Venerable and Ironclad

[Zynk Kaladin]

If I were to take dreadnoughts in an all comers list, which one would be better? Venerable or Ironclad? What overall plan of attack and tactics should be used for either?

 

I'm trying to get a feel for other types of dreadnoughts to see which one would be more fun and efficient. I usually just take a regular one, but I'd like to buy or convert a venerable or ironclad.

 

Ideas?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Venerable Dreadnoughts cost too much for being protected in only AV 12, albeit w/ re-rolls.

Ironclads are cheaper and AV 13 = win.

 

Of course they need Drop Pods to prevent them getting shot :D

[Giga]

I'm of the opinion that venerable and ironclad dreads have no purpose in an all-comers list (not in a truly competitive one, anyway).

 

A venerable dread with multimelta, heavy flamer, and extra armor costs 180 pts. The price goes up if you replace the multimelta with something else. This makes them too expensive considering the fact their kill potential is rather pathetic (they have a petty 3 attacks on charge and only a single long-range weapon). They supposedly have great survivability, but this is an actual illusion because dreadnought are suffer from being immobilized and/or losing their DCCW so much that unless your opponent keeps rolling 1s and 2s on the vehicle damage chart you might as well forget about your dread ever doing anything noticeable.

 

Ironclad dreadnoughts are also pretty weak in my book. Their AV13 doesn't mean jack when you consider all the melta people are packing these days. Their short range and slow movement is also a liability, especially when combined with the fact their close combat prowess are quite underwhelming (a 145 pts walker that has 4 WS4 I4 attacks on charge, *yawn*).

 

The most competitive dreadnought variant IMHO is the humble rifleman dread. This is a standard dread with dual TL-autocannons. You take two of these guys (they work great in pairs), keep them in the backfield, and use their extremely reliable shooting to take out light vehicles and rain wounds on heavy infantry and vehicles. Their AV12 means they can also do an okay tarpitting job on horde infantry, and if your opponent isn't particularly lucky with his powerfist rolls you can also use them to tarpit MEQ squads. The rifleman dreads work great in 5th edition because of all the light vehicles people are using, and because they're cheap and very very reliable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thankfully, GW is aware of the mistakes they made when they designed 5th ed vanilla dreadnoughts. This is why the new wolves have all those special upgrades for their dreads, and why the new blood angels have a whole new generation of awesome 5th edition dreadnoughts. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait a while for the new vanilla dex (a few years, at the least), but I'm pretty sure that, once it does come out, it's gonna have a whole new generation of uber-killy dreadnoughts.

[Fatuous]

Have to agree that the ven dreads are too pricey, but vanilla dreads are pretty awesome with just a heavy flamer upgrade.

 

2 ven dreads = 3 vanilla dreads...........

 

Out of the 2 you mention, I'd prob take the Iron clad tho.

[Giga]

Unless you're running a mass shooty army, taking 3 dreadnoughts of any type is a generally bad idea because they take up ELITES slots. We need those slots for awesome things like th/ss terminators and sternguard.

[Fatuous]

Hmm sorry double post:(

[Fatuous]

Ahhh yes........

 

I keep forgetting that I'm in the minority that take a MOF, so that isn't an issue for me, but need to bare that in mind when responding :)

[ShinyRhino]

I like using a pair of VenDreads to back up the rest of my force. One has EA, AssCan, and DCCW+HF; the other has a TLLC and a ML. The TLLC Dread makes a great firebase with BS5, rerolled on the lascannon. The other moves forward while supporting the rest of my force.

They're incredibly hard to kill off, because of the reroll. An Immobilized, weaponless Dread still doesn't give up a KP at the end of the game, and can still contest an objective.

The low number of attacks a Dread has can actually be an advantage when tarpitting an otherwise useful unit. Lock up that 50-man IG Blob that didn't buy grenades. Do it! The trick is closing ground with them beforehand. I use a screen of bikers in that situation, or my assault squad. If you really want to hold the Blob in place while the Dread gets that last turn of movement in, charge with the assault marines or bikers, and then use Combat Tactics to autofail the Morale after your Dread is locked in. The Blob can't sweep them, as they're still engaged with the Dread.

 

Of course, any Dread can do that, not just a Venerable. As said, i like them for the WS/BS boost, and the reroll of damage results. I don't typically lose my VenDreads to random Krak shots like I would with a standard Dread.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Ah, ok. Looks like I don't have to spend my money on a new dread after all :rolleyes:

 

I love the TLAC dreads so I think I'll just stick with them. I had no clue I could assault with a 2xTLAC dread... even though now that I think of it why wouldn't I be able to? I might have to try that after I'm done popping my enemy's vehicles. As always, thanks guys.

