LSS w/ Scouts

[TyrionTheImp]

I've been trying to decide whether or not I want to include scouts in my army and if I do how would I use them, so I've been researching options. A lot of the threads concerning putting them in Land Speeder Storms say they can get a 1st turn assault and somehow outflank with scouts on them. How can this be possible with the rules?

 

I did a search and came up with little results clarifying this, but there are A LOT of topics to skim trough, so I figure I'd just ask if someone can clarify it for me.

 

Here is the obvious:

 

Scouts have the Infiltrate and Scouts USR, the Land Speeder Storm has the Scouts USR is fast, open topped and a skimmer. The LSS is NOT a Dedicated transport, therefore Scouts cannot start in the LSS.

 

Here is putting them together:

 

The Scout USR states (page 76 BRB) that units with the rule can move exactly as if in the movement phase, okay so that's 6" for the Scouts themselves, and up to 24" for the LSS. There's a problem though, there aren't any scouts on the Storm!

 

Embarking rule (page 66 BRB) states that models can only embark in the Movement Phase. Scouting moves are not in the movement phase so the scouts cannot Embark on the Storm.

 

This means that they have to embark on the first turn (which they cannot disembark later). Even if they could disembark the maximum movement is 12", which means the opponent would have to move 4" out of their deployment zone (12" movement, 2" disembarking, 6" assault) to be within assault range assuming you have a straight shot at them.

 

Am I missing some exception to these rules that allows Scouts with a LSS to assault on the first turn?

[stinkenheim]

scouts can start the game embarked in a LSS.

the only thing units cannot do is start the game in someone elses dedicated transport. for instance a rhino is purchased for a devastator squad, a tatical squad cannot begin embarked in it. however a land raider that is purchased as a heavy suppot choice can have any unit able to fit within embarked.

 

+EDIT+ the rest of your post is based on a flawed idea that they cannot begin in the storm. the passages you quote would apply to dedicated transports for other units which the storm isn't.

[SeattleDV8]

Scouts have the Infiltrate and Scouts USR, the Land Speeder Storm has the Scouts USR is fast, open topped and a skimmer. The LSS is NOT a Dedicated transport, therefore Scouts cannot start in the LSS.

You have got that backwards, if the LS Storm was a dedicated transport the scouts would not be able to start the game embarked , as it is a fast support transport the scout can be embarked (depolyed) .

[TyrionTheImp]

I've always thought that (and played it that way) but I was never sure. It never explicitly says in the rule book that units can start embarked on non-dedicated transports (Unless I've missed something), I'm glad to hear that for certain though.

[thade]

This is a job for greatcrusade08, but let me see if I can get it right before he swoops in and learns us all.

 

Let's assume Pitched Battle (24" between the LSS and the target, minimum).

 

First turn assault with scouts in an LRR, by thade:

- Deploy LSS as far forward as possible

- Scout move embark into LSS (is this legal? if not, we fail earlier than expected; we can also just deploy the scouts IN the LSS as it's not dedicated)

- LSS moves 12" (if it moves any farther, they can't disembark).

- Failure.

 

Let's assume Dawn of War (12" between LSS and the target, minimum)

- The LSS cannot be deployed as it's neither a Troop choice nor HQ choice.

- Failure.

 

Let's assume Spearhead.

- Haha.

- Failure.

 

I don't see this happening. :)

[thade]

I've always thought that (and played it that way) but I was never sure. It never explicitly says in the rule book that units can start embarked on non-dedicated transports (Unless I've missed something), I'm glad to hear that for certain though.

 

Units can in fact begin the game embarked in non-dedicated transports. What they cannot do is:

- Start embarked into a Transport that is another unit's Dedicated transport.

- Infiltrate/perform Scout moves with it (as those only confer to dedicated transports)

 

EDIT: man I'm sloppy tonight. Infiltrate does NOT confer to dedicated transports. Scout does though.

[Grey Mage]

Actually, because of the size of the circle of no-mans land in spearhead deployment its quite possible to deploy within 18" of an enemy.

 

And in DOW if you go second, having them move in from the table edge turn 1 can allow them to get an assault off if the enemy has advanced...

[thade]

Actually, because of the size of the circle of no-mans land in spearhead deployment its quite possible to deploy within 18" of an enemy.

 

And in DOW if you go second, having them move in from the table edge turn 1 can allow them to get an assault off if the enemy has advanced...

 

Ahhhhhh see that? I didn't think of these things. 18" actually is the minimum, yea? 2" disembarkment from an open-topped vehicle is pretty generous. 20" =)

 

Now that LSS box is looking pretty appealing (as it sits unassembled on my desk).

[CaptinLoken]

Yep... 12inch movement on the scout move Plus 12 inch movement in the movement phase and a 2 inch disbarkment ... 6inch assault is 32inches assault range. This assumed that you can manage first turn.

 

.... LSS are Opentopped/Fast and Scout on their own so they normally have the scout move even if no scouts started the game boarded. BUT WHY WOULD YOU NOT!?....

[thade]

@_@

 

Well then. Time for me to paint a scout army.

 

Also, sitting on the desk. :D (Not kidding.)

[thade]

Wait...why can't infiltrating scouts assault turn one? I feel we've shown they can't here, but I'm drawing a blank.

 

Infiltrate just over 12" away, turn one.

Scout move 6".

Move 6".

Plenty of extra slack to assault.

 

? What am I missing?

[SeattleDV8]

You're not missing anything, a scout unit with a LS storm may easily do a first turn assault..... move the Storm 6"+ disembark .....assault 6"( as it is an open topped vehicle)

Now a scout unit alone could not.....infiltrate does not matter as it and the scout move must end over 12" away.......move 6"...assault 6"...you will still be just short.

