cheesy Wolfstandard

[Valerian]

Consider a regular old Grey Hunter pack charges an enemy unit (CSM) and activates their 10 point Wolf Standard. Out of their 30 attacks they now hit with 18 attacks, instead of just 15. They now cause 11 Wounds, instead of 8. Not a super-huge difference, but the effects are even more dramatic when you factor in Special Close Combat Weapons. Of the 5 or so Wounds that the CSM cause to you in return, you now lose just 1, or perhaps no Hunters, instead of 2.

 

Your results will certainly vary, but that 10 point upgrade will almost always pay for itself in a game. If all it woes is help you kill one more enemy model and save one more Hunter then it has already given you a 200% return on your investment.

 

I've got 4 full Grey Hunter packs, each with a Wolf Standard. For 40 points I get a rather significant advantage for the majority of my force.

 

Valerian

[Zhukov]

Every upgrade makes an army, as a whole, better.

Yes, but there is a difference to what degree.

 

Personally, if I were concerned about calling something overpowered, it'd be two free flamers in a Blood Claw squad. Free special weapons? Yes please. Or the Flamer/Plasma combo in Grey Hunters. Oh no! For the low low price of taking a ten-man Hunter squad, I get a twenty point free piece of wargear! That, as a whole, makes the army better! Overpowered!

Free flamers? What is overpowered about flamers on Blood Claws? It adds just more of the kind they already do well + you can deny yourself a charge + you have to take a 15 man squad. Thats not good at all. Flamers are kinda pointless on Blood Claws in my opinion, not really bad though as its free.

 

Flamer + plasma for free? Means you cant attach a wolfguard and still be able to ride in a rhino + flamer and plasma dont match well together. Different targets and difference in assault/rapid fire profiles. So not OP at all.

 

Ten points for a one-shot item that lets you reroll only one result of a die once per game, for one phase?

You make it stand there like its a minor thing. I'm not going to state all the advantages again. Fact is; that this item completely :cusss up with statistics for 1 assault phase and this is golden if you have some knowledge about how to win games. Dont take this question in an offensive way: are you a serious tournement player? Because I cannot see how any good player cannot see how good this item is. Again, this is not meant as an offense; I'm just interested because you confuse me. You dont really state why Wolf Standards are not good; you merely come up with 'then this is also OP!' and other nonsense like that. If you can state with a clear explanation about why its is not as good as I say; please do so. I'm completely open to counterarguments. I can also do the numbers for Wolf Standard if you prefer that; I can show you clearly how much it can do. With a lot of variables included, but it takes a lot of time so I'm a bit hesitant to do that as for me its clear enough thats its so good you should always take it in larger squads which possibly might see combat.

[Decoy]

Every upgrade makes an army, as a whole, better.

 

Yes, but there is a difference to what degree.

 

There is a difference, true. But it's largely arbitrary. Against a solidly shooty army, a Wolf Standard is nigh useless, because either the assaults will be crushing victories, or there will never be an assault phase as Wolves are shot down completely.

 

 

Free flamers? What is overpowered about flamers on Blood Claws? It adds just more of the kind they already do well + you can deny yourself a charge + you have to take a 15 man squad. Thats not good at all. Flamers are kinda pointless on Blood Claws in my opinion, not really bad though as its free.

 

Flamer + plasma for free? Means you cant attach a wolfguard and still be able to ride in a rhino + flamer and plasma dont match well together. Different targets and difference in assault/rapid fire profiles. So not OP at all.

 

Well, two flamers on Blood Claws seem pretty damned fine against Nids or Guard, especially since they're free.

 

On the flamer/plasma bit... So having a squad that has fairly decent shooting against both hoarde and armor, with no other upgrades, for 150 points, doesn't seem a little over the top to you? Especially given that I can have sixty MEQs on the board for under a thousand points while maintaining antitank and antipersonnel abilities, capable of being equipped with close combat methods for fairly cheap? Yeah, I consider the Flamer-Plasma more OP than the Standard, to be sure. It makes every squad a lil' bit o' "Kill anything."

 

 

You make it stand there like its a minor thing. I'm not going to state all the advantages again. Fact is; that this item completely :cusss up with statistics for 1 assault phase and this is golden if you have some knowledge about how to win games. Dont take this question in an offensive way: are you a serious tournement player? Because I cannot see how any good player cannot see how good this item is. Again, this is not meant as an offense; I'm just interested because you confuse me. You dont really state why Wolf Standards are not good; you merely come up with 'then this is also OP!' and other nonsense like that. If you can state with a clear explanation about why its is not as good as I say; please do so. I'm completely open to counterarguments. I can also do the numbers for Wolf Standard if you prefer that; I can show you clearly how much it can do. With a lot of variables included, but it takes a lot of time so I'm a bit hesitant to do that as for me its clear enough thats its so good you should always take it in larger squads which possibly might see combat.

 

Ah, there's the crux of the issue. You're a Mathhammer freak! Because something screws with statistics, you think that it's overpowered because it throws all your "planning" out the window! Essentially, "It messes with my methods, it's obviously overpowered."

 

I've played in my fair share of tournaments, and walked away in the top three of all of them, taking first in two of them. Granted, I don't have the money to go to things like 'Ard Boyz or a UKGT, but I've got a fair few (about fifteen-ish) Top 3 wins on the local and state level (New York.)

 

What I do have, though, is a 600+/31/47 Win/Tie/Loss record. Let me explain something that you Mathhammer boyz just can't seem to understand. Probability does not rule this game unless you let it.

 

Now, I know that might have gone over your head, so let me explain a bit.

 

I don't run mathhammer. Why? Because it gives me a preconceived notion of what could happen. In doing that, it changes my playstyle (Not attacking that Nightbringer with my Lord, I'd be stupid!). In allowing mathhammering to run my playstyle, I eliminate possibilities.

 

With Mathhammer:

 

Lord does not attack Nightbringer

One Long Fang Melta squad does not split fire against two Monoliths

Three Bikers do not turboboost, point blank, in front of entire enemy army (if all the rest of the allied army is on foot.)

One ten-man squad does not attempt to solo-charge various monstrous creatures.

 

Without Mathhammer:

 

Lord -does- attack Nightbringer, and dies glorious death or takes down Nightbringer.

Meltas do split fire, either taking down one or both Monoliths, or dies a horrible death.

Three bikers do turboboost, die horridly or absorb 2250 points worth of enemy shooting and live.

One ten-man squad does solo-charge, killing off a Tyrant, three Carnies, and two Zoanthropes, with seven still alive at the end.