 

Now I just need an Aegis Defense set for those TLACs...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You CAN assault with a Rifleman, just don't do it to MEQs or monstrous creatures. You're AV12, S6, and don't ignore armor saves. For me, assaulting with a 100% gun dread is a last resort option.

[Jackelope King]

Yeah, I don't bother with Ironclads in competitive all-comers lists, or with Venerable dreads at all. My Bikers, however, are backed up by a trio of Rifleman Dreads (I need solid fire support in that list more than I do TH/SS termies or more close-range rapid-fire action from Sternguard). I also have to admit that dirt-standard Dreads aren't half-bad buys, and I don't object to upgrading them to MM/HF too much (though they usually require drop pods, and they get expensive fast that way), but the Rifleman is far and away the superstar of the Dread family.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't particularly think Venerable Dreads are not competetive, they just have to be in the right list. A list with no "uber" unit or expensive what me nots can afford one quite easily.

 

I think Ironclads could be competetive if they were not used as a suicide unit by players. I would use the threat they pose as a vacuum to suck in the units with melta weapons and draw longer range firepower away from the all important Rhinos and the more vulnerable Landspeeder by footslogging across the battlefield.

 

I'm even tempted to throw a Hurricane Bolter on the thing, but I wouldn't want to lose the extra attack!

[Giga]

I'm even tempted to throw a Hurricane Bolter on the thing

Why would you wanna do that?

 

3 TL-ed bolters are hardly worth it on a dreadnought.

[Gaz1858]

I love dreads and have found them to be very effective.

 

In a recent tourney i had one Venerable with assault cannon, 1 ironclad and a dread with TLLC. THe ironclad took out a Land Raider. The dread ended up in combat with 4GK Termies, one of which had a Thunder Hammer and a GKGM. Killed the GKGM and 2 Termies before being taken out itself. THe Venerable took out another 5 man unit of GK Termies, again another with a TH.

 

In the same tourney my ironclad took on three killa kans in combat, was left immobilised but killed all three.

 

I believe Dreads are fantastic and well worth the Elites choice. I also run a MOTF so i will be taking 6 dreads.

 

im even tempted to throw a Hurricane Bolter on the thing, but I wouldn't want to lose the extra attack!

 

I have considered this as losing 1 attack in cc for the benefit of three 24" bolter shots with re-rolls or 6 12" bolter shots with re-rolls makes it good for taking out light infantry. However it just looks loads better with two fists!!!

[Captain Idaho]

I'm even tempted to throw a Hurricane Bolter on the thing

Why would you wanna do that?

 

3 TL-ed bolters are hardly worth it on a dreadnought.

 

The only reason I can think is getting in 12" and having 6 twin linked shots. More of a desire for the thing to do something whilst foot slogging, but I guess 2 Hunter Killer Missiles would be a better buy eh!

[Giga]

Hunter-killer missiles would definitely be a better buy. Also, a heavy flamer on the DCCW is always a better option if you wanna shoot before charging.

[chapter master 454]

Thankfully, GW is aware of the mistakes they made when they designed 5th ed vanilla dreadnoughts. This is why the new wolves have all those special upgrades for their dreads, and why the new blood angels have a whole new generation of awesome 5th edition dreadnoughts. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait a while for the new vanilla dex (a few years, at the least), but I'm pretty sure that, once it does come out, it's gonna have a whole new generation of uber-killy dreadnoughts.

 

Sorry what? awesome 5th edition dreads for BA, lets just say they are BS and I don't mean ballistic skill ok. Ironclad dreadnoughts are nice looking but it's funny you know, I seem to remember that they need a drop pod to get into CC where the AV13 becomes useful, strange how I find so far I am yet to deal with one that flails useless at me once I'm done with it: IE immobilised. Hell I only kill ironclads if there's a lack of better targets or I want an easy KP. The BA dreads are HORRIBLE, T-Herrible beyond anything I've seen, I mean I like being fluffy but jesus, no need to make them feather dusters.

 

Oh wow blood talons, shame that once one so ker-putt the rule no long applys. Same if I immobilised you. Dreadsnoughts ARE NOT CC walkers, they are the peak of overall walker combat, they can shoot well, they can CC well. They can outshoot the choppy and out chop the shooty.

 

Between Ironclad and venerables? allcomers your best with venerables IMO. Ironclad is such a horrible dreadnought along with onl the furioso being the only thing worse than it while the death company barely even regisiters as better if only by a margin of .001. Venerables are better because they pack increased WS and BS along with their special venerable rule which I can tell you will turn aside a lascannon better than any piddly AV13 ironclad or furiosos does. Space wolves Ive yet tosee any of their dreads but the way they went on I'd be surprised if they even kept dreadnoughts at all. Called something like 'hangover stabiliser' or something. What was the song again? 'One step forward and two steps back' however in this case it would be 'one dreadnought forward and two dreads back, this kinda nerf will forever last!'

