Venerable and Ironclad

[minigun762]

See I don't believe that using a Dread in a pod automatically makes it a suicide unit, but at the same time I don't believe you should be afraid to field a unit because it might be killed. That would put a big limit on what you could bring to the table.

 

For Chaos, Termicide is the typical example of a "tit for tat" unit and it works because its usually cheaper then its intended target.

But I don't think you have to apply the same kind of logic for a Dread in a Pod. You aren't just exchanging one unit for another, you're opening up another front for the enemy to contend with. Against alot of opponents this can throw a wrench in their plans. Units that are forced to target the closest squad are suddenly turning around to shoot at something behind them. Assault based armies have to send part of their army back to deal with it, thereby slowing down or thinning out the massive assault they normally rely on. Even against shooty armies, a Dread might be able to soak up enough firepower to spare your Rhinos from getting shot up as you cross the board.

 

In the end, its too black and white to look at it as swapping one unit for another. Instead think of the options that it can present to you beyond lining up and walking forward guns blazing like most walkers do.

[Captain Idaho]

Opening up another front with a deep striking Dread (or 2) is definitely probably the primary benefit of drop podding Dreads, but I would prefer not to generally as I like my Dreads for their heavy weapons and relentless advance so it's not for me.

 

Incidently what I don't like about tit-for-tat tactics with SM/CSM armies (like "termicide") is the game is not as simple as using XXpts to remove XXpts. There are other considerations, like that expensive Leman Russ you just removed might seem like a good trade for your 115pts Termicide attack, but then the opposing army is not going to be missing that expense as much since IG have so much cheaper stuff. 115pts hurts alot more in an army where our basic squads clog in around 170-230pts (though cheaper if you want but then they aren't very useful).

 

Also it doesn't take into account other factors like reserve rolls, scatter, failure, granting an opposing unit to counter charge and gain extra inches movement etc. These things lead me to consider 100-odd pts better used elsewhere in solid investments. If it was more reliable or the average cost our units was less then I would consider it a decent trade but as it stands I dislike the move.

 

Which brings us neatly back to DP Dreads. The SMs need as many points as possible for firepower and AV on the board, taking a Dread adds both and counter charge capacity. This represents better value for us. Taking Dreads in a DP means we are taking points away from the rest of the army as you already have a use of those Dreads you optimised for. Consider that most players hide in their transports, that Dread is going to be used to pop a transport first and then get counter attacked with melta the turn after. I don't like that of 150+pts (depending on the Dread).

[Zynk Kaladin]

Hmm... So, are dreads really worth it then? They seem like a huge point sink any way I could field them. I was going to do more rifle dreads, but I agree that the combi-pred is better suited for them.

[chapter master 454]

Hmm... So, are dreads really worth it then? They seem like a huge point sink any way I could field them. I was going to do more rifle dreads, but I agree that the combi-pred is better suited for them.

 

Dreads are anything but point sinks, the rifleman dreadnought is quite a scarey opponent (a volley of str7 re-roll to hits is quite powerful and something you can't get from a predator). The reason I went to BA was the fast tanks, while an earth player I prefer limiting my handicaps and predators who can re-angle and fire from a fresh position with little effort is a powerful tool. (so far though I am yet to have an assault unit gain red thirst..devastors get all the luck huh?).

 

Any dreadnought can be used effectively however they, IMO, form a more solid support role if on their own however can be used to attack more readily if in pairs or trios (which I do, no dread takes to the field under my watch without a partner). Dreadnoughts are your swish army knife unit which can and should use every weapon it has when it fights, march across the field with it's suppressive fire causing pain and when it reachs the enemy: charge. The idea behind them is to erode the enemy's lines while causing a complete stall on one section of their lines.

Besides what's more devastating than 8 assault cannon shots at BS5 punching into a unit every turn? (heck, even tanks get hurt by it!)

[Giga]

Hmm... So, are dreads really worth it then? They seem like a huge point sink any way I could field them. I was going to do more rifle dreads, but I agree that the combi-pred is better suited for them.