 

EDITTED FOR CLARIFICATION: By all "mathhammering", most, if not all, of these scenarios will end in violent death. Yet I cannot count on all fingers, toes, and teeth how many times I've not only performed these actions, but been wildly successful. Everyone insists that I'm just lucky, and that's true. However, too many people "Mathhammer" and avoid these situations because they "shouldn't" succeed. Well, perhaps they shouldn't, but the minute you quantify that, you eliminate the possibility entirely. When my Lord takes down nine Carnifexes and two Hive Tyrants with full Tyrant Guard escort in one game, or when one Meltagunner, who is 18 inches away, takes down fifteen BA in three squads of five with two Plasma-weapons and a Power-weapon per squad, or when my Rune Priest takes on, and defeats, thirty Berzerkers, or when my Bike squad runs rampant through Nurgle's lines for an entire game, or when one Wulfen holds up a ten-man of Nurgle Terminators and Typhus for four turns, and deals the deathblow to Typhus himself... I find it hard to put any stock in "Mathhammer."

 

The onus is not on me to prove that the banner isn't overpowered. The onus is always on the accuser, and in this instance, I believe that duty falls to you, Zhukov. However, I'll warn you, I take no stock in Mathhammer, as you can ask any of the more long in the tooth in the Fang here as to why I don't deal in "Probability." The only way you'll manage to convince me is if you can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that every time I use a banner, my squad will, certifiably, get much better, to the point of Overpowered, compared to the effects of Master-Crafting or Rerolls on Wolf Guard, with factors based on both rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound on those Wolf Claws.

 

That includes predicting how many ones I will roll, the results of individual rerolls, and {THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT} how many times per game, per phase, per banner I will roll those 1's.

 

I'll save you some time. Don't bother, because, looky looky, you can't. Your precious mathhammer has failed you here like it does on the gaming board.

 

I've met your Mathhammering ilk on the battlefield, and every single one of them has been borderline intolerable to play. One of 'em insisted on throwing his models and cursing violently (Gating Long Fangs bypassed his Psyhic Hood, blew up three Dreadnaughts, two of which exploded, taking half of the twenty men around them with him. He threw everything that died against the wall), another crashed the table we were playing on (after I tabled his Eldar turn two after he gambled on me NOT killing his uber-killy warlock squad of doom), another refused to play me after I continually defied the odds and took on a Bloodthirster with my Wolf Lord, not only beating the damned thing, but killing it in one round of combat while taking NO wounds in return, three games in a row. I've never met a Mathhammer-based player that I've liked, either on or off the table. Folk like that ruin the fun for those who just love the game.

 

Don't walk into my house and lay down a blatant accusation without any facts to back it up. Mathhammer ain't facts. Mathhammer is used by :D ers who need to justify their losses. "But that shouldn't have happened", "This is obviously OP", "Statistically impossible" and other such pathetic drivel. Either post to me how the Standard is superior to every piece of wargear, or every saga, or every weapon, with FACTS to back it up, not "Well, statistically, you'll roll 7 hits, 5 wounds..." because I don't deal with statistics or probabilities. I deal in absolutes and possibilities (odd combination, right?)

 

So, Mathhammer Man.

 

I love a good challenge. Don't you?

 

Convince me.

[Zhukov]

Ah, there's the crux of the issue. You're a Mathhammer freak! Because something screws with statistics, you think that it's overpowered because it throws all your "planning" out the window! Essentially, "It messes with my methods, it's obviously overpowered."

No its not overpowered because it throws all the planning out of the window. Thats just another advantage. I think 1 thing may also not be clear here: I'm playing Space Wolves myself, i'm not crying from the oponent side who faced it and thinks its overpowered... Not that it changes anything.

 

What I do have, though, is a 600+/31/47 Win/Tie/Loss record.

Oke cool to have you share that, not that I asked for it. It was merely for checking how serious of a player you are. I'm pretty sure I got better ratios than you though. ;) You know why? Because I dont take unnecessary risks because I indeed use math during games. Mathhammer is one of the biggest reasons why I barely ever lose a game.

 

I don't run mathhammer. Why? Because it gives me a preconceived notion of what could happen. In doing that, it changes my playstyle (Not attacking that Nightbringer with my Lord, I'd be stupid!). In allowing mathhammering to run my playstyle, I eliminate possibilities.

Why would you allow mathhammer to run your playstyle? You clearly dont know how to use it, or what it in essence is. Its merely a tool, which gives you pointers about average effectiveness.

I never understand how people can say bull:cuss to mathhammer: thats the same as saying you dont care wether a model has BS3 or BS4, cause the BS3 model could hit while the BS4 can fail... Thats not the point of mathhammer. It does not show you what will happen, merely what on average can happen. It can tell you things if you have to choice between different options, it does not say you cannot do certain things, that would be the sign of a mediocre player who thinkgs mathhammer will grant him the win. Its a tool, a helpfull tool when applied under the right circumstances; not something you can win games with in itself.

 

With Mathhammer:

 

Lord does not attack Nightbringer

One Long Fang Melta squad does not split fire against two Monoliths

Three Bikers do not turboboost, point blank, in front of entire enemy army (if all the rest of the allied army is on foot.)

One ten-man squad does not attempt to solo-charge various monstrous creatures.

What are these for senseless assumptions you make there? It entirely depends on the situation really. I would actually split fire btw: the chances of destroying 1 monolith is still as high, while you have now the extra option (which doesnt set you back in any way) of destroying 2!

Lord vs Nightbringer depends: If the only possibility of winning the game is destroying the Nightbringer with my lord, i'll charge it. If I have some other choice; i'll probably dont risk my Lord (who probably has a giant chance of failure).

If turboboosting bikers has an advantage, why not? Sacrificing a unit for a gain in some way which is worth it can be a good move.

Multicharging MC's with 1 squad entirely depends, I cannot say anything about this.

 

If you still dont get it: You are misunderstanding the way mathhammer works. It does not rule out your mind suddenly; or eliminating possibilities or other things like that. At least not if you dont want to. Using mathhammer should never be a disadvantage if you dont let it.

 

 

 

 

I'll save you some time. Don't bother, because, looky looky, you can't. Your precious mathhammer has failed you here like it does on the gaming board.

....

I've met your Mathhammering ilk on the battlefield, and every single one of them has been borderline intolerable to play.

.....

I've never met a Mathhammer-based player that I've liked, either on or off the table. Folk like that ruin the fun for those who just love the game.

.....

Don't walk into my house and lay down a blatant accusation without any facts to back it up. Mathhammer ain't facts. Mathhammer is used by <_< ers who need to justify their losses. because I don't deal with statistics or probabilities. I deal in absolutes and possibilities (odd combination, right?)