[Giga]

BA dreads are great in that they're priced accordingly for what they do and that their threat factor is high enough to actually force an opponent to deal with them.

 

If a standard or venerable dread reaches combat, he will at most kill 3 models on the first turn, and 2 models in every subsequent turn. BA dreads with blood talons can potentially destroy 30 man units. Even if you aren't lucky, the dread will on average kill 6 infantry on charge, which is great against MEQ, considering the fact the said dread costs 140 pts with EA, has WS6 and front armor 13. Having two of those running alongside the rest of your army has the potential to become an excellent target-saturation/killiness tactic.

 

The magna grapple enables a dreadnought to affect the battle in a way that no other marine unit can - by literally pulling enemy transports full of assault units AWAY from your army. In addition, it means the dread itself is a far greater threat to the enemy since the grapple effectively gives it a much greater potential charge range.

 

Also, there are flying dreadnoughts now. They cost 175 pts base, but considering you also get psychic hood, front AV13, force weapon, and WS6, I'd say it's considerably better and a bigger threat then our regular venerable dreads.

 

Finally, for some reason, they get their rifleman dreadnoughts 5 points cheaper then vanilla marines.

 

The point of this post is; BA dreadnoughts really are considerably better then vanilla dreads. If anything, the sheer threat factor will be enough to keep many players on edge, and the boost to their overall killiness means they'll justify their points when they do get into close combat.

Dreadsnoughts ARE NOT CC walkers, they are the peak of overall walker combat, they can shoot well, they can CC well.

Lol, what?

 

Defilers and soul grinders are way, way better in both shooting AND close combat. And, as awesome as dreads look, defilers & soul grinders look better.

[chapter master 454]

defiler: oversized target thats far too hard to hide therefor anti-tank fire can easily target it's battle cannon totting rear-end.

Soul grinder: faced them only in the most cheesey list of all time so I can't comment

 

Listen, if I see a librarian dreadnought I go: 'Ugh, reeks of fan service' because the thing is so silly. For one BA dreads to me are craptastic, however being someone of earth army preference (hell I wrote an article on it! -shameless self plug!-) who went to BA because their tanks are better for some stupid reason (what they find? 5th gear?) however I was somewhat annoyed because while I know I can't eat my cake and have it at the same time I still feel that the complete removal of the MotF was unneeded along with venerable dreadnoughts as well (even then, just give my my dread back! thats all, I don't ask for the TFC nor MotF hugely but bring back GOOD dreadnoughts).

 

And venerable dreadnoughts too are fairly priced, have you seen my duo Kayvaan and Ventris (named AFTER the respective leaders, had their names since 4th edition codex at min) because so far I am yet to meet any other walker out do them. Shoulder to shoulder they march with the support of my MotF and his crew of servitors and I can tell you now; they do far more than any other dreadnought I've seen. You could argue any dread is good with the repair crew but these guys use them far more: they are having a game effect from turn 1 with their shooting and continue to do so until they are brutally wounded but alive at turn 6. Where as your furiosos and llibby dreads are all moot if my missle launchers land even ONE immobilised result because I don't care if you have a techmarine repairing them, they just lost their turn of movement meaning they don't hit me until turn 3-4 if they are lucky to survive. As for the blood talons: they are on paper filthy looking but in practice...sorry what I forgot to ask what size of fish your one armed dreadnought caught. One they are immobilised or lose ONE talon thats their weapons effective gone, you now have a str6 dreadnought which is less use than str10 one that will now precede to show why shooting and CC need to be seemlessly used to win fights.

 

Dreadnoughts are meant to be you guys who walk forward, blast apart tough parts of the enemy with ranged before wading into the survivors to mop them up. They are NOT meant to be CC machines, it hurts me so much to hear all the whinging over venerables and normals being sub-par when ironclads are the true trash. I can't express I dismay with typing, I would melt ever last ironclad to the ground if I got the chance and would remove ironclads from C:SM given even a slight chance. As for furiosos, they only remain because I give them credit for being fluffy and second off: may as well give you the most pointless dread of all time. here's your dread, here's your drop pod, enjoy being predictable to a :cuss T.

[Gaz1858]

I dont think he likes Ironclads :cuss

[minigun762]

One thing to consider, Codex Marines have access to the Combi-Predator which can fulfil the same basic role as the RifleDread. This gives you some flexibility in choosing your Elites and Heavies and still having long range anti-tank/transport covered.