Rifleman dreadnoughts are the only really viable ones (as in, tournament-viable) in my opinion.

 

In the BA dex, I'm guessing all those cool close-combat dreadnoughts can be really great, too. We're yet to see how people use them in tournaments, though. The BA dex is still too young to say for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

Combipredators are great, but they're very different from rifleman dreadnoughts. Riflemans can move around every turn to get better lanes of fire, can walk behind rhinos to give themselves a cover save while still having clear line of sight to their targets, and they can be used to tarpit units in close combat. The combipredators being static and unable to defend themselves from assault means they rely a lot on careful positioning and being away from the enemy. Their shooting is also a lot less reliable then rifleman dread shooting, since none of it is twinlinked.

 

On the other hand the combipredators cost 5 points less, take up a heavy support slot (which, as far as I'm concerned, is on a lot lower demand then elites slots), and have lascannons, which can inflict instant death and reliably wound monstrous creatures.

 

Basically, both units are great. It's up to preference, and what your list needs. The new BA once again got it better, since their riflemans cost less, and are heavy support.

[Captain Idaho]

Any dreadnought can be used effectively however they, IMO, form a more solid support role if on their own however can be used to attack more readily if in pairs or trios (which I do, no dread takes to the field under my watch without a partner). Dreadnoughts are your swish army knife unit which can and should use every weapon it has when it fights, march across the field with it's suppressive fire causing pain and when it reachs the enemy: charge. The idea behind them is to erode the enemy's lines while causing a complete stall on one section of their lines.

Besides what's more devastating than 8 assault cannon shots at BS5 punching into a unit every turn? (heck, even tanks get hurt by it!)

 

I agree whole heartadly. When you play against Dreads you sure worry about them and know what you don't want them to be doing, so bare that in mind when including them in your own list.

[Meatman]

I've thought up a relatively interesting use for a venerable.

 

Assault cannon, missile launcher, extra armour.

 

Those 2 weapons because they are flexible enough to use on infantry or vehicles, and make good use of the BS5, extra armour to still move if I get a 2 on the damage chart (re-roll or not).

 

200 points that can damage anything (even AV14, albeit with luck), and can avoid being stun locked. What do you think? Is that a good way of using them?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Kind of, yeah. I prefer to use Vens with a DCCW though, 'cause with that WS5 you'll hit MEQs on a 3+. I do have a Hellfire-pattern with twinlas and ML, but that only sees table-time rarely. My main Ven has a MM, DCCW, HF to get a 2+ hitting melta and the 3+ to hit in CC.

[Brother Gaius]

I used a five dread list last game, 2 Ironclads w HF/MG, 2 Ven w assault cannon/ML, and a Dread w TLLC/ML. The Ven's were definately worth the points, mulching Boyz and Kans with pretty good results.

[kingblkgrunt]

i just yesterday ran a list focused on two master of the forge with conversion beamers with 4 venerable and an ironclad backed by a land raider redeemer fill with thunder hammer termys. meanwhile i used snipers in my bolster defenses with camo cloaks for 2 up cover saves and just marched down the middle of the battle field. beat a supposedly un beatable list and one venerable in particular died 9 times in the coarse of the game and was stll standing when it was all said and done. So dont say venerable rule isnt worth it cause i strongly disagree.

[Giga]

200 points that can damage anything (even AV14, albeit with luck), and can avoid being stun locked. What do you think? Is that a good way of using them?

Or, you could get a dakkapredator and a combipredator for 5 points more. Would offer you a lot more anti-infantry AND a whole lot more anti-tank.

 

Also, assault cannon and missile launcher don't really mesh together too well. One is 48" range, the other is 24". Not exactly the happiest combo, I think. Better go for TL-autocannon + missile launcher, if you want long-range shooting.

[minigun762]

Also, assault cannon and missile launcher don't really mesh together too well. One is 48" range, the other is 24". Not exactly the happiest combo, I think. Better go for TL-autocannon + missile launcher, if you want long-range shooting.

 

Or go with Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher. The ranges are closer together and the weapons have enough overlap for targets that they can work well for killing light/heavy infantry, MCs or light/medium armor. Plus its cheaper then TL Lascannon.