.....

So, Mathhammer Man.

You surely are arrogant and you come over as very unfriendly if I'm honest. Not that I care though, I'm pretty arrogant myself too. However you seem to have a lot of assumptions about 'Mathhammer Men'. I'm a very friendly player I think; no rule-nazi, throwing models because 'statistics failed' or other stuff like that. Why should I? Matthammer does not give me insurances about what happens: its actually the other way. It tells you that there is always a chance that things dont go the way you want. Really you would be surprised in a pleasant way when you played against me. You dont hear me rambling about numbers going wrong or anything; I merely make decicions in my head with the aid of Mathhammer. You will just see me playing as any other player.

 

If you deny arguments which use mathhamer; then you are playing a different game than I do. Every codex has stats with Numbers, each unit costs a certain numbers. Strenght of certain things gets meassured by numbers. You cannot deny it: Is BS4 better than BS3 if it has the same cost or not? Would you take a Land Raide if it costed 1350 points while keeping the same stats? These are of course stupid examples, but it works the same when you do it with other, more difficult to compare things: 40k is made by numbers. If you only played against players who behaved very unsocial, while using mathhammer; thats a shame really. It does not ruïn the game however, the players itself do.

It indeed is ont the end of all things. You still have a lot of other variables. Therefore it should never be the only tool you use; only use it when its 'save' to apply it.

 

Final note: I do not suggest that players who dont use Matthammer are 'wrong' players or any other kind of thing. Each player should enjoy the game in the way its for him the most pleasant way to do so. Be it with running story/fluff driven armies or by using the strongest list they can by using matthammer. Just respect each other, thats all. One of the most basic social rules applies in 40k too in my opinion: live and let live.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

I vote for a Decoy vs. Zhukov battle. Gather your forces and settle it on the table. A minimum of 3000 points, no turn limit, straight up annihilation. Nobody walks away until the other guy is completely gone. The loser gets a keg of ale and the winner gets a t-shirt and a keg of ale. Anyone with me?

[Decoy]

Oke cool to have you share that, not that I asked for it. It was merely for checking how serious of a player you are. I'm pretty sure I got better ratios than you though. ;) You know why? Because I dont take unnecessary risks because I indeed use math during games. Mathhammer is one of the biggest reasons why I barely ever lose a game.

 

Well, you asked for something about serious games, and I haven't had my vodka this morning until just now, so I'm a bit out of the loop occasionally. I'm in functioning form at the moment, but I'm pressed for time as I have to finish up painting the house.

 

Oh, I've no doubt that you have better ratios. Then again, someone who wins one game and loses none also has better ratios than me. When it comes to serious-ness, I tend to take my 40K as srs bsns. I'm probably the guy in the back, howling and chuffing and barking and laughing, beer in one hand, dice in the other. (I do blame three of my losses on being stone-cold drunk; Within 2" is not the time to stand, shoot, and laugh at the Khorne Berzerkers. That's just common sense.)

 

And in regards to you using math, or barely losing a game, the same can be said of me for the exact reasons I stated; I -don't- use math, and I prefer to just do what feels wolfy and what feels right. If I have a gut instinct about charging Necron Paraiahs with a lone, underequipped IC, I'll do it. That, for some reason, is what wins me games. I guess it's a "Whatever works for you" sort of thing.

 

 

Why would you allow mathhammer to run your playstyle? You clearly dont know how to use it, or what it in essence is. Its merely a tool, which gives you pointers about average effectiveness.

I never understand how people can say bull:cuss to mathhammer: thats the same as saying you dont care wether a model has BS3 or BS4, cause the BS3 model could hit while the BS4 can fail... Thats not the point of mathhammer. It does not show you what will happen, merely what on average can happen. It can tell you things if you have to choice between different options, it does not say you cannot do certain things, that would be the sign of a mediocre player who thinkgs mathhammer will grant him the win. Its a tool, a helpfull tool when applied under the right circumstances; not something you can win games with in itself.

 

I think the problem is that I've faced too many Mathhammer boys who do exactly as you said; They rely on the math to "assure" them that the combat is in their favor, and they'll win. They disregard the law of averages (A law that I'm repeatedly the exception to) and expect to win, then throw a tantrum. Don't get me wrong, I've played against some good Mathhammer folks, not the asinine kind, but they're incredibly rare, and they still die just as readily as the mediocre ones.

 

The only way I say bull :confused:: to Mathhammer is because it never applies. The battle never goes "average-ly". Sure, the average of a combat may say that I'll kill X amount of my enemy's models, but I have never once seen that happen. Maybe the law of averages just doesn't apply to me, but I've always either killed far more or completely annihilated the enemy, despite what the mathhammer says will happen. Maybe it's Karma! Maybe there's another poor sap on the other side of the world who can only roll 1s, even on 100 sided dice, but... That's mainly the reason I call bull :P . Because for me, that's exactly what it is.

 

 

What are these for senseless assumptions you make there? It entirely depends on the situation really. I would actually split fire btw: the chances of destroying 1 monolith is still as high, while you have now the extra option (which doesnt set you back in any way) of destroying 2!

Lord vs Nightbringer depends: If the only possibility of winning the game is destroying the Nightbringer with my lord, i'll charge it. If I have some other choice; i'll probably dont risk my Lord (who probably has a giant chance of failure).

If turboboosting bikers has an advantage, why not? Sacrificing a unit for a gain in some way which is worth it can be a good move.

Multicharging MC's with 1 squad entirely depends, I cannot say anything about this.

 

See, perhaps this is where the mathhammer falls apart for me. Tell me how two Meltaguns, both within 12", have the same chance of blowing up a monolith as four meltaguns. Last I knew, 2<4, and somehow, that math fails to compute for me.

 

In regards to the Lord, the only reason I do it is for glory. Sure, the math puts my Lord at a MASSIVE disadvantage, but right now, my lord has over thirty solo C'tan kills to his name, and never once died, even despite the explosion at the end. Normally, those kills are in one assault phase.

 

The bikers, turboboosting them really didn't give them an advantage. They were being shot at by no-AP weaponry, so the armor piercing didn't matter, and I didn't need the Invuln (4th ed at the time.) I just felt it'd be damned fluffy to have my bikes rip-roar straight toward the enemy, and I knew they'd survive. I can't explain it, but I knew they would. 100+ 3+ saves later, and there they were, unharmed, and they proceeded to dismantle the enemy, some times two squads at a time.

