Rage shenanigans.

[thade]

Okay, so, allow me to preface this: next Weds is my last day at my club. =( I am graduating and moving to Boston, where I will seek and join a new club. To bid good bye to my club, I have decided to field a list comprised ENTIRELY of units that I said I'd never use (as they don't fit the fluff of my army). So this list is going to be a bit silly, but this isn't about the list; it's about some shenanigans I want to pull with the list...and it involves playing with the Rage rule.

 

One very important note: don't bother mentioning the points-cost here; it does not concern me for this exercise. :lol:

 

The unit in question is, of course, Death Company, 30 *foot-slogging* DC strong. The Rage rule says that the unit must move, every turn, towards the closest enemy unit. Now, I'm going to take my 30 Death Company (each base just under 1" wide) and line them up side-by-side at max coherency distance (2" apart)...that would actually get to 90", and the table width is 72", so there would be a few DC forming a very widely spaced second row.

 

My turn to move. I now have to measure distance to EVERY enemy unit that is on the table. I find the one that is closed and I move the unit towards it.

 

This is where the shenanigan comes up. It is a shenanigan as I feel it violates the spirit of Rage, but still follows its rule.

 

Rage is per UNIT. Not per MODEL. So I move the DC conga line straight forward, 6". It has now, as a UNIT, moved closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

Clearly there are a lot of tactical issues with this, making it colossally stupid (point cost, which recall doesn't concern me, getting assaulted will be VERY annoying, as will intervening terrain and almost certain CONSTANT terrain checks, etc) *BUT*...is it legal?

[Grey Mage]

My GF, who is a fantasy player and a layman when it comes to 40k, says "it works, but its shenanigans".

 

I completely agree. Theres nothing wrong with what your doing. Would I as an opponent be a litte rawr if you used this as a staple tactic game in and game out, yeah...

 

But were not here to talk about gushy things like 'emotions' were here to talk about rules.

 

And RAW your fine.

[Agrab]

As you measure per model to determine the units distance, i would argue that you need to move towards the average closest unit (if you tried this on me), and then recalculate with the new angles (coming in on the side).

 

You must move towards a unit, which means the sides close in. If you are tied, no idea what happens, but I assume you must pick one and move all towards it. As such, I don't think that this is legal (will read rage later, and try to apply BRB measuring rules to it)

[ShinyRhino]

Interestng send-off game tactic :rolleyes:

 

When you get settled in Boston, look up the 'Arvard 'Ard Boyz, or Dorkamorka. Both good clubs. Dorka plays out of Watertown, with a dedicated rented space and awesome tables. They're fluff nuts and anti-powergamers.

[thade]

Yea, the more I read it the more I was sure it would work.

 

While it's "rawr" keep in mind it's tactically (and this is a formal term here) "dumb as heck". I will be *steamrolled* when I do this. But my opponent for the game is one of the youngest members of the club whom seems to look up to me; I think it'll make his day when he destroys a list that looks this terrifying.

 

@ ShinoRhino (and OT): I have already started posting to the AAB boards as my current club (the 131) and they have some honorable (if distant) ties. I'll definitely look into Dorkamorka as well; ty for suggesting it.

[Agrab]

Looking at the BRB, the measurement to a unit is made from the closest model. As such, I do stand by my earlier claim where you need to messure all units, find the closest (average, or overall) and then move all towards it. Rage requires movement towards the closest, not all closest, thus being one unit.

[thade]

Looking at the BRB, the measurement to a unit is made from the closest model. As such, I do stand by my earlier claim where you need to messure all units, find the closest (average, or overall) and then move all towards it. Rage requires movement towards the closest, not all closest, thus being one unit.

 

My method of moving does in fact move towards the closest unit. Read the Rage rule; it is NOT per *model* in the affected-unit, it's unit-wide.

 

This shouldn't be surprising; were it per-model, you could end up with cases where the Rage rule might conflict with Coherency (you can't always move as far as possible towards the next enemy and regain coherency after a swath is cut through the middle of your unit by JotWW for instance).

 

What I did was legal. For the record, it was also a hit; people thought it was very funny and it was a favorite game for viewing for the night.

[Agrab]

Looking at the BRB, the measurement to a unit is made from the closest model. As such, I do stand by my earlier claim where you need to messure all units, find the closest (average, or overall) and then move all towards it. Rage requires movement towards the closest, not all closest, thus being one unit.

 

My method of moving does in fact move towards the closest unit. Read the Rage rule; it is NOT per *model* in the affected-unit, it's unit-wide.

 

This shouldn't be surprising; were it per-model, you could end up with cases where the Rage rule might conflict with Coherency (you can't always move as far as possible towards the next enemy and regain coherency after a swath is cut through the middle of your unit by JotWW for instance).

 

What I did was legal. For the record, it was also a hit; people thought it was very funny and it was a favorite game for viewing for the night.

 

no, they were moving in a line forward, which is not towards the closest. The edges should curl inwards towards the closest unit, which is one unit, not all units.

