What's in that Transport?

[ArcticFox]

So I've searched for this answer and come up empty. Forgive me if my search - fu is just weak <_<

 

My son and I attended a tournament not long ago and it triggered a little rules question. He was using some Wave Serpents loaded with various Eldar units and at one point his opponent demanded to know what kind of unit was in each transport, and told him that he was compelled to reveal it.

 

My understanding has always been that you have to let your opponent see your list, but that's all.

 

Is that just a tournament specific rule?

[thade]

Full disclosure is a tournament standard, and I make it a table-top standard for wherever/whomever I play; I encourage you to do so as well. If you have a typed-out list, it has to specify which transport is dedicated to what unit, and that has to be readily obvious to both you and your opponent. (Typically it's not, which is why people will put sergeants and heavy weapon models ontop of their Rhinos at tournies; as much a pneumonic as a way to mitigate their lack of unit identifying markers). Reason being as this prevents units in transports from teleporting between transports (either via cheating or mistakes) on both your part and your opponent's part. Also, it fosters a friendly game, which is more fun than a non-friendly one. <_<

 

Keep in mind that the game is not about simple surprises (like "What's in that box?!") but is about tactical surprises ("yea, you know what's in that box, so you're gonna go try and kill it...FALLING FOR MY TRAP AHAHA!") and chess-like thinking. Not telling someone what's in a transport is sort of akin to not telling somebody what's in your codex. Which I don't recommend, especially if you're new and don't have most of the codecies memorized as many of your opponents will. You want them to be as open with you as you are them.

[Ming]

Agreed. All paper lists need to tell what unit is dedicated to what transport. In friendlyy games, I'll also typically put two of the tranported models on the vehicle roof so I and my opponent know what is in there...

[Mordekiem]

You need to clarify at deployment what unit is where and you need a way to identify each transport seperately from each other. However, I think if you clarify that you put fire dragons in the red falcon and dire avengers in the blue falcon then I am not sure you are required to explain this to your opponent every time they ask.

 

However, there are two reasons I would always tell my opponent if they asked. First, most TOs/judges probably will not back you up. Second, it will make it not much fun for your opponent when you have lots of tanks and if there is any sportsmanship you would probably get dinged. Remember even in tournies fun is important.

 

That said, I always tell my opponent. I also write down on my list if a unit gets in a transport other than the dedicated one. I also mark identifying features on each vehicle such as:

 

Fire Prism (white)

Fire Prism (blue)

Serpent (red and blue)

Serpent (red and white)

 

Truthfully, most people cannot tell a serpent from a falcon from a prism. They also cannot figure out what heavy weapon is what by looking at them. More people at Tournies can, but it is still probably 50/50.

 

But I am all about full disclosure. Noone likes to be bushwacked by some wierd rule or unit and eldar in particular break alot of rules. Communication is important. And if I beat someone I want it to be because of tactics and luck, not because I was hiding rules from them.

 

Also, Eldar players in particular often get painted as cheesy and/or powergamers. So as an Eldar player I feel it is my duty to be a good sport.

 

Of course in friendly games you can play how you want. I usually go out of my way to help my opponent so we both have fun, but it depends on who I am playing and what they do. For some people playing with the bit of unknown and having to remember what is where is part of the fun.

[thade]

However, I think if you clarify that you put fire dragons in the red falcon and dire avengers in the blue falcon then I am not sure you are required to explain this to your opponent every time they ask.

 

I would assert that full, open-disclosure does require this; let me put it another way.

 

Would you rather beat somebody because they lacked understanding of your army and your list?

 

Or

 

Would you rather beat somebody because you are more skilled than they, and they are a near-optimized opponent.

[BlackSpike]

Agreed. All paper lists need to tell what unit is dedicated to what transport. In friendly games, I'll also typically put two of the transported models on the vehicle roof so I and my opponent know what is in there...

 

Same here.

We often proxy/count-as, so it is important to make it clear to our foes what is what, and what is where ...