 

There was a megabattle during the Medusa V campaign. Tyranids, ALL Tyranids, had Without Number. So I decided to throw my 10 Storm Claws + Rune Priest into the backfield. They racked up almost as many kills on Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants as the entire rest of the allied forces combined. Statistically, impossible, yet they did so, and all but two of them survived. Care to write up the odds on 10 Storm Claws and a Rune Priest dropping 11 Carnifexes and three Hive Tyrants over the course of four turns, losing only two men in the process? Mathhammer me up those stats.

 

 

If you still dont get it: You are misunderstanding the way mathhammer works. It does not rule out your mind suddenly; or eliminating possibilities or other things like that. At least not if you dont want to. Using mathhammer should never be a disadvantage if you dont let it.

 

I'm willing to admit my exposure to mathhammering may simply be a series of bad eggs. However, over eighty opponents in three different states? That seems pretty high odds that I happen to run into every asinine and retarded mathhammer opponent in the area. I confess that I may not understand how Mathhammer works, simply because I've never held any stock in it nor cared to examine it, as per my exposure to Mathhammer on a personal level.

 

 

You surely are arrogant and you come over as very unfriendly if I'm honest. Not that I care though, I'm pretty arrogant myself too. However you seem to have a lot of assumptions about 'Mathhammer Men'. I'm a very friendly player I think; no rule-nazi, throwing models because 'statistics failed' or other stuff like that. Why should I? Matthammer does not give me insurances about what happens: its actually the other way. It tells you that there is always a chance that things dont go the way you want. Really you would be surprised in a pleasant way when you played against me. You dont hear me rambling about numbers going wrong or anything; I merely make decicions in my head with the aid of Mathhammer. You will just see me playing as any other player.

 

See, this is the part of your post that bothers me the most. I'm not offended, but I'm hurt that I'm called unfriendly. Granted, you have every reason to call me unfriendly, but I'm really not an unfriendly person. When it comes down to the gaming board, I'll probably be rip-roarin' drunk, and after I table you, I'll buy you a drink or two, we'll shoot the :cuss: , tell great tales of our exploits, and in general, enjoy ourselves.

 

Also, I think we got off on the wrong foot regarding each other, if only because I'm rather cheesed whenever anyone pounces around screeching "Overpowered! Underpriced!" I defend my codex with a fierce pride, while trying as hard as possible to hold a nonbiased, analytical perspective. I'd rather violently defend the codex and then be proven wrong as opposed to the other way around.

 

You're right, too, that I was a bit out of sorts in my comments... Again, I attribute it to not being drunk... So I do convey my sincere apologies. To seem snarky, even passively, is not something I am fond of doing without reason, and I really didn't have a reason. So for that, I'm sorry.

 

If you deny arguments which use mathhamer; then you are playing a different game than I do. Every codex has stats with Numbers, each unit costs a certain numbers. Strenght of certain things gets meassured by numbers. You cannot deny it: Is BS4 better than BS3 if it has the same cost or not? Would you take a Land Raide if it costed 1350 points while keeping the same stats? These are of course stupid examples, but it works the same when you do it with other, more difficult to compare things: 40k is made by numbers. If you only played against players who behaved very unsocial, while using mathhammer; thats a shame really. It does not ruïn the game however, the players itself do.

It indeed is ont the end of all things. You still have a lot of other variables. Therefore it should never be the only tool you use; only use it when its 'save' to apply it.

 

I think we do play different games in that regard, then. Numbers and stats do not equal "Math". BS 4 is, arguably, better than BS 3. However, like most things, I don't really take stock in low numbers. I'll play with what I got, because I make my armies to be fun instead of competitive. With that said, my fun armies almost always table "Competitive" armies, if only because I don't take the game as seriously, overthinking and (fake?)Mathhammering. If the Land Raider was a part of my army that has performed well, aye, I'd take it, even if it were that many points. I basically play along the lines of "If a model does well, it gets a promotion, it gets new weaponry, and it earned it's place in my army. I'm never taking it out." Granted, that's over the course of a long time, but still. (All hypothetical, I know what your point was. :P )

 

I think I'll agree. It was the player that ruined that game, but when they consistently blamed me for being lucky, or having the Dice Gods on my side, defying all odds (I think one of the times I killed a bloodthirster, the odds were... I think 7,810,439,011 to 1 or something), and having the audacity to criticize me for winning, only because "You did a bunch of stupid :cuss. You should have lost"? Yeah. I'm going to be prejudiced against that type of player.

 

Your analysis and description of Mathhammer is acceptible, and understandable. I'll continue playing by gut instinct, but I respect your Mathhammery.

 

Final note: I do not suggest that players who dont use Matthammer are 'wrong' players or any other kind of thing. Each player should enjoy the game in the way its for him the most pleasant way to do so. Be it with running story/fluff driven armies or by using the strongest list they can by using matthammer. Just respect each other, thats all. One of the most basic social rules applies in 40k too in my opinion: live and let live.

 

 

I'll agree to that on one condition. I've always lived by the following: "Don't expect respect. I won't just give it to you. You have to earn it." For what it's worth, you've earned mine in this exchange. Folk like you and I, we'll always play differently, but I'm okay with that. So long as you behave in a Wolfy manner, of course. ;)

 

 

Now. Back on topic.

 

Banner isn't undercosted nor overpowered. :P

[Requiem of the Wolf]

And If ever anyone needed a example of why we Sons of Russ are so damn awesome,we just got a wonderful example right here.

By the way Decoy,About that guy that allways rolls ones,even on 100 sided dice? Yeah I know him. At least now I know who to have him direct his curses towards,rather then me since its clear you are a bit luckier then I am lol.

 

Not by much granted...but at least I have a good reason for why I am so lucky. I scare the living hell out of my dice the first day I buy them and they do what I tell them to afterwards. If I want 10 6 siders,I buy 12..The first time I roll them I tell them to roll 6's,and any of them that roll 1's,I take one and crush it with a hammer in front of the rest. Then I roll them again and tell them to get 6's. Repeat the process one more time. After that my dice will most of the time roll exactly what I want them to or at least within a good range lol.

[Mordekiem]

Math and statistics is part of the game. You cannot play with any sort of tactics if you do not rely on them. Heck you cannot even make a list without basic addition and multiplication. You may or may not conciously think it out but you do use it when you game.

 

We all know 5 terminators with lighting claws will beat 5 gaurdsmen with lasguns in CC. It may be common sense, but it is also math and statistics. B)

 

That said there are still tactics that you use and people can make some strange decisions. Also the objectives of the game are not neccesarily to kill more bad guys. But if you get the "numbers" on your side you will win more often than you lose. I also think that you can't let the "numbers" interfere with having fun.