I am saying it is a great tactic for a bit, then you actually get close

 

imagine a line. There is one unit closest (decide before if based on average or based on literal closest to any one model (i.e. messure closest from all, the one that is 21" from one beats the one that is 22" from another, even if it is further from the first model). The line must move towards that unit, so the edges move their 6" away from the edge in a diagonal

[Frosty the Pyro]

The key here is that you do not just have to move toward the closest enemy unit, you must move "as fast as possible." And as mentioned earlier unit distances are measured from the models closest to each other.

 

therefor which ever model is closest to the closest unit must move in a strait line (or as direct a path as you can avoiding obsticals), as any other path will not put you as close as posible to the target unit, and thus you will not be moving as fast as possible. All your other models must maintain coherncy, so unless the closest unit hapens to be in a strait line perpendicular to your formation, your formation will have to pull in some, turning (eventualy) into a wedge as oposed to a line. Though weather or not it will be noticable in the distance from your board to assault is unknown

[Grey Mage]

Thats not accurate, if the other models keep pace they can stay at max coherency while continuing to move with the closest model to the closest enemy unit.

[thade]

Thats not accurate, if the other models keep pace they can stay at max coherency while continuing to move with the closest model to the closest enemy unit.

 

This did in fact seem to be the case; when they are all abreast, SOMEBODY is the closest model, and his straight line move toward the closest model doesn't really deviate him from a straight line across the table. :lol: Everybody else stays in coherency and forward they go. Little shifts? Sometimes. Actually, little shifts are more likely when they hit weird terrain features.

[Agrab]

Thats not accurate, if the other models keep pace they can stay at max coherency while continuing to move with the closest model to the closest enemy unit.

 

This did in fact seem to be the case; when they are all abreast, SOMEBODY is the closest model, and his straight line move toward the closest model doesn't really deviate him from a straight line across the table. :D Everybody else stays in coherency and forward they go. Little shifts? Sometimes. Actually, little shifts are more likely when they hit weird terrain features.

 

How can it not deviate? He must come in from the corner of your line in order to reach any point of the table, thus making clumps of models heading in

[thade]

How can it not deviate? He must come in from the corner of your line in order to reach any point of the table, thus making clumps of models heading in

 

Who is he? Consider the following example, in which I'll do my best to illustrate with with letters. "T" represents the closest opponent unit, "X" = a model in the death company. Obviously not to scale, but worth with me here...

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| |

| |

| T |

| |

| |

| |

| X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |

| |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| |

| |

| T |

| |

| |

| X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |

| |

| |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

There. The DC has moved towards the closest enemy unit and is still in coherency.

 

RAW, I have obeyed. My *unit* is moving directly towards that target unit as fast as it can given it's current configuration and maintaining coherency. If they were to start deviating so that some models would end the 6" move "as close as possible" it would actually SLOW the line down as they'd need to maintain coherency....so less of them would get closer faster. @_@ I know it seems like shenanigans: it is.

[Agrab]

How can it not deviate? He must come in from the corner of your line in order to reach any point of the table, thus making clumps of models heading in

 

Who is he? Consider the following example, in which I'll do my best to illustrate with with letters. "T" represents the closest opponent unit, "X" = a model in the death company. Obviously not to scale, but worth with me here...

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| |

| |

| T |

| |

| |

| |

| X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |

| |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| |

| |

| T |

| |

| |

| X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |

| |

| |

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

There. The DC has moved towards the closest enemy unit and is still in coherency.

 

RAW, I have obeyed. My *unit* is moving directly towards that target unit as fast as it can given it's current configuration and maintaining coherency. If they were to start deviating so that some models would end the 6" move "as close as possible" it would actually SLOW the line down as they'd need to maintain coherency....so less of them would get closer faster. @_@ I know it seems like shenanigans: it is.

 

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is. You need to take the Xs on the right side and move them in, as the ENTIRE UNIT must move as quickly as possible TOWARDS the closest enemy (T). Unless you move the sides in, the unit is not moving towards the enemy, rather one model is.

[thade]

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is.

 

The unit has moved closer. Period. The Rage USR does not say "The unit AS A WHOLE"..just "the unit". Under RAW, I'm in the clear here.

 

(For the record, two IG Executioner tanks make pretty short work of this conga line, so don't sweat it too much. <3)

[Agrab]

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is.

 

The unit has moved closer. Period. The Rage USR does not say "The unit AS A WHOLE"..just "the unit". Under RAW, I'm in the clear here.

 

(For the record, two IG Executioner tanks make pretty short work of this conga line, so don't sweat it too much. <3)

 

the unit is the same as the unit as a whole. You are trying to say that the unit in this case means one model from the unit, which is nowhere implied in the rule

the rule states that the UNIT, which is all models (per BRB), must...

[thade]

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is.

 

The unit has moved closer. Period. The Rage USR does not say "The unit AS A WHOLE"..just "the unit". Under RAW, I'm in the clear here.

 

(For the record, two IG Executioner tanks make pretty short work of this conga line, so don't sweat it too much. <3)

 

the unit is the same as the unit as a whole. You are trying to say that the unit in this case means one model from the unit, which is nowhere implied in the rule

the rule states that the UNIT, which is all models (per BRB), must...