Putting models on top is an easy way to show which squad is where.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Pg 92 in the BRB has a "note on secrecy"

 

But yes, full disclosure is the norm.

[Seahawk]

That's why I like WHFB; non-disclosure is fun in-game! "Aww, you cast your mega-doom spell on a 19 with no double 6? Scroll! *Smile*"

[Hfran Morkai]

I think for some friendly games it would be fun to hide what units are in which transport from your opponent, after all, how many generals are going to know who is where? (Barring armies with epic scouts...)

 

Though to make this fair you'd have to mark the transport and write it down in your list with what unit is in which, only revealing once the unit is deployed from the vehicle

[Acebaur]

I have to agree with Mikal, I think it doesn't add anything to the game by telling your opponent what's in your transport. In fact I think that it actually detracts from the game. I'm not advocating teleporting units or anything, far from it. I just think that it makes the game more fun and more real if your opponent doesn't know what's in that rhino. Think about, if I have two LRC's one with a squad of Crusaders and one with a squad of Assault Terminators, which one is my opponent going to shoot the most firepower at? Obviously the one with the Assault Termies because it's the much larger threat. In friendly games you can either write it down ahead of time so you can show your opponent or if you are friends with said person I think the Honor system works fine. Other games have non-disclosure as the norm, like Infinity and they do just fine with it. In tournaments I can understand full disclosure because you often don't know your opponent and it has become the norm. In real life you wouldn't know what is inside your enemy's transport so it makes sense that you wouldn't reveal it to your opponent. His tactics are likely to change if he knows that LRC A has the Termies and LRC B has troops. Is that fair to either of you? I say no. This game is nothing like chess, if it were we'd all come to the table with the exact same army and list and how much fun would that be?

[Descendant of Dante]

I agree with both Mikal and Acebaur. I think it's fine to share army lists, in fact, I prefer too. I don't think you should have to divulge what units your transports are carrying though. Making a note of who is in what before each game should normally cool any hard feelings by games end.

 

This game is nothing like chess, if it were we'd all come to the table with the exact same army and list and how much fun would that be?

I like chess :lol:

[thade]

This game is nothing like chess, if it were we'd all come to the table with the exact same army and list and how much fun would that be?

 

Chess is a lot of fun, and much, much older than 40k, with a much more clearly established and understood ruleset. :lol:

 

And honestly, I would really enjoy playing a mirror match against a list identical to mine. That would be very interesting.

 

How realistic is it? It's the future. I have x-ray/sensor/see-thru-er thingies. I can see in your dumb transports. Also, I have psykers which are even better and they're tellin me what's inside. Or the Chaos gods are, because they want to screw with your plans. In game terms, all of my posed solutions sound pretty reasonable.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, RAW is pretty simple:

 

If your opponent asks, you have to tell him everything he wants to know about your list. Period.

 

If he asks constantly, especially during a tournament, you can ask him to stop wasting your time. In a tournament it might even get him reprimanded. But he does have the right to full disclosure by the fifth edition rules.

[Hellios]

This game is nothing like chess, if it were we'd all come to the table with the exact same army and list and how much fun would that be?

 

Chess is a lot of fun, and much, much older than 40k, with a much more clearly established and understood ruleset. ;)

 

And honestly, I would really enjoy playing a mirror match against a list identical to mine. That would be very interesting.

 

How realistic is it? It's the future. I have x-ray/sensor/see-thru-er thingies. I can see in your dumb transports. Also, I have psykers which are even better and they're tellin me what's inside. Or the Chaos gods are, because they want to screw with your plans. In game terms, all of my posed solutions sound pretty reasonable.

 

And.... whatever means of seeing into my transport you have I can have a means to counter-it!

[Agrab]

Yeah, RAW is pretty simple:

 

If your opponent asks, you have to tell him everything he wants to know about your list. Period.

 

If he asks constantly, especially during a tournament, you can ask him to stop wasting your time. In a tournament it might even get him reprimanded. But he does have the right to full disclosure by the fifth edition rules.