 

As for gambling, any real gambler will tell you it is all about odds. You go agains the odds enough and you will get burned. The law of averages works for everyone. Most people do not keep track of everything. They tend to only remember really unusual things. I seriously doubt that in your 678+ games you have kept track of every dice roll. But over time you have found what works for you. That's using odds which is math. :devil:

[Decoy]

As for gambling...

 

If ya want to get into gambling, we can go there too. B) I went out last night, actually. Started with $70, left with $380. How? By playing blackjack, and playing my gut. 19 shows? I'll hit if my gut tells me to, and I'll get an ace or a two. 12 shows? I'll stand, because my gut tells me the dealer is going to go bust.

 

I disagree with your Maths, if only because I've never considered the math of it. I barely even know the math of Grey Hunters opening fire on MeQs.

 

We all know 5 terminators with lighting claws will beat 5 gaurdsmen with lasguns in CC. It may be common sense, but it is also math and statistics.

 

Perhaps. Likewise, ten GK Terminators will defeat one Wulfen in close combat. Yet... They didn't. My Wulfen held them up for quite a few turns until reinforcements arrived, slaughtering the Termies to a man at no loss to any of my forces.

 

Also the objectives of the game are not neccesarily to kill more bad guys.

 

My sig begs to differ. I never play by mission. I always play by Annihilation. :devil:

[Mordekiem]

What did the dealer have? ;)

 

Blackjack is the ultimate math game. But eventually you will lose more than you make at a casino.

 

Like I said, you may not conciously use it, but you do use it. All the things you mention are still part of the odds. If you want to rattle off "against the odds" things we can go all day. The whole world is chock full of things like that, let alone warhammer. Instead of one or two special instances why don't you keep track of every dice roll over a few games? For every dice you roll mark it down. I am willing to bet that they are all very similar in numbers.

[Decoy]

Dealer normally keeps kings up. For some reason, I'll never hit if a dealer shows a ten, and I never buy insurance (though I've been told that's a good thing. Only gambled once before, came away with about the same winnings from the same starting money.)

 

I'd be willing to mark down every die roll in a game. It'd be interesting, failing all else.

 

My luck has, in several tournaments, caused players to call judges over to make sure my dice weren't rigged. The judge would roll 'em, get seven 1's out of ten, I'd roll 'em, get all fives and sixes. Basically, the only way someone can win against me is if they give me no armor save whatsoever, and even then it's iffy. (Four Plasmacannons hitting a tightly-knit Grey Hunter pack, forcing 17 5+ covers. Made 16 of them.)

 

I wish I could say these things were isolated incidents, but they're really not. There's normally three or four odds-breaking rolls per game, with the rest simply "unlikely" (Rune Priest and Melta squad scattering to a point amidst a MASSIVE array of infantry on a Deep Strike, and after placement, having -exactly- 1 inch from any nearby model. A millimeter to any side and they were goners.) I'll keep track on the next few games I have, and I'll let ya know. ;)

[stinkenheim]

'mathshammer' isn't a bad thing nor is it a great thing.

its handy to know the averages of what your squd will be able to do in the upcoming combat if for no other reason than to judge whether you need to shoot with a second unit to swing the odds in their favour.

i use averages and maths in most of my games, not necessarily to dictte what i do but to mke sure i don't do something too stupid. it may be to see whether i have a reasonable chance of using my single meltabomb tkill that raider, or whether by charging that squad of nobs i'm going to be losing my unit for nothing more than slim chance... as it turns out i often do those things any way mostly because i can see no alternatives. doesn't mean maths is bad, and i wouldn't count myself as a poor player.

i still take risks and i still play in a wolfy way, for instance my wolf lord almost always goes toe to toe with the enemy characters. i just try not to do anything that has next to no chance of succeding just because it could be cool.

 

sometimes you have to play smart, sometimes you have to play cool. playing one way or the other doesn't make you a worse player, nor does considering all the options available and choosing the one with the higher chance of success.

[TiguriusX]

19 shows? I'll hit if my gut tells me to, and I'll get an ace or a two. 12 shows? I'll stand, because my gut tells me the dealer is going to go bust.

 

I disagree with your Maths, if only because I've never considered the math of it. I barely even know the math of Grey Hunters opening fire on MeQs.

 

I understand you have a total disdain of math and statistics but these stories of rare events aren't really supporting an argument against someone utilizing math hammer.

 

Hitting on 19 and winning doesn't mean you are special or your gut is never wrong. It means you were lucky. Rare events do occur in life but not with enough frequency to bet your life on.

 

Good players understand there comes a point in a game where the reward is worth the risk and you need to seize the day...good players know when this is and accept it when the odds are not in their favor. If you just want to play positive odds regardless of the situation you might as well play against an AI bot.

 

If you think hitting on 19 one time and succeeding is a valid argument against any usage of math-hammer there is no hope of ever having a reasonable discussion on the topic with you

 

You are more than welcome to plow through life as is because nobody is forcing you to use "math-hammer"

[Mordekiem]

Well Decoy, you must be extremely lucky. I hope that carries over into all your life, not just warhammer. However, most of us are average, though we have all experienced the good and the bad. I have had plenty of game changing dice moments. I could rattle off a huge long list of crazy stuff for you. But dice alone won't win you games. If you've played hundreds of games you can't be using newb tactics all the time. Even 3 or 4 "gamechanging" rolls a game are not going to win for you without decent tactics, list and knowledge of the game.

 

I know that you know the odds, understand the odds and use the odds because you have said so yourself. Just because you are not conciously thinking the odds in math terms does not mean you are not using them or using mathhammer. You know your wulfen will probably normally die to the GKs. That's math. You know you should not make 16 of 17 cover saves. That's math. You continue to use a model or unit that does well for you over a number of games. That's math. You know BS4 is better than BS 3. That's math. You killed a bloodthirster with "7,810,439,011 to 1" odds. That's math! (albiet really poor math) :cuss

 

Deny it all you want, but you DO mathhammer. Everyone does. ;) Anyone who says they don't use math in 40K is a liar. Mathhammer is a tool. Like any tool it is only as bad as the person wielding it. Sounds like you have ran into some of those people and are now applying that label and dislike to anyone who mentions math or numbers. Please stop it. :D Hating on people will ruin your karma. B)

 

Using math and playing the odds is not a bad thing. Nor is "using your gut" or using good tactics or knowing the rules. Me, I use them all. B)

[Decoy]

Hitting on 19 and winning doesn't mean you are special or your gut is never wrong. It means you were lucky. Rare events do occur in life but not with enough frequency to bet your life on.