[Giga]

The plasmacannon doesn't really take the advantage of BS5, though. :/

[Captain Idaho]

I think it does. I played someone who hit all the time with it, because whenever it scattered odds were that he would scatter 7 or less, resulting in the template moving very little or not at all. Squads of infantry are always prime targets so a little scatter doesn't hurt.

 

Of course it would be better on a normal Dread whilst a Venerable favours a weapon without re-rolls like Assault Cannons.

[chapter master 454]

200 points that can damage anything (even AV14, albeit with luck), and can avoid being stun locked. What do you think? Is that a good way of using them?

Or, you could get a dakkapredator and a combipredator for 5 points more. Would offer you a lot more anti-infantry AND a whole lot more anti-tank.

 

Also, assault cannon and missile launcher don't really mesh together too well. One is 48" range, the other is 24". Not exactly the happiest combo, I think. Better go for TL-autocannon + missile launcher, if you want long-range shooting.

 

And pre-tell how you get more for you money? While yes I will not down-rate preds (heck I take both preds and venerable dreads!) they have a very one track usage: area denial. When your opponent sees a predator whose LoS covers a lane that is the quickest route to your army, he becomes very inclined to find other ways round so while a pred hurts when it fires; your use of it should cause enemy unit displacement which you use to full effect via other units covering other approachs (this is earth's main trick: while it does not move itself, it often moves the enemy into places where it can contain and keep threats at bay).

 

Dreads therefor form the lynchpin of my area denial tactics: they are the main unit that deals with the displaced enemy while predator fire targets ANYTHING it can (and this is what you want; firing for a lack of better target because those targets are now having to run up an different approach to avoid it's fire). The dreads become a serious problem them because in the same light they are avoiding your preds, chances are their heavy weapons can't draw effective line of sights on you dreads without giving a 4+ cover save or not being able to see them at all. While it can be said here that ironclads and furiosos can be used here, I would not advise it. For one if your dreads suddenly find a lucky melta bomb immobilsing them your interceptor just got stopped and can't do anything with it's two DCCWs whereas the ranged weapon can still hurt and hamstring alot of units kicking.

 

As for making use of the BS and WS5 on venerables: just because you have doesn't mean you need to use it. Even if it has a range of 48", you don't always need to use that extreme range, I would imagine a nice nimble rifleman dread covering all the other approachs that a pred would find hard to deal with quite an effective tool. I just prefer the DCCW because it helps create a line-breaker unit as well. Might be able to take 2 preds for one venerable, but one venerable can out move a pred easily.

 

Dreadnoughts points are higher also for better all round armour as well along with the fact they can move and shoot just as well as a pred but also assault with a str10 weapon. Oh and venerables can 'lol-hax' your lascannon's damage to nothing more than 1s everytime (I like the buff on venerable rule, used to be a once per turn deal. Now it's ANY result. That doesn't even need a re-rol on my result table!)

[minigun762]

The plasmacannon doesn't really take the advantage of BS5, though. :/

 

Not full advantage but its also not wasted either.

[Giga]

@ chapter master 454

 

The entire area-denial philosophy is all nice and fine, and the fact that dreads can circumvent that is also great.

 

However, no matter how you take it, having a combipred and a dakkapred (meaning 6 heavy bolter shots, 2 lascannon shots, and 4 autocannon shots, all at BS4, per turn) flat out beats anything a similarly priced venerable dreadnought can do. The preds may be immobile, and the enemy may get cover saves, but the preds are still superior due to the simple fact they provide a lot more for the same price.

 

Which is why I stand by my statement that the best dreadnoughts in vanilla dex are the riflemen. These dreads combine reliable long-range firepower with a walker's ability to move 6" and shoot all its guns per turn, which is probably the biggest factor that makes them so great.

Not full advantage but its also not wasted either.

The way I see it, if you buy a venerable dread, you're mainly paying for its damage chart reroll, and its WS/BS5. Hence, keeping this dread far from the front lines, with a gun that doesn't really rely on its BS, is IMHO a waste of its points. You could do the exact same job with a standard dreadnought, for much fewer points.

