scout vs nids

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Just a question. Scouts in general with sniper rifles are useless against Nids right?

 

I was searching for a forum that talks about scouts effectiveness against Nids (e.g. MC), but could not find one. :P

[Brother Drakk]

Sniper scouts are generally used against monstrous creatures. I've never fielded them, and have seriously doubted their effectiveness, but some people swear by them.

[Fatuous]

Like everything it really is down to the numbers that you take.

 

Take 5, and you will be seriously underwhelmed. You'll only get on adverage 1 or 2 wound through per shooting phase, and that really is not enough if they are getting a save. The rending is all well and good, but you will only get a 1/3 of wounds rend (so in three turns of shooting, you can expect 1 or 2 max rends).

 

So you either need to add in telion, take 10 scouts, or both. But even with 10 you are still only really looking at 2 or 3 wounds per turn, then the armour saves, but have more chance on the rending.

 

I wouldn't say they are useless tho, if you are facing monsterous creatures, they are well worth it, against wraithlords and avatars especially (where melta weapons are useless) their use increases.

 

If you add in telion, then seriously consider a heavy bolter as well for the hellfire shells.

 

But, they are reletively cheap (unless you add camo cloaks, in which case they cost as much as a marine, with no free upgrades), and can hold objectives, and make the most of getting in to position, which is very useful.

 

Best use is with cloaks and bolstered defenses for that 2+ cover save. Then even if they aren't killing much, they can hold an objective, and be very difficult to shift with out a heavy flamer.

[greatcrusade08]

if you think about it ten base snipers is 150 points with a ML (best use for tank and Mc busting), twenty is 300 points, add in telion maybe to boost that to 350.. thats pretty good value for boots on the ground.

alot of guys reckon sternguard are better, and it may be the case, but snipers shouldnt be disregarded.

i use twenty in my army and they are pretty damned good, telion alone is always worth taking snipers for.. in one game i took 5 wounds off a tervigon on turn one and telion is forever knocking out powerfist sergeants.

snipers are wasted against T3 opponents though and in the same game i dropped the rifles and shot at gaunts with my bolt pistols (AP5 so no saves) before charging in and wiping them out, 20+ attacks at S4 and I4 is still pretty handy

[Gaz1858]

It always sounds better when you talk about Scouts GC08!!

 

I think theyre handy to have around. Theyre a fairly cheap scoring unit that can pull a few tricks out the bag with their Sniper Rifles. Occasional pinning is always nice!!

[Fatuous]

Stern guard probably are better tbh, but.....

 

they aren't scoring

have to be closer

cost more

oh, and still arent scoring (ok, yes you can take pedro)

 

scouts are generally under rated, but can and do work well. Telion is an excellent squad upgrade, and as above posted, great for taking down sargents, champions, exarchs, IG officers, etc.......

[Cerrik]

Last time I used my snipers vs. Nids, they were kinda sucking... however, I only had 5 with Telion... despite their performance, Telion made them totally worth it.

 

and it does always sounds better when GC08 talks about scouts. So much so that about a month ago, with his inspiration, I started a scout army of my own. Its still WIP as I'm working out if I want just my 2 LSS or a 3rd. So far just 1 game under my belt with them... to the Nids... it did not go so well but I'm hanging in there and have hope =)

[mowglie]

alot of guys reckon sternguard are better

 

I'll try to explain this position.

 

Comparing naked Sternguard with naked sniper Scouts, point-for-point, shooting any target, Sternguard will cause more wounds.

 

The argument that comes up all the time is not "Sternguard are better". It's "I need something to kill that MC in the shooting phase, what should I use?", and the answer is "Sternguard", moreso than "sniper Scouts".

 

Scouts have some advantages:-

 

They score (although if you've already taken Kantor, obviously scratch this one)

They don't take up an elites slot

They can infiltrate, scout, and mtc (although that last one isn't so hot for snipers!)

They cause pinning

They potentially have 2+ cover saves (although the camo cloaks make then even worse point-for-point)

They have better shooting against some targets at extreme range

 

If you're not making good use of those advantages, you're better with Sternguard, who additionally have a significantly larger range of targets they're proficient against, can mech up, and can move+rapidfire.

[Fatuous]

Last time I used my snipers vs. Nids, they were kinda sucking... however, I only had 5 with Telion... despite their performance, Telion made them totally worth it.

 

and it does always sounds better when GC08 talks about scouts. So much so that about a month ago, with his inspiration, I started a scout army of my own. Its still WIP as I'm working out if I want just my 2 LSS or a 3rd. So far just 1 game under my belt with them... to the Nids... it did not go so well but I'm hanging in there and have hope =)

 

Scouts really are a delivery system and extra wounds for the sarge. In almost all cases, they are the ones that will be doing the damage, and Telion exagerates that.

 

With BS 3 you really have to take larger units if you want them to make a difference in a gun fight. Their use in smaller numbers is for extra targets, contesting, and being able to get in to position, speed bump, etc. They just don't have the ability on their own to cause enough damage with only 5 of them (when sniping). Add telion and a heavy bolter, and that does change quite dramatically, but pretty much all down to Telion, not the scouts them selves :(

 

1 tactic I did read (can't remember where now, but was from a scout army nut) was snipers, ML and cc weapons, combat squaded in to the same objective/terrain piece mid table. with the snipers and ML above, and the CC weapons below, They can't really be ignored, and any one going to try to get them out of cover will have the CC ones to get thru first. U might wanna try it, as seems to get good results. I'm not 100% sure as yet, whether I like to bother ocmbat squading them tho. Sure you loos the mobility and ability to protect the snipers and keep them firing, but they squad gives up less KPs, and stands more chance with higher numbers of not running, etc....

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Thanks for the replies. Helps me out. :(

[Fatuous]

:(

 

the sarge is where it is all at tho, so for any none sniper units, go all out on their war gear so they can get the job done. Combi flamer or melta is almost essential IMO.

[Br0ther Rafen]

i just want to add (tho i'm not a scout nut) that i find snipers extremly useful against SM/quality over quantity army's (though they do lack against hordes).

Even 5x squads have been known (for me) to kill/bog down their tacticals and even rhino's (mostly only with Telion/ML, but the've killed vehicles by themselves as well) so they are pretty good. plus, in average cover w/ Techmaribe and/or Camo cloaks they have been a really annoyng unit to my friends, who shoots lots of shots/templates at them to kill them off. in most games, they make back their points easily, but they have to be used against the quality armies, other wise you usually better of with CCW scouts, which are also pretty good.