 

True. I suffer no illusion that I'm somehow special, but I do know that I'm lucky. Constantly. Be it a blackjack when my gut tells me to bet it all, or making 40+ 3+ saves on one Wolf Lord, or walking away from a head-on collision going 65 completely unharmed. I'm lucky as hell.

 

Good players understand there comes a point in a game where the reward is worth the risk and you need to seize the day...good players know when this is and accept it when the odds are not in their favor. If you just want to play positive odds regardless of the situation you might as well play against an AI bot.

 

I believe the appropriate saying here is "I'd rather be lucky than good." Thankfully, I'm a large deal of both.

 

If you think hitting on 19 one time and succeeding is a valid argument against any usage of math-hammer there is no hope of ever having a reasonable discussion on the topic with you

 

Oh, it's not. One example is never a good excuse for it. However, when I win all seven of blackjack hands that I hit on a 17 or above, I tend to disregard the "odds", or the "Averages". Perhaps my luck will run out one day, but it hasn't for eight years, and it isn't showing signs of stopping. (Go go four natural 20's in a row in D&D!)

 

 

You're quite right. There's no hope of having a reasonable discussion on the topic, really, because it doesn't apply to me. It might apply to you, but when it comes to me, Mathhammer does not apply. When you shoot at me, you will not kill "average" numbers of things. You will continually kill far fewer than average, if any. When you assault me, don't expect to kill "Average", because you won't. When I assault you, presume you'll be wiped out, no matter what your mathhammery says. Think that one Lone Wolf can't take out 3/4ths of your army? He can. Think that Wolf Lord will die to thirty Melta shots? Guess again. Think I'll ever fail a Leadership for any reason? I have yet to do so.

 

Call me "Lucky" if you feel like it, because that's just what I am. Likewise, I will continue to live my life, lucky as all hell in every way, disregarding the "Math" because to put it bluntly, it doesn't apply to me. Why bother concerning myself with something that has no place nor influence in my life?

 

I understand you have a total disdain of math and statistics but these stories of rare events aren't really supporting an argument against someone utilizing math hammer.

 

What I'm getting at is that mathhammer is fallible. There will always be "Fluke" events, what you call rare, yet which happen every game. Game-changing, tide-turning defiance of the "average", where all attempts at mathhammery fail. Mathhammery exposes the average, yet does not consider the fluke die rolls. Mathhammery, in any case except as Zhukov has described, does not provide anything close to an accurate representation of what "should" happen any more than presuming that all die will come up fives and sixes or ones and twos. Essentially, and this is a general rule of life, "What should happen... won't."

 

I'm not trying to support any particular argument against Mathhammer, really. I just see it as something akin to drinking before a game, or praying to the Dice Gods. Really, it's nothing more than a superstitious practice that someone does to make themselves feel more in control of the situation, when in reality, such rituals are nothing more than (I hope I can post this) mental masturbation. Making one feel good about oneself in an absence of direct influence, instead relying on "hard" science or superstition to "ensure" their odds. It's quantifying an unquantifiable, and that's just incredibly silly.

 

What this incredibly convoluted devolution of the OP was originally discussing was using Mathhammer to analyze the Wolf Banner. I continue to consider this folly, because the Banner relies on a set of unquantifiable inconsistencies, whereas something like a powerweapon or thunderhammer has a quantifiable, definite benefit: Ignoring armor, and doubling strength, for instance. The banner is completely, UTTERLY reliant on luck, and could be largely useless, even on more than one squad. You cannot quantify with Mathhammer something that is so incredibly fickle as the consequences of the Banner, and of the rolls prior, and to simply say "Well, you'll fail this many, reroll this many" (or what have you) to find your -average- is probably the last thing you can do to qualify the banner as over or underpriced. Would people consider a Powerfist overpowered, simply because it will almost always wound and -will- always ignore armor? Hell, I'm willing to bet the Powerfist will make more of a return on it's points than the Banner would. Same for any special weapon. Yet somehow, the banner is overpowered, because it MIGHT do something?

 

That's like saying that the Rune Priest is overpowered because, somewhere, at some time, he -MIGHT- cancel out three or four enemy psychic powers a turn. I, personally, would need hard, concrete evidence that the Banner is overpriced or underpowered, in comparison to other weapons and abilities, before even remotely considering it as something even -potentially- overpowered.

 

 

EDIT: FOR MORD:

Well Decoy, you must be extremely lucky. I hope that carries over into all your life, not just warhammer. However, most of us are average, though we have all experienced the good and the bad. I have had plenty of game changing dice moments. I could rattle off a huge long list of crazy stuff for you. But dice alone won't win you games. If you've played hundreds of games you can't be using newb tactics all the time. Even 3 or 4 "gamechanging" rolls a game are not going to win for you without decent tactics, list and knowledge of the game.

 

Very true. While my secondary weapon on the battlefield is luck, my primary is strategy and tactics. List, not so much, because I tend to play for fluff, not competition, but your point is well-made.

 

I know that you know the odds, understand the odds and use the odds because you have said so yourself. Just because you are not conciously thinking the odds in math terms does not mean you are not using them or using mathhammer. You know your wulfen will probably normally die to the GKs. That's math. You know you should not make 16 of 17 cover saves. That's math. You continue to use a model or unit that does well for you over a number of games. That's math. You know BS4 is better than BS 3. That's math. You killed a bloodthirster with "7,810,439,011 to 1" odds. That's math! (albiet really poor math) laugh.gif

 

Yeah, I don't got any clue on the Bloodthirster thing, the guy rattled off that number at me because he evidently "mathhammered" it out. However that works.

 

I grant that I do have knowledge of math, but I don't consider it in the game. In the examples given, for instance, I don't bother thinking that the GKs will probably die to the Wulfen, I just assault. What happens happens. Same for the other examples. (Except for BS4 being better than BS3... That's just a concrete number comparison, less math.)

 

Deny it all you want, but you DO mathhammer. Everyone does. msn-wink.gif Anyone who says they don't use math in 40K is a liar. Mathhammer is a tool. Like any tool it is only as bad as the person wielding it. Sounds like you have ran into some of those people and are now applying that label and dislike to anyone who mentions math or numbers. Please stop it. biggrin.gif Hating on people will ruin your karma. cool.gif

 

Using math and playing the odds is not a bad thing. Nor is "using your gut" or using good tactics or knowing the rules. Me, I use them all. cool.gif

 

Eh, hatin' on folk makes 'em hate me, and when they hate me, my dice get 'em back. I kid, of course. :cuss But I do see your point.

