cheesy Wolfstandard

[Zhukov]

You're right, too, that I was a bit out of sorts in my comments... Again, I attribute it to not being drunk... So I do convey my sincere apologies. To seem snarky, even passively, is not something I am fond of doing without reason, and I really didn't have a reason. So for that, I'm sorry

Apologies accepted of course!

 

Oke if people like it or not, I'm going to tell you very basicly what Mathhammer (MH) does for me and the more: what it not does.

 

Luckily ( ^_^ ) you came up with a very beautiful example:

 

"This MeQ squad will kill 1.75 of them, then kill 2.80 in assault, then a 55% chance of the enemy running away..."

This is a very wrong conclusion a LOT of people make when they have the most basic understanding of MH, I will come back to this.

 

The basic MH uses just the odds of throwing certain numbers on a d6 coupled with the stats of a unit. Because there are 6 numbers, its a 66% or 2/3 you will throw a 3+ save, very simple huh?

Multiplying this with stats, you could get something like shooting 20 bolter rounds at Orks in cover:

20 bolter rounds x BS4 x 4+ to wound x 4+ cover save =

20x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 3,33 dead Ork, on average

 

This is the basic idea. What one can do with this numbers entirely depends, ussually you only mathhammer when you want to know something. Now comes the thing what a lot of people do wrong:

 

The numbers which you always get are averages. The chances you dont throw this average are much and much bigger. A lot of people fail to realise this. Simplest to show this with throwing just 2 d6's: average (same as the median in this case) is 7. One cannot deny this. However there are 36 different outcomes you can get with 2 d6's. You can throw a 7 with 6 different combinations (1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1). So the actual odds of throwing the average numbers of 7 with if you throw 2 d6's are 6/36 = 1/6 = 16,67%.

This works the same if you calculate what a certain weapon will do on average. Its called the 'spread' in English if I'm not mistaken. However I do not care about calculating the chances of throwing other numbers besides the averages as I see not really a use for them; I only need the averages. (this is not completely true; a small spread means more reliability. I rather have the possibility to inflict 4 wounds including re-rolls, compared to 4 wounds without re-rolls. The chances are higher I will actually throw the 4 wounds if I'm having re-rolls. This goes both way though: my potential damage output gets closer to the average on average, the chances I throw both higher and lower gets slimmer)

 

An example what MH or averages can tell me:

 

I have 2 weapon platforms and 2 targets. I want to try and kill them both.

 

Chances of destroying:

Weapon 1 vs Target 1 : 45%

Weapon 1 vs Target 2 : 60%

Weapon 2 vs Target 1 : 30%

Weapon 2 vs Target 2 : 15%

 

Weapon 1 is clearly better against both compared to weapon 2. However you can only shoot with each 1 time. Its not hard to see what one would do in this case: You shoot with Weapon 1 at Target 2 and with Weapon 2 at Target 1.

Might you definately want to destroy Target 2, I would still shoot with Weapon 1 at it first; if it fails you can shoot Weapon 2 at it too. (use the highest chance weapon for succes first, so you secondary weapon has a bigger chance of being able to fire at something else)

 

This is just an example of what Mathhammer can do. It merely can make you do the most efficient things, which gives you the highest chances of succes. Its not guaranteed you actual get better results (although one could argue that in the long run it will), but it does give you the highest chances. You, Decoy with you insane luck, might still destroy Both targets even when you shoot with Weapon 1 at Target 1 and Weapon 2 at Target 2; but that not the point and I hope you understand a little more now what MH can do.

 

I used to use mathhammer a lot in the past when making lists and comparing stuff and things like that. I dont really do this anymore, I merely use it during games and it works brilliantly for me.

 

One example of the influence the Wolfstandard had in 1 of my games. I know its anecdotal advice, but I had enough of all the MH talk ;) I was playing with my still completely grey Wolves (as I recently started) against a friend of mine. He was playing with my Chaos tournement list.

 

He charged with a 8 man Berzerker squad including Powerfist against my 10 man + Wolfguard in TDA with chainfist and wolfbanner squad. (2x plasma + cyclone too but thats not important)

 

With help of the wolfstandard:

I got 1 casualty instead of 3 before his Fist swung.

I hitted more because I re-rolled 2 succesfully.

I wound exactly 8 instead of the 7 I had at first.

Because of this 8th wound I inficted his Powerfist died too (wound allocation FTW) and so could not swing.

My Powerfist from the Wolfguard killed 3 instead of 2.

 

Final result: he loses the complete squad and I lose 1 guy.

 

This example also shows how the things add up with the wolfbanner though: I made more saves > I had more men to hit back with > more hits and wounds > enemy takes more saves and in this case even lost his Powerfist champ because of it.

 

Merely anecdotal advice, which doesnt prove anything; but you dont value math so why not :cuss

 

Edit: lot of spelling.

