land Raiders wouldn't be present in some form or another as the needs the produced them would still exist... I'm not too keen on the DS aspect though... just seems extra nuts...

 

Fast Attack

Vanguard - ...

 

Land Speeders - ...

 

Attack/Scout/Bikes - ...

 

 

Heavy Support

Dreadnought - ...

 

Predator - ...

 

Devastators - ...

 

Vindicator - ...

 

Whirlwind - ...

 

 

Questionable:

 

Stormraven - while this is fairly awesome and I like the concept I just can't justify it to myself. While I heard rumors that it was going to be granted to all chapters nothing seems to have come from that rumor (be nice to be wrong though...)

 

Baal Predator - to my knowledge no mention of the Baal or DH variant exists and even if it does no mention of it's use within the legions exists eliminating this historically Blood Angel's predator variant.

 

 

As you can see I removed everything born of the Blood Angels and their drives and flaws... I see no reason why those obviously BA units are needed for a WE force nor as noted within their own entries why the BA specific special Rules need to be used.

[malika666]

Hmm, I still prefer to have either the marine or Space Wolf codex. I can for example imagine the Devourers (Angron's bodyguards) to be represented by the Wolf Guard.

[Aurelius Rex]

There are obviously multiple viable options for how to represent the Dornian Heresy World Eaters, and from the thought that has gone into this, I think as long as they work for you and fit your playing style, then I would say that is good enough for me. :D

 

Having gone through the various codexes over the last few days, I would have to say that I have been most persuaded by using the Space Wolf codex rather than my initial idea of C:SM.

 

I think what has sold me personally is that their Grey Hunters look perfect in that they can take both bolters, BP and CCW - a chainaxe of course! :D As a troops choice, they are able to do close work with bolters and special weapons, and then get the extra attack in assaults unlike other tacticals. The image of pretty much the whole army with chainaxes - and being able to use them - to me fits the bill. This means that most would pile out of transport vehicles (Rhino, Tilvius or drop pod) and take on the enemy rather than using jump packs, and that JP would be restricted to the veterans (WG squads if not attached to other squads) is not a big problem to my mind... Let the Emperor's Children have the flashy Raptor packs, the WE are more down to earth anyway. :D

 

HQ:

Should be no problem to get a decent martial leader out of this lot. 'Sagas' add further potency to close combat if required. Also has access to 'librarians' and 'Chaplains' as well.

 

Elites:

WG packs as veterans, either split to reinforce other squads or as termies or with the rarer jump packs... Dreads and 'techmarines' are all fine too. Not sure about how to explain 'Wscouts' and 'Lone wolves', but if you can then all the better. :D

 

Troops:

'Grey Hunters' seem perfect as the basic WE squad - can use bolters but when they get close enough can be brutally effective with chainaxe and bolt pistol. Can be led if required by a veteran.

Less sure about the Blood Claws in general... i would think they would shepard their new recruits a little better, but lead them with a veteran and have them in support of their more experienced brethren...?

 

Fast attack:

Claw biker packs may be a better position for the new recruits - mobile firepower to support their elders, but not to bear the brunt of combat. Speeders would fill a similar role.

I can't see a place for the Skyclaws - they would look after the younglings better, and save those valuable jump packs for the veterans. Similarly the cavalry and four-legged wolf pack choices don't seem to fit with the DH WE... leave the FA slot to the speeders and bikers, I would say.

 

[Heavy Support:]

All the tanks look fine - may have to rename the LRC and LRR if they are used... what was it - Land Raider Incinerator?

The 'Long Fangs' look great as the Devastators - the Teeth of the World Eaters... a valued, but small role within the legion.

 

General:

Loads of chain-axes that can be put to good use, lots of dangerous leaders with customisable combat abilities and they can keep themselves firmly under control. They can have jump packs, but as lots of other legions - like the Emperor's Children - can have massed jump packs as their 'thing', I think it would be a nice differentiation to have every marine a danger rather.

 

Question about what to do with the more powerful weaponry - while it would be nice to give all of them chain axes, as the signature weapon, it would be required to make it clear that things like power weapons and 'frost blades' are more than just simple chain axes... bigger? Different coloured energised blades? This is more of a modelling thing really, but worth considering. :D

 

What do you think? A viable alternative?

 

Aurelius.