 

The thing venerable dreadnoughts are good for is providing close-quarters/assault support to forward elements, mainly because of their reroll and the fact they hit most stuff on 3+ in close combat. Keeping them in the back is IMHO a waste of their potential.

[chapter master 454]

@ chapter master 454

 

The entire area-denial philosophy is all nice and fine, and the fact that dreads can circumvent that is also great.

 

However, no matter how you take it, having a combipred and a dakkapred (meaning 6 heavy bolter shots, 2 lascannon shots, and 4 autocannon shots, all at BS4, per turn) flat out beats anything a similarly priced venerable dreadnought can do. The preds may be immobile, and the enemy may get cover saves, but the preds are still superior due to the simple fact they provide a lot more for the same price.

 

Which is why I stand by my statement that the best dreadnoughts in vanilla dex are the riflemen. These dreads combine reliable long-range firepower with a walker's ability to move 6" and shoot all its guns per turn, which is probably the biggest factor that makes them so great.

Not full advantage but its also not wasted either.

The way I see it, if you buy a venerable dread, you're mainly paying for its damage chart reroll, and its WS/BS5. Hence, keeping this dread far from the front lines, with a gun that doesn't really rely on its BS, is IMHO a waste of its points. You could do the exact same job with a standard dreadnought, for much fewer points.

 

The thing venerable dreadnoughts are good for is providing close-quarters/assault support to forward elements, mainly because of their reroll and the fact they hit most stuff on 3+ in close combat. Keeping them in the back is IMHO a waste of their potential.

 

We clearly have different views and I agree that preds have superior firepower (never said they didn't, infact I said they do because people like to avoid them for it) but the key thing is synergy. Rifleman dreads are nice and all but in equal spite of the furiosos and ironclads short comings in ranged combat, a rifleman dreadnought while something I would field few and far between unlike ironclads which I would never field, I prefer having a veristile unit that can do what I need. I will agree that rifleman venerables are quite a wasteful choice (but in same like, so is ironclads because of their CC power needing to get close enough) and that normal dreads should take this option if you need something of a solid ranged support but don't have any heavy supports left. HOWEVER I still stand by fielding dreads wth the traditional DCCW and a ranged weapon, it's not broken in any way so therefor does not need changed nor fixed. (If walker vs. walker combat was more climatic I may be inclined but since it all comes down to one or two blows and doesn't feel like much).

[Giga]

I will agree that rifleman venerables are quite a wasteful choice

What are you talking about? Rifleman dreadnoughts are awesome. Their shooting is very reliable because it's all TL-ed, they can keep moving and shooting while hiding behind rhinos to get cover saves, they're cheap, and they can tarpit things in assault. They can reliably wound MCs, kill light vehicles, and inflict wounds on heavy infantry. Their only disadvantage is that they take up an elites slot, which can be annoying if, like me, you're a fan of both sternguard and terminators.

 

(just to be in the clear, by a rifleman dreadnought I mean a standard dreadnought with 2x TL-autocannons)

I still stand by fielding dreads wth the traditional DCCW and a ranged weapon

Not cost-effective IMHO. That sort of dreadnought isn't good at shooting (only one weapon for 105+ points and an elites slot), and is also quite pathetic in close combat (3 attacks on charge, at WS4). Finally, such a dread suffers considerably from pretty much every roll on the vehicle damage chart.

 

The ironclad, while nothing to write home about, is at least cost-effective. For 270 pts you can get two of them and have them move and run alongside the rhinos in order to get some serious target saturation going, much the same way as you would do it with dual vindicators.

[chapter master 454]

I will agree that rifleman venerables are quite a wasteful choice

What are you talking about? Rifleman dreadnoughts are awesome. Their shooting is very reliable because it's all TL-ed, they can keep moving and shooting while hiding behind rhinos to get cover saves, they're cheap, and they can tarpit things in assault. They can reliably wound MCs, kill light vehicles, and inflict wounds on heavy infantry. Their only disadvantage is that they take up an elites slot, which can be annoying if, like me, you're a fan of both sternguard and terminators.