[Meatman]

Ok, lets clear some rules misconceptions up.

 

Scouts can deploy embarked as the land speeder storm is not someone else's dedicated transport.

 

Land speeder storms have the scout USR

 

As it is a FAST SKIMMER, it can move flat out in its scout move, so that's up to 24"

 

As it is open topped, it can move 12", and the scouts can still assault after they disembark

 

If a unit of scouts assaults the turn they disembark, the squad(s) assaulted suffer a -2 leadership modifier due to the Storm's cerebus launcher.

 

 

24" scout move, 12" move, 2" disembark, (if you have Shrike, which I do :huh: then 1-6" running), 6" assault.

That's 44" threat bubble on the first turn. 45-50" if you include Shrike.

 

I'd say that is pretty capable of first turn charge.

[greatcrusade08]

Ok, lets clear some rules misconceptions up.

 

Scouts can deploy embarked as the land speeder storm is not someone else's dedicated transport.

 

Land speeder storms have the scout USR

 

As it is a FAST SKIMMER, it can move flat out in its scout move, so that's up to 24"

 

As it is open topped, it can move 12", and the scouts can still assault after they disembark

 

If a unit of scouts assaults the turn they disembark, the squad(s) assaulted suffer a -2 leadership modifier due to the Storm's cerebus launcher.

 

 

24" scout move, 12" move, 2" disembark, (if you have Shrike, which I do ;) then 1-6" running), 6" assault.

That's 44" threat bubble on the first turn. 45-50" if you include Shrike.

 

I'd say that is pretty capable of first turn charge.

 

Ah my padawn beat me to it :huh:

LSS have a huge range, 24" scout move, plus 12" first turn move, 2" disembark and 6" assault, if you inlcude shrike its another D6 fleet move but i usually include a combi-melta for a good shot against AV14 before i charge in for auto hits with meltabombs.

If you include shrike every scout unit gets first turn charges, as they can infiltrate 18" and scoutm ove 6" to be 12" away (12.01 actually), that D6 is a min of 1 so you get assaults..

Other than that scout bikes are pretty handy on the alpha strike scale too

[Meatman]

Ah my padawn beat me to it :huh:

LSS have a huge range, 24" scout move, plus 12" first turn move, 2" disembark and 6" assault, if you inlcude shrike its another D6 fleet move but i usually include a combi-melta for a good shot against AV14 before i charge in for auto hits with meltabombs.

If you include shrike every scout unit gets first turn charges, as they can infiltrate 18" and scoutm ove 6" to be 12" away (12.01 actually), that D6 is a min of 1 so you get assaults..

Other than that scout bikes are pretty handy on the alpha strike scale too

 

I call it an alpha Shrike ;)

[CaptinLoken]

Ah my padawn beat me to it :D

LSS have a huge range, 24" scout move, plus 12" first turn move, 2" disembark and 6" assault, if you inlcude shrike its another D6 fleet move but i usually include a combi-melta for a good shot against AV14 before i charge in for auto hits with meltabombs.

If you include shrike every scout unit gets first turn charges, as they can infiltrate 18" and scoutm ove 6" to be 12" away (12.01 actually), that D6 is a min of 1 so you get assaults..

Other than that scout bikes are pretty handy on the alpha strike scale too

 

... I feel like I'm about to bring out a Rival in this place up in here... THAT WHAT I said. No biggy ... We all know GC is the Scout god.

 

As for Landspeederstroms they are a wonderful turn 1 attack force but equally good at outflank. Coming off a side edge and moving 12" and getting that 8 inch assault helps out when your trying to take down enemy powerunit. More from GC if you need it...

[Ming]

c'mon, say this fast 6 times....one for each troop choice slot:

 

ALPHA SHRIKE STRIKE

[thade]

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail, but it's related and I am confused.

 

Why can't scouts withOUT a transport or bikes assault on Turn 1?

 

I get first turn. I infiltrate just outside of 12".

I scout move them 6".

I move them 6".

I assault 6".

 

That's a first turn 18" threat range, if I can infiltrate them hidden.

 

I guess unhidden it's "just outside of 18" which would prevent the assault; but what about the other case? Is something amiss with that? Can scouts on foot and infiltrated just outside of 12" launch a first turn assault?

[greatcrusade08]

you cannot deploy within 18" if within LOS, and you cant scout move to within 12" of your enemy, as your not 'within' your technically at least 12.01" away and therefore the 6" move and 6" assault wont cut it

[thade]

you cannot deploy within 18" if within LOS, and you cant scout move to within 12" of your enemy, as your not 'within' your technically at least 12.01" away and therefore the 6" move and 6" assault wont cut it

 

AH HA! Thaaaaaat is the bit I missed. Thank you, gc08.

[The Unknown Father]

I have a final doubt: can you outflank with a LSS carring scouts?

 

Someone sais something but then change the topic.

 

Please answer (I use LSS very often)

[greatcrusade08]

Yes they can outflank, scouts can start the game embarked on an LSS

[bystrom]

Yes, upon deployment, you declare the scout squad embarked on the LSS (which you can do, as it isn't a dedicated transport). You then declare that the LSS is outflanking, and is put in reserve.

[Meatman]

... I feel like I'm about to bring out a Rival in this place up in here... THAT WHAT I said. No biggy ... We all know GC is the Scout god.

 

You got it pretty much bang on except you said they could scout move 12" when they can scout move 24". Apart from that you were 100% correct.

[rat of vengence]

I have a final doubt: can you outflank with a LSS carring scouts?

 

Someone sais something but then change the topic.

 

Please answer (I use LSS very often)

Absolutely, my favourite use for it. Deliver a heavy flamer template and a powerfist to a large area of the board AFTER the opponent has commited most of his units. I love it :)

 

RoV