[malika666]

Well, the Lone Wolves could be explained by...well! I assumed the Wolf Guard would be the Devourers, but this could be changed. The Devourers are Angron's bodyguard. Whatever happened to Angron? He died/disappeared right? This could mean that the Devourers either become the bodyguards of the Company Captains or Legion Master, or perhaps they have separated themselves, meaning that they are ashamed for not having been with Angron to protect him or something. They train harder and harder to become better, but have also become loners within the Legion.

 

Just my 2 cents!

[Collinsas]

I joined just so I could reply to this section. I had a question about all the special characters: aside from Khârn who I think would have passed on to a dreadnought by now (using Bjorn’s rules), Lord Zhufor (someone stated Logan Grimnar which sounds perfect for him) who is a modern era 40k character, and would everyone else from the legion have not long since died (Ehrlen, Varren, Solax, maybe Crull) and so would it not be necessary to create new characters to fit the legion?

 

Post Note: Sorry for my drawn out sentence. This PDF has inspired me to make my first Space Marine army (I never did one because everyone has one) and I think I’m going to build them from Codex: Space Marines or Codex Blood Angels (but I think Blood Angels would be best for the Word Bearers with Chaplains as elites and army wide special rules to represent their religious fervor).

[Brother Aiwass]

@Aurelius, nice adaptation, well done I like it. Just an idea, termie-related, I'm planning to make my future Lightning Claws terminators armed with a pair of big (ork choppas) chainaxes.

 

@malika I'm thinking about Collinsas said. How much time has passed since the disappearance of Angron?

 

@Collinsas, why Khârn is dead and the others not? :( And AFAIK, Crull is not an official character, not sure about Solax.

[Collinsas]

On the Topic of Khârn: I would say he is a dreadnought now due to his Deathless moniker, and there would come a point that even Khârn could no longer continue. Also In the current 40k rule set has vary few (There is onle one that I know of; being the dreadnought Bjorn) Heresy era loyalist playable characters so it stands to reason that they would have suffered the same attrition here.

 

Solax: lexicanum

 

I would think Crull is a canon character hes from DOW winter assault (He is not too well defined, and to be honest a rather cartoony character thou), unless the Dawn of War games are not canon 40k which I’ve seen people argue both ways on that matter.

[Guest Mordray]

@Collinsas...

 

the DoW games rank in the same as Black Library books as too their canon status... individual opinion. I personally I regard DoW as cannon and most of the BL books... there are a few where I just want to chuck the codex at the writers for their blantant disregard for established codex fluff...

 

Back on Topic...

 

My issue with the BT codex is the lack of viable heavy ranged support and the blatant all or nothing focus on assault the codex seems to focus on. [DH] World Eaters to me are a more tactically flexible force which favors melee but is not bound by it.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'm liking Space Wolves codex for this. Furious Charge says "charging like a madman" to me, while counter-attack can be suggestive of a warrior who's calm in the face of a charging opponent, striking at them with quick, controlled blows.

 

The only unit which seems unfit for the Dornian Heresy-verse's World Eaters are the Blood Claws (Well, apart from the Swiftclaw/Skyclaw units, and the various wolfywolf wolves. Still, those can be easily dropped, while having an entry which represents recruits is fairly important). I've had one thought (fluffwise) on why this might be.

 

Perhaps the World Eaters view Angron's experience as a psycho-surgerized gladiator as extremely important in his development, thinking that the only way to fully understand the dangers of being consumed by your own rage is to fully experience your own overwhelming anger (compare this to the Exorcists, who prepare their recruits for fighting daemons by being possessed). Thus, new recruits are implanted with the aggression-enhancing implants, to give them this experience. It would be viewed as their true test of character, and those who revel in their frenzy and the violence too much are seen as unfit recruits for the World Eaters and are executed (the potentially high attrition rate among recruits because of this would also account for their larger than normal squad size).

 

Thus, when the Blood Claws/World Eaters recruits which managed to fight through their artificially enhanced rage have their aggression-enhancing implants removed, they have developed such a degree of self-control that they'll never submit to their own, natural anger when in battle.

 

This would explain the +2 attacks the Blood Claws get while charging and their forced charge rule while remaining true to the much more controlled, martial feel of the World Eaters.

 

Of course, this is assuming that the fluff for the World Eater's recruitment process etc. isn't set in stone (sorry if I'm just needlessly taking up space). Attaching a Wolf Guard to the unit to keep 'em under control would go a ways to maintaining the theme, and would be a much simpler way of dealing with it.