 

(just to be in the clear, by a rifleman dreadnought I mean a standard dreadnought with 2x TL-autocannons)

I still stand by fielding dreads wth the traditional DCCW and a ranged weapon

Not cost-effective IMHO. That sort of dreadnought isn't good at shooting (only one weapon for 105+ points and an elites slot), and is also quite pathetic in close combat (3 attacks on charge, at WS4). Finally, such a dread suffers considerably from pretty much every roll on the vehicle damage chart.

 

The ironclad, while nothing to write home about, is at least cost-effective. For 270 pts you can get two of them and have them move and run alongside the rhinos in order to get some serious target saturation going, much the same way as you would do it with dual vindicators.

 

Not cost effective? tell you what, say that to me when you've got other things to worry about. I think we are starting to get vacuum here in that we are forgetting something of several other factors which can ether multiple their power or redice it. I personal always run a MotF with power weapon and 5 tech servitors behind my venerables and there's also my other 3 predators you have to think about who also have their own techmarine with 5 servitors and full harness running around like a ADHD child on too much caffeine trying to keep them all in good order.

 

Now we have a nice piece of Killhammer here: both are at their killing potiential, since the dreads are unleashing their salvo all the time and when they charge they are just as effective so will always retain an effect and both are a darn shade hard to kill as the preds will be at long range and AV13 while average is still pretty hard to take down so what few long ranged retalitation you take at it will be few and far between and even then: you've got 3 to deal with. The dreads are AV12 but their venerable rule can reduce any damage they take to just stopping them shooting but with EA they can still move even if stunned thus keeping up pressure while you are wasting shells on my dreads my far more potent preds will now try and recreate the mona lisa in your men's blood now. Oh and the dreads also have their own repair crew so nothing sort of rolling a 5-6 followed by another 5-6 will stop them. This also applies to the preds (the techmarine's start post tends to leave him no more than a move away from the pred to break).

 

The next problem you will have: I often run two tacticals and a MotF with conversion beamer (total of two MotF) and two plasma cannon servitors who will most likely be in the tallest ruin bolstered by him enjoying a 3+ cover save while plasma and conversion beamer goodness hurts you at range (and here's the sore maths: would you rather be hit by 2 plasma cannons and weak conversion beamer or just by the conversion beamer ramped up to str10 AP1...mind it's first target is your toughest tanks and units). The tacticals are both clones with plasma cannon and flamer, think there's a power sword on both. They in objective games spilt and the sarges run hell for leather across the board taking whatever obejctives they can before they die or succeed gloriously. So far this list tends to get draws more than anything! XD (most in part of my home guard tactical holding my objective while my firebase and dreads wipe out your troops and anything else they want before game end.

 

Ironclads are only cost effective if they reach by the way, so let me just see: if I get on the penetrating chart (which I can often do due to alot of firepower naturally bringing AT powerhouses) then I have a 50/50 chance of knocking your ironclad into a useless state, and there's a 2/3 chance of the 3 chances that it will be irrepairable. So naturally I only need 4 penetrating hits to knock out both of your ironclads. I'd only put more into them if it were KP if they were left standing. And why you would escort a rhino with two ironclads I don't know. Give me a real threat would you, I'd knock those three units down within two turns knowing that's your main attack force. ironclads are only cost effective if you sink 70 pound sterling for two drops to put them in. Oh and ironclads might have the immunity to krak grenades but to be frank: I don't hit you with krak grenades, I hit you with real AT firepower from across the board unlike vulkan and his BBQBFF crew.

[Giga]

Dude, that's all nice and sweet, but what you're doing now is basically talking about how 1200+ points of your army is supposed to work. It makes perfect sense in your own particular example, but on a forum like this it's completely pointless, as it's pure theoryhammer based on your gaming experiences, playstyle, battle plan, and the sort of lists you run. I could counter by giving you an entire list of units that would be supporting my ideas, and we could just keep throwing the entire "but I'm going to have this and that supporting my dread and the terrain is going to look like this blah blah blah" without getting anywhere and never helping the other posters.