 

I feel that one of the strongest uses of Dreads is with a Drop Pod. Forcing your opponent to re-route his army to handle an immediate threat is a smart move and might buy the rest of your army additional time to concentrate on what remains.

[Fatuous]

Agreed. This does work well, and get them in to melta range nice and quickly. It does often end up beign a suicide dread tho.....

[Koremu]

The magna grapple enables a dreadnought to affect the battle in a way that no other marine unit can - by literally pulling enemy transports full of assault units AWAY from your army. In addition, it means the dread itself is a far greater threat to the enemy since the grapple effectively gives it a much greater potential charge range.

I'm less than impressed by the Magna Grapple. Given that you have to forego Running with your (Fleet) DC Dread and have to roll both hit and vs. AV... not really worth the 15 pts TBH

[chapter master 454]

I dont think he likes Ironclads ;)

 

Whatever gave you that idea? :D

 

I would agree, as a BA player now, the magna grapple appeals as a nice fun toy to use but in all terms has little use at all (however being able to FALCON PUNCH an opponent 12" away is a fun image!). My main gripe about dreads in BA is that they are thrown to the side as if they are just there because they have always been. One weapon of interesting idea is the frag cannon, an heavy2 template weapon is an extremely unique idea as it has no AP but has rending. A very intrigueing weapon that I may employ to turn furiosos into a useful tool of war.

 

And just so everyone knows: the reason I hate ironclads and any other dreadnought with TWO DCCWs or just two CCWs is against the grain on what marines do. The idea of a dreadnought is to be the exemplar and perfect icon of the marines being jack of all trades. Dreadnoughts can now be made into any unit type you require; infantry support, tank support, bunker busters, cover clearers, line breakers but they always retain deadliness even at range which makes them a threat to any opponent. The dreadnoughts using two close combat weapons to me are wasted weapons. I personally rarely field the fabled rifleman dreadnought ether however it's use is somewhat greater than a CC dread but I can see their place, both CC dreads and rifleman. However as an Earth player I have looked at the dread as the main delivery system of counter charge and ranged support along with tarpit.

 

So in a nutshell for everyone: I can see tactical value in planting that drop pod or three with a dread or three who all look extremely annoyed about get a pale of cold water to the face before being fired at a planet in a pod. I see the value in rifleman dread who put down blistering firepower at the opponents line while your army advances under their unrelenting salvos and barrages. However I see both easy targets to deal with, something that I find somewhat disheartening. The purpose of my venerable dreadnoughts who should be standard issue for ANY earth army IMHO is several things: they cover a flank with their march, they tar pit or destroy flankers, they help support troops with their fusilade of fire and finally they can charge any uber unit or unit lacking CC-AT weapons and lock them up for the rest of the game turns or finish them off with their charge.

 

For reference, I roll my dreads in pairs without question and the tactic works well. It is one I mourn with BA's rather rubbish dreads who I will need to see if I can salvage them in any way if possible. Return them to elites, return the venerable dreadnought to BA codex I would be 100% happy without question and wouldn't whinge any more.

[Captain Idaho]

One thing to consider, Codex Marines have access to the Combi-Predator which can fulfil the same basic role as the RifleDread. This gives you some flexibility in choosing your Elites and Heavies and still having long range anti-tank/transport covered.

 

I feel that one of the strongest uses of Dreads is with a Drop Pod. Forcing your opponent to re-route his army to handle an immediate threat is a smart move and might buy the rest of your army additional time to concentrate on what remains.

 

I agree a Combi-Predator can perform the same roll as a Rifleman, and both have their place in lists (one being more mobile and in Elites whilst the other being slightly more flexible, able to move faster if need be and a higher AV to the fore).

 

But I disagree with Drop Podding Dreads being the best use of Dreads. I have a disdain for suicide units in Space Marines armies, as nothing is so cheap that you can afford to lose them. Tit for tat won't win games! I do acknowledge there is scope for good use of a such a tactic, of course, but there are plenty of other options for Dreads that play to their strengths (solid shooting platforms that are threatening in assault etc).

 

I do enjoy using Dreads, but I don't think the BA Dreads are head and shoulders above Codex Dreads. Their Librarian has massive killing potential in assault of course, but then there is a build in cost we haven't considered in comparing their cost to SM Venerables:

 

The Venerable Dread operates at range and can be used for a strong counter assault too, which means the opponent has to close the distance to use melta weapons, braving the guns of the rest of your army etc. Longer ranged weapons will struggle to bring it down if you position it right, especially as the re-roll on the damage table is very forgiving.

 

However, for all the killing potential of a Librarian Dread, it has to be up close to cause this damage and doesn't have the benefit of forcing opponents to re-roll on the damage table and operate within melta range. This makes it more vulnerable.

 

Swings and round abouts eh.