[Aurelius Rex]

I am going on the assumption that any non-dreadnought entombed loyal marine from the Heresy era is going to be long gone by the events of M41. Now when Chaos is involved... all bets are off.

 

I had not gone too deeply into specifying what had happened to Khârn the Deathless... that is a logical and compelling idea to say he has truly never died, and is now even ten thousand years still alive inside a dreadnought. :D

 

Very cool. :tu:

 

Obviously the Alternate Bjorn the Fell Handed is also still in a dreadnought, but Khârn could use his C:SW rules as a 'special' character.

 

I have the Siege of Vraks books, but have not got round to reading about the character mentioned. B)

 

@RTJ - The Blood Claws are a tricky thing to square with the [DH] WE, I agree... leaving them out, along with the four-legged wolves might be best. The idea that the aggression chips might be some kind of test to see if the aspirant can overcome the fury within is an interesting spin on it - hey, some great companies might secretly try something like that, i suppose, but given the wider legion's hatred of such practices, I would suspect that the Legion Master would be extremely unhappy with a captain he found pulling that kind of stunt on the new recruits. :devil:

 

The biker 'Blood Claws' would still find a place to me, though, as the newer recruits are assigned to speed around on bikes, guarding the flanks, providing some mobile firepower and supporting their elders when the line gets stretched too thin. :)

 

I will have to get a thread up here for the EC, RG and WB up in the next few days - although tomorrow might be tricky. Keep an eye out, as this has been a very useful and productive thread. :)

 

Regards

Aurelius

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

ah, gotcha on the Blood Claws, it does deviate a fair bit from what the world eaters feel is right. Bikers would be a reasonable representation in a counts-as dex, but I'd hope for something a bit more fitting for their theme once we begin work on fandexes (perhaps something like a squire? THey're included in squads, but usually don't straight-up fight, but assist the full marines in other ways).

 

Zhufor isn't technically a World Eater (geneseedwise, at least) in the main universe, he was forcibly inducted from a small-name loyalist chapter. Still, he's completely associated with the World Eaters, so his inclusion feels right. He's armed with an evil looking power axe, a powerfist, and a stormbolter, hence why Grimnar's switching between powerfist and frostblade fighting style fits him perfectly.

[Lazarine]

When I first read the Dornian Heresy I got more excited about the modelling prospects than I have been about anything 40K related for a long time. After discovering the thread, I started on my first World Eaters army that day. I've been basing my list off the Blood Angels codex (although I've still to play a game with the new codex), to allow me to get the numbers of assault marines I wanted, all in open-topped rhinos (has no effect in game terms except to make them faster). To cope with the rule differences between the two, I've largely ignored any specifically BA rules (and my opponents don't mind me ignoring a benefit I've paid for), with the only major concession being the inclusion of beserks, as I used to get free Death Company (although they may be reassigned as Vanguard Veterans).

 

I must admit I'm a bit wary of using the Space Wolves codex (considered and rejected it), as I didn't feel it matched the image I had of the World Eaters (don't see counter-attack or generalist troops choices), and I needed to ignore a number of the options to get there. All in all, I prefered Space Marines (particularly the 4th edition book)or Blood Angels. That said, I hope this project goes well, as the Dornian Heresy is the best thing to have happened to my W40K in a long time. Just get excited thinking about what force to start on next (thinking of using Black Templars to represent the fanatical forces of the Word Bearers, using fanatical followers as Neophytes, or Grey Knights to represent Thousand Sons).

[Araith]

I too am not very enthusiastic about using the codex: SW for the World Eaters, for several reasons. For starters, furious charge may indeed not be very representative for the World Eater mindset, but neither is counter-attack, which stands for another kind of ferocity. I rather see them as stubborn in close combat. Theirs is not ferocity or legendary skill, but discipline and control.

Then the Grey Hunters. Yes, they can be seen as tactical marines who are better in close combat. However, I don't think World Eater tactical marines should be much better in close combat. Their close combat emphasis lies in a greater use of assault squads, sometimes even equipping all squads as assault squads. With that in mind I'd rather think of the codex: SM with assault squads as troops choices, or the codex: BA.

For the same reason I don't think Grey Hunters fit do I think that the chaos space marines don't fit either.

