CODEX: CSM

[KANAKA]

With the emergence of Space Wolves and now Blood Angel Codex, seems to me Chaos has lost quite a bit of an edge. Since the recent CSM Codex we have already been "bleached". I've played against Space Wolves (2K) and have not won against, more loss than draws. BA in the WD Codex format, same. Now the BA has a full Codex of which I have yet to play against. In a 2K battle I field troop heavy, relying on BL 10 man squads, 2 Berserker Squads(10), TS squad (9) and fill in with DG squads (10). DG with FNP is reliable, TS w/Inferno Bolts plus Inv Save, good marine killers, I may have to take out my Zerkers for more PM's, or even try an EC squad. There are times I wish I could "kit out" my DP like we used to, ie., Daemon Speed, shooting weapon. I use 2 for HQ choice.

Are we ever gonna get an update to be competitive?, seems like we're losing ground, whatcha think?

[David the Despoiler]

My dear friend, it has been established countless times that the Codex needs revision. And this is true. But rather then being in a hurry to get a new Codex, why don't we let Games Workshop take their time and give us something to truly inspire fear in the heart of the Imperium? It will come, I assure you, and when it does... :(

 

On the competitive level, we are still one of the most terrifying lists to play against. You just need Obliterators, Defilers and Termi-cide. A good ratio to keep in mind is to have about one scoring unit for every 500 points you're playing.

[Prot]

You've been a member here since 2005. Granted you don't have a lot of posts, but you MUST have seen at least an hint of the 40,000 threads the BnC have on this topic.

 

I don't mean to be harsh, but the codex has been beaten like a rented mule since the day it was released, and despised by 8-10 chaos vets. The writers of it are no longer in the studio.... The idea that the Chaos codex sucks is about as enlightening as being told the earth is round.

 

That being said, bow your head in silent prayer to the dark gods that someone at GW sees the light in the warp and writes us a Legions book. We've been hoping for this for years.....

[Chaos Terminator Nero]

AGGGGGhhhhhh More of the same old sniviling from poor excuses of chaos warp spawn

 

I my not like the way we fight but by the throne of Khorne do i fight. i have beaten both the BA and the SW with there new so called new codex's a bad dark apositle blams his deamons. If it was easy guys it wouldnt be as much fun.

 

dont get me wrong i agree changes are needed but thats in the hands of tzeentch now. Stop stop feeling sorry for yourself you corspe god loving filth and knuckle down runn some senarios. learn there codexs look for weakness purge the followers of the false god

 

NERO HAS SPOKEN

[Possessed Marine]

ahh, yes... this tired old chestnut again...

 

*sits down with popcorn and waits for the melta to arrive*

[Hfran Morkai]

The idea that the Chaos codex sucks is about as enlightening as being told the earth is round.

 

It's spherical with slightly flattened poles though...

[Canadin]

I still have no idea what you guys are talking about,

 

I play my 2000 points chaos renegades army (39 marines/havok/chosen, 3 bikes, 25 daemon, 2 Prince, 2 Combi-Predator), and have a record of about 5-1 VS BA and not a single loss to the wolves.

 

beating BA is simple-ish strategy, just dont get into melee combat. Zerkers are both weaker than death company and assault marines (specially if the sanguinator/priest is nearby) so just shoot em up with plasma guns and bolters, nail the vehicles with lazcannon andautocannons, and use lash to send units backwards after you pop their transports

 

Give up on PMs and Zerkers, the loyalist is stronger in combat, and death company will mulch PM's. Grab the cheaper troop choices and just try to shoot em alot

 

The codex may be boring, but build up a MEQ spam list and you will have the numbers to kill BA's and SW's

 

Oh and very important thing; bring anti tank! Outflank chosen with meltas+rhino; combi preds; Havoks with 4 autocannons; Melta everywhere (bikes or termicide or chosen) And Chosen with plasma guns! I know its expensive, and they kill themselves, but when an entire army has "Feel No Pain", you will be VERY happy with the results of 10 plasma gun shots for 180 points (6 Marines, 5 plasma, ICG)

[Zhukov]

Are we losing ground? Not really, a little at most. Our top build is still top.

 

Does that mean we dont need a new codex? No we need a new one, but not because you cannot win reliably with anymore; you can.

[IronWinds]

I've had no problem playing against newer codices. The CSM codex has a lot of problems. Lack of imagination, lack of options, lack of fluff, lack of 'good' units, to many just piss poor units. But you can build good armies with it, your limited to only a couple builds if you want a semi-competitive army, but its not a bad codex because it can't win games. It can do that, its a bad codex for a billion other reasons.

 

It could be so much worse... look at Necrons, they NEED a new codex. And they have fluff and stuff, but their codex does not stand up against 5th ed dexs.