 

within reason. It is unreasonable to answer, every turn, what each bike is armed with, especially if they are WYSIWYG. Otherwise, it should always be revealed

[ArcticFox]

Yeah if you're gonna tell them what you have every single turn then you may as well just bring an extra copy of your list for them to look at...

[Agrab]

Yeah if you're gonna tell them what you have every single turn then you may as well just bring an extra copy of your list for them to look at...

 

trust me, doesn't always work. Then again, I bring dice for the kid, as he is so new he doesn't have them.

The problem is that people can not ID things. I might mistake some Ork guns, but after I ask once, I memorize them for later.

[Isiah]

[...] but after I ask once, I memorize them for later.

 

Not everyone is blessed with such a memory :D. Sometimes it's hard to remember / see / identify models / weapons / guns let alone remember who's in what transport... People can ask as often as they like and sometimes I do myself particularly against an unfamiliar army.

 

Full disclosure is the norm, make allowances for those who can't remember.

 

Cheers

I

[ShinyRhino]

[...] but after I ask once, I memorize them for later.

 

Not everyone is blessed with such a memory :P. Sometimes it's hard to remember / see / identify models / weapons / guns let alone remember who's in what transport... People can ask as often as they like and sometimes I do myself particularly against an unfamiliar army.

 

Full disclosure is the norm, make allowances for those who can't remember.

 

Cheers

I

 

This is doubly true when you come up against an army of identical mechainzed units. I played against a SoB mech spam list a while ago, where every single Rhino was painted the same, as was every Immolator and every Exorcist. The owning player couldn't even remember which unit was in which transport, which made me cringe. He'd marked all the Rhinos...on their undersides. So in order to check which unit was in what, he'd have topick the vehicle up off the table, look at the number written on the bottom of it, and put it back down.

I've recently started naming my Rhinos. In the past, it wasn't hard to remember who was in what, as I ran only two Rhinos. One Mk2, and one Mk1. The Mk1 always carried Squad One, and the Mk2 always carried Squad Two. But now that I have two Mk2s running, each with very similar paint jobs, I had to find a way to differentiate them at a glance. I named one "Arsvid". It won me a game in that same tournament, so it earned a name. Now my army lists tell anyone who reads it what unit is in what Rhino, based on the name of the Rhino itself. Tac One is in Rhino "Arsvid", and you'll even know what the squad is armed with!

 

It's pretty much a standard requirement for full disclosure at a tournament. You should also be giving each opponent a copy of your army list to keep, so they don't have to keep bugging you every turn about what's a Troops choice, or what your most expensive unit is.

[Mustalid]

There are no rules for this - except the REALLY IMPORTANT RULE!! 40K is a game, and the point of every game is to have fun, EVEN IN TOURNAMENTS. It's not going to be fun for your opponent if he doesn't even know whose who. In the end, not telling him which unit is in which transport is like taking two identical psyckers and swapping their powers midway through the game.

 

It's not really a victory if your forced to revert to secrecy to win. Yes that applies to Tzeentch to.

[Hfran Morkai]

In the end, not telling him which unit is in which transport is like taking two identical psyckers and swapping their powers midway through the game.

 

It's not really a victory if your forced to revert to secrecy to win. Yes that applies to Tzeentch to.

 

Only if you cheat, if you write it into your army list have fun explaining it away.

 

I think you'll find many real life military personnel disagreeing with you on that point. It's one of the factors that makes combat terrifying ad daunting, not knowing what you're facing. However if my opponent asks me what unit is in which vehicle I will readily oblige unless agreed beforehand that we would keep it quiet.

[Seahawk]

In the end, not telling him which unit is in which transport is like taking two identical psyckers and swapping their powers midway through the game.

 

It's not really a victory if your forced to revert to secrecy to win. Yes that applies to Tzeentch to.

 

Only if you cheat, if you write it into your army list have fun explaining it away.