 

So I suggest using either the Blood Angels of the Space Marines codex with some modifications.

 

Codex: SM

* since there is no Codex Astartes they wouldn't have combat squads and combat tactics - instead they could have some legion tactics special rule, like stubborn

* unique HQ choices would be restricted (so Telion and Chronus could still be taken; they're generic enough for that)

* Assault squads could be taken as troops

 

Codex: BA

* here too, no combat squads and no special characters

* Red Thirst would be lost and there would be no Honour Guards, no Sanguinary Guard, no Sanguinary Priests and no Death Company (dreadnoughts)

* here too I think Stubborn would apply, given to units instead of Red Thirst.

 

I also think we should restrict on vehicles like the Land Raider Crusaders and Redeemers, which probably would not exist in the alternative timeline.

[Raven1]

I personally think that maybe the black templars would be a good codex "counts-as"

[Honda]

Just getting caught up here, so apologies if this smacks of a little necrothreading...

 

I wanted to make a few comments/observations, primarily to reinforce some of the past thoughts:

 

1. House rules: We really minimize these as much as possible. The reason for this is that some of those who are going to build armies will eventually want to play against someone. Short of having someone locally who is engaged in the same effort, that means having rules that match up fairly well to what is already out there. We want to make sure that there are as few barriers to pick up play as we can build into this.

 

If you've ever read the BoLS or Tempus Fugitives Heresy lists, they don't step outside of the lines too much and with a fairly reasonable crowd, can be adapted for pick up play.

 

Now having said that, I do think it's Ok to come up with characters to add a little flavor, but you have to be very careful not to overpower the list. If it is possible to use war gear or equivalents to tailor make a character and at a reasonable cost, then by all means go for it. Give the list some "flavor".

 

Although it is easier to just port rules over and call someone something else than, g.e. "Logan", I think you'll be happier in the end if at the end of the effort you have something list-wise that is as unique as the fluff.

 

2. I'm Ok with C:SW for the WEs. I think it makes sense to use them as a base set of rules and then leave out what doesn't seem to fit. For example, dropping the foot Blood Claws makes sense if there doesn't seem to be a fluff reason to have WS3 BS3 troops around. I don't think people are going to object to units that are left out of a codex. It's what gets added back in that will probably cause questions.

 

3. Somebody has to be in charge. In Epic game system, where I have some experience with army lists, there usually has to be one guy/gal who makes the hard decisions. Lists designed by committees fail nine out of ten times. Although it is much more authoritative an approach vs. collaborative, you have to realize that everyone in this hobby has an opinion and consensus is admirable goal, but not very productive in the long run.

 

So, I would propose that if AR is the one who makes the decisions, then he should take input, then decide the direction and then we support that decision.

 

Keep in mind, there are 20 of these that have to be developed. A methodology for doing that needs to be put in place otherwise it will be difficult to ensure consistency across all of them.

 

Cheers,

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Suggestion: use Codex: Space Marines with the following special rule being an upgrade for HQ choices. It is simply included in their cost and not lost if they are slain.

 

Cost: 35 pts*

Bloodline of Angron- replace Combat Tactics with Furious Charge USR. Additionally, any tactical squad may exchange its bolters for close combat weapons. If this option is take the squad may take a second special weapon in place of its heavy weapon options.

 

This is a fairly simple rule that remains fluffy. Even if your opponent refuses to play it can be changed to a Codex: Blood Angels force with (relatively) little change in point cost or the way the army plays.

 

 

I really have no idea on how to cost this. Ideas? Suggestions?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Why don't you just use regular Codex: Chaos Sapce Marines?

 

Give the standard troops Icon of Chaos Glory (to represent their martial discipline) and don't use daemons or defilers. And rop the crazed rule for dreadnoughts.

 

This might be a problem if you feel the need for drop pods, and if so I duly apoligize.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Why don't you just use regular Codex: Chaos Sapce Marines?

 

Give the standard troops Icon of Chaos Glory (to represent their martial discipline) and don't use daemons or defilers. And rop the crazed rule for dreadnoughts.

 

This might be a problem if you feel the need for drop pods, and if so I duly apoligize.

Droppods and dreadnoughts are two of the reasons, but also all the new loyalist wargear such as stormshields, thunderhammers, relic blades, different heavy weapons, landspeeders, new landraider variants, razorbacks, everything that makes loyalists different from traitors, etc.