 

I admit that I've been a bit misguided in regards to mathhammer, citing both poor experience and poor actual knowledge. It just aggrivates me when people say, especially mathhammer folks, "This MeQ squad will kill 1.75 of them, then kill 2.80 in assault, then a 55% chance of the enemy running away..." (continued). No! That MeQ squad will NOT kill 1.75 of them, they will kill however many they kill. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise. Even then, you're lying poorly, because I gurauntee you that I'm not cutting any of my models into quarters just because you want to be right about how many die. :D

 

 

You know, I think a large part of it is an inherent, suppressed superstition. I hate to have potential control taken out of my hands in regards to things like a game; Too much relies on the dice, and to have arguably one of the largest factors in the game be completely random lends itself to a sense of powerlessness. Therefore, I turn against Mathhammer, defying the odds, and pushing against the grain to prove that I don't need "Averages" to win, I need strategy, spirit, and tactics, of which I have in abundance on all counts. Perhaps I have no genuinely sound reason to dislike Math-ing the game other than that... I'm willing to accept that possibility, as that sounds fairly like me.

 

Anyways, I think I've sidetracked this topic enough with my constant replies (Go go being drunk and bored), so I'll withdraw for now, and let y'all have the topic. Only thing I'll say on leaving:

 

Probabilities are average and boring. Possibilities are endless and infinite.

[TiguriusX]

I admit that I've been a bit misguided in regards to mathhammer, citing both poor experience and poor actual knowledge. It just aggrivates me when people say, especially mathhammer folks, "This MeQ squad will kill 1.75 of them, then kill 2.80 in assault, then a 55% chance of the enemy running away..." (continued). No! That MeQ squad will NOT kill 1.75 of them, they will kill however many they kill. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise. Even then, you're lying poorly, because I gurauntee you that I'm not cutting any of my models into quarters just because you want to be right about how many die. :D

 

To be honest with you I hate those numbers as well. I use "math-hammer" (and this is a definition that changes depending on who you speak to) to decide what tool is best for the job.

 

For an exaggerated example...if I need to take down a landspeeder with armor 10 and I can choose between a single boltgun or a single melta I'm going with the melta. The odds favor penetrating and blowing the target up. Sure I could roll a 1 if bad luck occurs but I accept it and use the boltgun and hope he can finish the job next with some lucky glancing.

 

Now...if that same landspeeder turboboosted for a cover save it makes me reconsider whether I should use my single melta on another target without a save. A 3+ cover save changes the situation. If I have another viable target without a cover save I might fire at him instead.

 

"Math-hammer" to me is simply a tool so I know what possible results are. I still make the final decision based on the actual game situation which includes some input from my "gut"

[Requiem of the Wolf]

*chuckles* after all this I want to play Decoy just because I think it would be hilarious to match my luck against his. Though admittedly,My luck has a tendency to go south when It would either be funny or cinematic lol. Though those luck swings happened mostly when I was playing Chaos. Like 4 Termagants being assaulted by a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch,and not only did the DP not inflict a single wound,those same 4 termagants turned around,hit and wounded on every attack and I blew every save. It was hard to say whether me or my opponent was more suprised, But while I was busily laughing my ass off he was looking at me in shock and kept saying "There is no way that should have happened" Mathhammer would state that something like that has almost no chance of happening. But I have things like that happen alot, most times in direct opposition of what Probability would say would happen.

 

Like the Wolf Lord in power armor and a Belt of Russ getting fired on by the entirety of a 1000 pt Chaos army and making every save,armor or invulnerable. And then the chaos player remembers the boltgun on the rhino,It fires,wounds,and I roll a 1.Or 5 long fangs with missile launchers and a WG with cyclone,Dropping krak missiles into a group of 3 Imperial Guard.7 missiles fire,6 hit.none of them wound.Why? As far as I can tell,because something like that would be funny as hell. Some Tyranid monstrosity that could reroll hits and wounds charges a squad of 8 thousand sons marines at the start of turn 2. by the end of the game at turn 6,those marines had lost 1 guy.Why? again...Because something like that happening would be funny as hell.

 

Set me against impossible odds and I will pull through every time. Give me a fight where it seems I should have an almost guarenteed chance of success and watch me fail miserably.

 

Some people are just flat out luckier then others. Some of us that are like that end up with balancers. Others like Decoy seem to not have those balancers yet.

 

In General,Mathhammer will give you probable odds. You can use those odds to calculate risk vs reward. For those players that Luck hasn't singled out in one form or another, I am sure it would be a useful tool. Some of us it will never apply to.

 

And before you ask,yes,at the request of a player at my store...I kept track of my dice rolls. In 2 games straight,I never rolled a 1 except in Leadership tests. I rolled a 2 a total of 11 times. 6 of those were to hit rolls,2 of which were on a model that hit on a 2+.5 of those were armor saves. 1 of which was on a model with runic armor. so...out of two games...I failed 8 rolls. Not counting scout armor rolls since I didn't keep track of the threes,and my scouts tend to take serious casualties since I use them very aggressively.

[TiguriusX]

And before you ask,yes,at the request of a player at my store...I kept track of my dice rolls. In 2 games straight,I never rolled a 1 except in Leadership tests. I rolled a 2 a total of 11 times. 6 of those were to hit rolls,2 of which were on a model that hit on a 2+.5 of those were armor saves. 1 of which was on a model with runic armor. so...out of two games...I failed 8 rolls. Not counting scout armor rolls since I didn't keep track of the threes,and my scouts tend to take serious casualties since I use them very aggressively.

 

You should head to Vegas and hit the craps table when you get on a roll.

 

During my last trip one of my friends rolled something like 8 "7's" in a row to start the game. It was the only money I won during the trip but it paid for everything.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

And before you ask,yes,at the request of a player at my store...I kept track of my dice rolls. In 2 games straight,I never rolled a 1 except in Leadership tests. I rolled a 2 a total of 11 times. 6 of those were to hit rolls,2 of which were on a model that hit on a 2+.5 of those were armor saves. 1 of which was on a model with runic armor. so...out of two games...I failed 8 rolls. Not counting scout armor rolls since I didn't keep track of the threes,and my scouts tend to take serious casualties since I use them very aggressively.

 

You should head to Vegas and hit the craps table when you get on a roll.

 

During my last trip one of my friends rolled something like 8 "7's" in a row to start the game. It was the only money I won during the trip but it paid for everything.