 

I think you'll find many real life military personnel disagreeing with you on that point. It's one of the factors that makes combat terrifying ad daunting, not knowing what you're facing. However if my opponent asks me what unit is in which vehicle I will readily oblige unless agreed beforehand that we would keep it quiet.

This. Besides, any true Codex chapter player would give his transports the appropriate markings; after all, that's part of standard heraldry :ermm:. Hence why all my rhinos and squads have unit designation decals and markings, like they're supposed to!

[ArcticFox]

I get that full disclosure is a rule, no problem.

 

Here's the thing though... I may be obligated to let my opponent know what I have, but I draw the line at giving them a copy of my list. The idea of full disclosure, IMHO, is coupled with the WYSIWYG rule. It's so that you can't deliberately mislead your opponent. "Oh I know that's a boltgun on the model but he's actually equipped with a meltagun." Or "Whoa! My rhino blew up. Luckily it was the OTHER one that had that Sword Brethren Squad in it... Yeah... that's right..."

 

But that doesn't mean that somehow I'm responsible to be sure they read over every line of the list and remember it, and I'm sure not giving out copies because I'm pretty sure I can't expect one in return. What's next? Giving them a full briefing of my army and the strategic purpose of each unit?

 

It's one thing to keep a player honest. That's a good thing, but that doesn't mean you owe it to your opponent to spoonfeed them.

[ShinyRhino]

I get that full disclosure is a rule, no problem.

 

Here's the thing though... I may be obligated to let my opponent know what I have, but I draw the line at giving them a copy of my list. The idea of full disclosure, IMHO, is coupled with the WYSIWYG rule. It's so that you can't deliberately mislead your opponent. "Oh I know that's a boltgun on the model but he's actually equipped with a meltagun." Or "Whoa! My rhino blew up. Luckily it was the OTHER one that had that Sword Brethren Squad in it... Yeah... that's right..."

 

But that doesn't mean that somehow I'm responsible to be sure they read over every line of the list and remember it, and I'm sure not giving out copies because I'm pretty sure I can't expect one in return. What's next? Giving them a full briefing of my army and the strategic purpose of each unit?

 

It's one thing to keep a player honest. That's a good thing, but that doesn't mean you owe it to your opponent to spoonfeed them.

 

I'm pretty sure providing a copy of yourlist to each opponent is pretty standard at all grand tournament-style events. Local shops do whatever they want, but if a TO tells you to have 5x copies of your list, one for each opponent, one for yourself, and one to submit to the TO, you'd probably better bring the 5x copies.

[thade]

I get that full disclosure is a rule, no problem.

 

Here's the thing though... I may be obligated to let my opponent know what I have, but I draw the line at giving them a copy of my list. The idea of full disclosure, IMHO, is coupled with the WYSIWYG rule. It's so that you can't deliberately mislead your opponent. "Oh I know that's a boltgun on the model but he's actually equipped with a meltagun." Or "Whoa! My rhino blew up. Luckily it was the OTHER one that had that Sword Brethren Squad in it... Yeah... that's right..."

 

But that doesn't mean that somehow I'm responsible to be sure they read over every line of the list and remember it, and I'm sure not giving out copies because I'm pretty sure I can't expect one in return. What's next? Giving them a full briefing of my army and the strategic purpose of each unit?

 

It's one thing to keep a player honest. That's a good thing, but that doesn't mean you owe it to your opponent to spoonfeed them.

 

I'm pretty sure providing a copy of yourlist to each opponent is pretty standard at all grand tournament-style events. Local shops do whatever they want, but if a TO tells you to have 5x copies of your list, one for each opponent, one for yourself, and one to submit to the TO, you'd probably better bring the 5x copies.

 

^ This. Any tournie I've yet been to has required at least a copy of my list for each person I play against, plus one or two for the tournie organizer(s).

 

May I again raise my hand in a vote for "the most important rule".

 

Full disclosure = handing someone your list, or effectively doing so by answering questions ad-infinitum.