Edit 2:

The meltagun example is very simple to see for you I think: each meltagun has a certain chance to destroy the monolith. The chances of the invidual meltaguns are not dependant on each other, so you can just add their chances up. 4x1 is the same as 2x2. So by splitting fire you keep the same average destroyed monolith, with the added bonus that you have the added chance of destroying 2 monoliths! So the chances of wasting potential are less. (one of my rules in 40k: Overkill is wasted potential, the less overkill the better)

 

Your example about 'not being usefull against shooty armies' is of course false. Because a certain thing isnt usefull against every army doesnt mean its not good, this could be said about a lot of things. Its also false in the way that is actually is still usefull: you need to get less men into combat with a standard compared to no standard, while keeping the same average effectiveness. Or: you are now better in assault, so you can spend more points on other things to make yourself better against shooty armies! Heck, even wound allocation is worth something ;)

[LoneSniperSG]

This is the reason why people that have used them once then tend to ensure they have one in each squad in every army from then on out.

 

I failed to see the point of the thing after one game where I never had to use it's special. :cuss

[Mordekiem]

I admit that I've been a bit misguided in regards to mathhammer, citing both poor experience and poor actual knowledge. It just aggrivates me when people say, especially mathhammer folks, "This MeQ squad will kill 1.75 of them, then kill 2.80 in assault, then a 55% chance of the enemy running away..." (continued). No! That MeQ squad will NOT kill 1.75 of them, they will kill however many they kill. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise. Even then, you're lying poorly, because I gurauntee you that I'm not cutting any of my models into quarters just because you want to be right about how many die. :P

Hey, those 1.75 kills are as important as your average family with 2.5 kids! :D

 

Anyways, you sound like someone who would be fun to play against and hang out with. Just remind me not to ask you for a ride. My luck doesn't carry me as far as yours. ;)

[Requiem of the Wolf]

This is the reason why people that have used them once then tend to ensure they have one in each squad in every army from then on out.

 

I failed to see the point of the thing after one game where I never had to use it's special. :huh:

Well..I take them on the same theory that I take 4 sniper rifles and a heavy bolter on my scouts,even if im going to use OBEL to try and blow up vehicles in the back ground. A just in case of a poor deployment,I can still make use of them. It has in my mind justified its place in my army...Unlike my Vindicator...which up to this point has either been a bullet sponge for...maybe a round...Or...well...a bullet sponge for two rounds. Then again it had to compete against a Land raider that Tank shocked two squads of necrons,a squad of Pariah's and then turned around and drove through a monolith. All the while,keeping the Deceiver firmly attached to its rear armor and pounding away for two full turns hoping for a 6 to hit lol. So...your mileage may vary...But i feel its worth the 10 points per squad.

[Skalver]

Just a question. Since the wording says "For the next assault phase" is it correct to assume that once an assault phase begins it is too late to declare the use of your wolf standards? So you can't say halfway through an assault phase that the unit is using their wolf standard as it applies in the next assault phase after you declare it and not the current one.

 

This would be very important if you wish to use it for an assault as you would have to declare that you were using it in the preceding movement or shooting phase, before you measure your assault ranges and your opponent decides on how he will react to that assault. Once your assault phase begins it is too late, if you use it then it won't kick in until your opponents assault phase in his next turn.

[stinkenheim]

you are correct, RAW that is how it works. However alot of people i know house rule it that you declare its use at any point during the assault phase and its bonuses come into effect immediately. basically this is to stop it being made redundant by people not charging once its use has been declared.

i realise that in tournament situations this is unlikely to be acceptable but as i say everyone i play with plays it that way.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

you are correct, RAW that is how it works. However alot of people i know house rule it that you declare its use at any point during the assault phase and its bonuses come into effect immediately. basically this is to stop it being made redundant by people not charging once its use has been declared.

i realise that in tournament situations this is unlikely to be acceptable but as i say everyone i play with plays it that way.

I tend to use it as the last thing I do in the shooting phase...because at that point i know without a doubt if i can assault them or not lol.

[stinkenheim]

i was refering to its use during the enemy turn. my group seems to find it a bit odd that you have to declare its use before any assaults are declared.

[Godhead]

Meh, I declare standard use near the end of my opponents shooting phase too. This lets me reroll 1's during the assault, and if my opponent is afraid of that, then my unit doesn't get assaulted which means I can most likely pour some shooting into that squad before I assault them on my next assault phase.

[Grimtooth]

Meh, I declare standard use near the end of my opponents shooting phase too. This lets me reroll 1's during the assault, and if my opponent is afraid of that, then my unit doesn't get assaulted which means I can most likely pour some shooting into that squad before I assault them on my next assault phase.

 

Which is another reason why Wolf Standards should be in every GH squad!! Sure you don't get to reroll 1's BUT you can pretty much shoot the heck out of the scared unit and assault them.