Believe me I have thought about it several times. But I also know I have both a compulsive and addictive personality. So me going to a place like Vegas,even assuming my luck held,wouldn't be a good thing more then likely. Not unless I had a couple 'minders' to make sure to pocket at least half of my winnings to keep me from wasting it. The funniest thing an opponent ever said about my luck was "I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your dice aren't loaded,Ive seen you roll 1's and 2's constantly...when taking leadership.Otherwise its 5's and 6's...How the hell do you allways manage to roll what you need?"

[xxvaderxx]

In fact, there is no such thing as a 3-sided object, its actually impossible.

 

A coin or any cylinder is a 3 sided object.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

In fact, there is no such thing as a 3-sided object, its actually impossible.

 

A coin or any cylinder is a 3 sided object.

Yes but neither is useful for generating a random result between 1 and 3 due to the fact that certain sides are larger then others,thus more likely to result in them coming up then the others.

[Quillen]

lol You guys crack me up.

 

The banner is awesome. Only a blind person would not see this. It lets me reroll all 1s in a combat of my choosing. That's a no brianer. Even if you can not do math. Melee attacks, Damage, and Saves. That is a huge help.

 

As to the Plasma Pistol and flamer. The new codex makes wolves weaker. Except for the banner and wolfen. Which almost break us even with the old grey hunter load outs. It's not over powered. It's the new trend for kids that can't do math to make lists. If they take 10 they get this for free so they do not need to hurt their heads thinking. lol

 

As to wins and loses. I use to win 90% of my games. I know I went 6 months not losing one. I to am considered lucky by people cause I take chances at the right time. I also use Math to make sure I am not screwing the pooch. Mathhammer is a cop-out term for people that can not reason out statistics. They don't see how much a piece of gear or a squad load out can change a fight and they are like, "it's just mathhammer."

 

We had this nimrod at the local game store and he thought he was something special. And he was good. But not awesome. He resented me cause I won the local tourny here 7 months in a row. I had to thou, as I moved to Canada and could not work legal yet. So I needed money to keep me hobbing going. Well we started talking about lists and how I was winning against him, and I must be cheating cause his lists were amazing. And I used math to show him everything I did, and then the few times I threw caution to the wind and charged. I believe in gut moves too. I listen to my guts cause they have saved me in games and in real life.

 

I took each fight and showed him how I did the option that gave me the best chance to hurt him and keep my stuff alive. Call me weird but I like to keep as much of my stuff moving as I can. If there is no other way, then I use luck. Hope for the best and start rolling. And he said I was a Mathhammerer. And if he ment I used math to spank his ass ever time we played I must agree.

 

Math is important to this game. You have to take it into account from time too time.

 

 

As to spliting fire on 2 monoliths, heck yeah. If odds are one will effect then it's the same if you shoot both. And if you get lucky, you might bring down both. And that is awesome. It's also sound math. As shooting all at one is still the same odds of success.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

lol You guys crack me up.

 

The banner is awesome. Only a blind person would not see this. It lets me reroll all 1s in a combat of my choosing. That's a no brianer. Even if you can not do math. Melee attacks, Damage, and Saves. That is a huge help.

 

As to the Plasma Pistol and flamer. The new codex makes wolves weaker. Except for the banner and wolfen. Which almost break us even with the old grey hunter load outs. It's not over powered. It's the new trend for kids that can't do math to make lists. If they take 10 they get this for free so they do not need to hurt their heads thinking. lol

 

As to wins and loses. I use to win 90% of my games. I know I went 6 months not losing one. I to am considered lucky by people cause I take chances at the right time. I also use Math to make sure I am not screwing the pooch. Mathhammer is a cop-out term for people that can not reason out statistics. They don't see how much a piece of gear or a squad load out can change a fight and they are like, "it's just mathhammer."

 

We had this nimrod at the local game store and he thought he was something special. And he was good. But not awesome. He resented me cause I won the local tourny here 7 months in a row. I had to thou, as I moved to Canada and could not work legal yet. So I needed money to keep me hobbing going. Well we started talking about lists and how I was winning against him, and I must be cheating cause his lists were amazing. And I used math to show him everything I did, and then the few times I threw caution to the wind and charged. I believe in gut moves too. I listen to my guts cause they have saved me in games and in real life.

 

I took each fight and showed him how I did the option that gave me the best chance to hurt him and keep my stuff alive. Call me weird but I like to keep as much of my stuff moving as I can. If there is no other way, then I use luck. Hope for the best and start rolling. And he said I was a Mathhammerer. And if he ment I used math to spank his ass ever time we played I must agree.

 

Math is important to this game. You have to take it into account from time too time.

 

 

As to spliting fire on 2 monoliths, heck yeah. If odds are one will effect then it's the same if you shoot both. And if you get lucky, you might bring down both. And that is awesome. It's also sound math. As shooting all at one is still the same odds of success.

The original arguement came from the idea that some thought the standard was overpowered for its price. Others arguing that it wasn't overpowered. Then someone brought up math statistics and then it went on from there.

[Godhead]

Heh.. i know that if I hit a tactical marine with a str 5 twc WC, or if I hit someone with a TDA WC at str 4, then the str 5 one will get me more kills. I don't know by how much, but I do know it's noticeable. I know that if I get to reroll any dice, then it helps me not roll like piss when I really need it. Wolf standards rock. My 10 man squads don't leave home without them. They have absolutely changed the outcome of a battle. Against a unit of bloodletters I went from killing 3 to killing 7, causing me to win combat. Plus if you really hate math hammer, then absolutely take them since they add something that is almost impossible to math hammer out. If you think of it in simple terms. If I get to reroll one failed armor save, then I made back 5 points on the cost. If I get to reroll a power weapon wound on a plague marine and it wounds, then ive made back over double my investment in that standard. The great thing about the standards is that more dice you throw, the better it becomes.

 

Inquisitor to Decoy-"Brother Wolf, charging that squad of Khorne beserkers is a deathwish. You would have a 1210341 to 1 chance of surviving".

 

Decoy to the Inquisitor- "Rock on, so you're saying I have a chance. FOR RUSS!!!! FOR THE ALL FATHER!!! CHAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGEEE!!!!"

[Wispy]

I'm sort of perplexed as to why there are walls of text about mathhammering and not mathhammering. Hostile walls of text. Personally I think it's ridiculous that someone thinks it matters whether a player math's out the averages or not. It's really none of your business how another player chooses to approach the game and play his army.

 

Stop being silly gooses.

 

 

Myself, I am not too great at crunching statistics, but I do have a rough idea what my chances are, when to take risks, and when to play it safe. The wolf standard is a great deal, no matter how ignorant you decide to be about it.