 

No, sir. The unit is an entity. The entity has moved closer. Why even consider the individual models within the entity? The entity has moved closer. Done. =)

 

What you are suggesting leads to things that I'm not sure Rage was supposed to force on players. Consider the following scenario: post assault, you must consolidate the unit towards the nearest enemy unit.

 

By your interpretation, they must stay bunched up...and will get pie-plated BAM gone.

 

By my interpretation, they are allowed to fan out so long as they are moving towards that enemy unit. They can weather a pie plate.

[Agrab]

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is.

 

The unit has moved closer. Period. The Rage USR does not say "The unit AS A WHOLE"..just "the unit". Under RAW, I'm in the clear here.

 

(For the record, two IG Executioner tanks make pretty short work of this conga line, so don't sweat it too much. <3)

 

the unit is the same as the unit as a whole. You are trying to say that the unit in this case means one model from the unit, which is nowhere implied in the rule

the rule states that the UNIT, which is all models (per BRB), must...

 

No, sir. The unit is an entity. The entity has moved closer. Why even consider the individual models within the entity? The entity has moved closer. Done. =)

 

What you are suggesting leads to things that I'm not sure Rage was supposed to force on players. Consider the following scenario: post assault, you must consolidate the unit towards the nearest enemy unit.

 

By your interpretation, they must stay bunched up...and will get pie-plated BAM gone.

 

By my interpretation, they are allowed to fan out so long as they are moving towards that enemy unit. They can weather a pie plate.

 

not bunched, per say, unless they start bunched.

I am saying that for the unit to move as quickly as possible, each model in the unit must do so

[thade]

I am saying that for the unit to move as quickly as possible, each model in the unit must do so

 

That would be RAI, as no where in the Rage rule is that stated or explained. And RAI, I tend to agree with you; Rage to me means that they're not tactically-minded enough to spread out, take cover, or even maintain coherency (what do they care? they don't care, they rage)...but RAW I'm not convinced I'm wrong.

[Agrab]

I am saying that for the unit to move as quickly as possible, each model in the unit must do so

 

That would be RAI, as no where in the Rage rule is that stated or explained. And RAI, I tend to agree with you; Rage to me means that they're not tactically-minded enough to spread out, take cover, or even maintain coherency (what do they care? they don't care, they rage)...but RAW I'm not convinced I'm wrong.

 

Unless the unit means only one model in the unit, then it must mean the unit collectively (that is, each model). Funny thing, in all other uses of the unit, it means all models, so why would rage be different?

[thade]

You are correct, of course, that it references every model in the unit. What it does not do is reference each model individually.

 

What it says is "the unit must move as fast as possible."

 

And this is a RAI nightmare. Either they must, each model, disregard all other movement considerations (other models in the unit in difficult terrain, models out of coherency, fitting nicely under a tiny pie plate from a plasma cannon, etc) move towards the nearest unit. They did not mean this, of course, but they don't say that, so we shouldn't infer that.

 

We can't move each model as fast as possible towards the target without compromising it's survivability (perhaps this is the idea) or violating very basic movement rules (clearly not the idea). Without a clearer write up, I fear we're stuck.

[River Black]

Im with Agrab on this one. The way I read the USR Rage if you spread a unit out along a line for deployment the unit as a whole would have to move towards the target as fast as possible. This would result in the entire unit converging in on one point durring the movement.

[Grey Mage]

The unit is not, as a whole, moving closer, one model is.

 

The unit has moved closer. Period. The Rage USR does not say "The unit AS A WHOLE"..just "the unit". Under RAW, I'm in the clear here.

 

(For the record, two IG Executioner tanks make pretty short work of this conga line, so don't sweat it too much. <3)

 

the unit is the same as the unit as a whole. You are trying to say that the unit in this case means one model from the unit, which is nowhere implied in the rule

the rule states that the UNIT, which is all models (per BRB), must...

If ANY part of the unit is closer, than the whole unit is closer. Just like if ANY part of the unit is within 6" of a sanguinairy priest the whole unit is considered to be within 6".

 

The unit, as a whole, moves closer whenever a part of it does. Even in the example a above you actually have to go very very close to the enemy before you start moving farther away from it by simply moving forward- and part of the unit will be moving in a direct line, IE the fastest possible speed.

[thade]

If ANY part of the unit is closer, than the whole unit is closer. Just like if ANY part of the unit is within 6" of a sanguinairy priest the whole unit is considered to be within 6".

 

That is very true, and is the premise behind my entire argument. <3 By RAW, I have moved the unit closer and I'm there.

 

Insisting anybody move each model closer is RAI and kind of unfair.

[Agrab]

So, if i move just one guy towards it, at full speed, and the rest back away (but still in coherency), I am following the rule?

Well then, I can move backwards with a unit that is raging

 

My thing is this. The unit is a collective. For the unit to move towards something the entirety of the unit must move towards it, not just one part of it. The unit must move as quickly as possible, not one model in the unit. You are basically saying that one model a unit makes.