 

As irony would have it, you're saying I'm looking at things in a vacuum, while you're bashing my own idea about the ironclads by looking at it in a pure vacuum. Obviously, I'm not planning to run 2 ironclads and a rhino on their own. They cost like what, 305 points total? What's with the remaining 1445 points of my army? See where I'm going here? The same argument can work both ways.

 

 

 

 

 

The point is, although it may seem so, we're not discussing dreadnoughts in a vacuum here. We're discussing them in general, giving advice to each other, sharing experiences, and generally brainstorming. Highly personalized and situational things such as the one you're describing in your last post aren't going to help the discussion and they aren't really going to make a case for the venerable dreadnoughts.

 

The best proof for this is that, for the last 4-5 posts, it's been just you and me chatting. Nobody else is contributing, and, I'm betting, not many people are reading (or learning anything from) our posts here, either.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm reading these posts, quite enjoying the verbal sparring! ;)

 

I think a Venerable is more than worth it's cost. When 5th edition SM first came out I was upset about the high points cost, but then I realised after seeing it in action just how powerful it's abilities are. The stat boost is good and combined with the re-rolling on the damage table you have a very tasty unit. I think one thing we forget over having 2 Predators for a single Venerable is whilst the Predators are nasty with their firepower, they don't do anything when opponents are about to charge your lines. There are many circumstances when I would want a Dreadnought to be able to counter charge something to protect my more vulnerable infantry.

 

In the past I have even held up Bloodthristers for an extra couple turn with the Re-rolls. Lucky perhaps, but against lesser foes, like Daemon Princes or units with hidden powerfists, or units with low strength relying on rending to damage it, you can be a real thorn in the opponents side.

 

I have been forced to hold back my attack force because I struggled to take out Dreads that would counter charge by units, thereby taking more fire whilst I attempted to take them out so I could carry on with my attack. That is a threat that only a Dread can give in a SM list.

 

Also, those Predators are alot more vulnerble to being charged even by weaker troops.

 

For these reasons I feel the DCCW + long ranged weapon is the preffered load out for most Venerable Dreads outside a MotF list.

[Giga]

One thing I've never figured out is why people feel predators are so vulnerable to being charged/meltaed?

 

Out of my own experience, my combipredator usually survives most battles it's in simply because it's sitting deep in my deployment zone, usually far enough from the narrow table edge to avoid getting assaulted by an outflanking unit. It rarely, if ever, gets charged by anything. What's more, people usually reserve their meltas for the other things in my army.

 

It's the great thing about predators - they're cheap, their range allows them to stay safe and far in the background, and their threat factor isn't great enough that it makes them a prime target.

 

As for ven dread survivability, it may be that I'm unlucky or my opponents are lucky, but my ven dread usually gets killed as soon as it suffers a penetrating hit, or if it doesn't get killed it'll lose its DCCW or get immobilized. Either way, it tends to go useless/dead real fast. Reroll never helps.

[Zynk Kaladin]

If I'm reading everything correctly, then whatever dread I would field would have to depend on the rest of my army, which makes sense actually. I still like the idea of 4 twin linked strength 7 shots but like was said before the combi-pred pretty much does the same thing... hmm.

[Captain Idaho]

Rifleman Dreads are pretty good because they are mobile. Take both a Combi-Predator and a Rifleman! :D

 

One thing I've never figured out is why people feel predators are so vulnerable to being charged/meltaed?

 

Out of my own experience, my combipredator usually survives most battles it's in simply because it's sitting deep in my deployment zone, usually far enough from the narrow table edge to avoid getting assaulted by an outflanking unit. It rarely, if ever, gets charged by anything. What's more, people usually reserve their meltas for the other things in my army.

 

It's funny, I have lost so many Predators on my back line. Seems like every single opponent I play against has something deep striking, out flanking or whatever. Plus I have managed to charge into opposing vehicles plenty of times myself, as a transported move, assault and consolidation soon takes you across the table.