[Prot]

Hey I'm on my second full blown Necron army.... lol

 

On Chaos.... there are so many units you can just flush down the toilet. That is a truth. I don't think anyone has ever said (to my knowledge) that the current codex has no competitive builds.... it's just about as interesting as watching a one legged man in an arse kicking contest.

 

I still note that the most 'enthusiastic' supporters of the current codex weren't here 5+ years ago. Those were very interesting times indeed. Once you've been there.... I think it's hard to leave it and forget it. The dark powers were once a very interesting place to mingle... a thousand times moreso than they are now.... my 'pointy' marine friends. :)

 

Now, let me pull out my D.P., Oblits, obligatory vanilla CSM and show them what chaos is really all about! Arrrg! :blink: (game coming up in a few mins.)

[Vilicate]

So, I've been around the block on this one for sure.

 

As an older Chaos Marine player, initially I was pretty happy with the new book. I felt like it had balance with the 4th ed SM book, and neither one was better than the other. Keep in mind that I typically fielded a lot of bodies in 4th, and being an Iron Warriors player, it worked with my army.

 

However, when the new Codex Marines book came out, and I saw all the toys that they got, along with special characters that changed their army composition, I was pretty unhappy. Would it have been so hard to make a character for each legion to give that army special rules?

 

It'd be a great book if you could just combine it with Index Astartes rules.

[kenshin138]

Old complaint or not...there are a lot of ex-Chaos players.

 

I have two very solid reasons all my FW Death Guard resin is still in baggies.

 

1. I'm lazy.

2. Codex: Chaos and the 100% boredom lists it creates.

 

If I ever get off my butt and rebuild my legin, I'll be using the Wolves codex personally.

[Prot]

Wow... there's some blasts from the past for you.... Kenshin and Vilicate. Nice to see you guys. :D

[Captain Tezdal]

I don't know, I still love throwing my 'zerks at people, although I have lost more lately to the new wolves and Angels, all part of the codex oneupmanship game

[Brother RedAxe]

I guess i'm one of the few new guys playing that almost detest the current chaos codex, only been playing 40k for 2 years now and playing chaos for 5 months of it. I see so many holes in the codex. Despite all that I still have no problem beatingthe pants off space pups, i shoot them down to manageable size then charge whats left, but I'm a strange chaos player using a Tau-esque style of play with chaos.

[aeroplane]

There is still a bunch of stuff that is really nice in the Codex, even though in the aggregate it royally sucks in 5th edition.

 

I've been thinking a bunch about how to make the Codex work in 5th edition... It is actually pretty simple, and requires no major changes.

 

Our biggest problem in 5th is the lack of ranged anti-tank. Here is how to fix it:

 

---Put Obliterators back into Elites, where they should be. Make them 0-1 if you have to.

 

---For X points (15-20ish) let 'Crazed' be bought OFF our Dreadnoughts.

 

It's really all we need.

[Zeruel]

There is still a bunch of stuff that is really nice in the Codex, even though in the aggregate it royally sucks in 5th edition.

 

I've been thinking a bunch about how to make the Codex work in 5th edition... It is actually pretty simple, and requires no major changes.

 

Our biggest problem in 5th is the lack of ranged anti-tank. Here is how to fix it:

 

---Put Obliterators back into Elites, where they should be. Make them 0-1 if you have to.

 

---For X points (15-20ish) let 'Crazed' be bought OFF our Dreadnoughts.

 

It's really all we need.

 

 

Maybe also lowering the cost of Havoc's heavy weapons a tad so it is actually feasible to play them.

[KANAKA]

My apologies for opening up an old wound. Kenshin WOW!! the DG master. Wonder what ever happened to Chaeron. Just wanted to say thanks for the feedback and I have bad luck rolling D6's anyway......Thanks again....K

[Crovan]

More "back in my day," time! I played C:CSM for the lifespan of third edition. Then 4e came out and sucked, so I left the game. Now, I'm back in fifth, but my CSM are gone. My gut reaction to the current csm dex was disappointment. Not for the rules, but the way my beloved army was stripped of basically everything that made it flavorful. I am only now working my way back to Chaos, but already fear burnout from a book that lacks its old appeal. I remember writing pages and pages of tacticas for the old books, and the looks on my opponents' faces when I threw down a Basilisk in my IW army. The book has plenty of power, still, but no soul.

 

Also, I play dark angels, so bite me with your power whining :cuss

[aeroplane]

Maybe also lowering the cost of Havoc's heavy weapons a tad so it is actually feasible to play them.

 

 

Basically, I agree with you. They are a bit overpriced, but not as bad as Raptors and Bikes.

 

But that's not what I'm getting at - we only need some useable, consistent, ranged anti-tank in the Elite slot. Period. That would make the Codex work in 5th.

 

Changing points costs, although nice, wouldn't change the fundamental weakness that this Codex has in the current edition.

 

 

 

@Crovan -I agree 100%. " Lack of soul " is the best way I have seen it expressed. Thanks!

[Cpt. Postumus]

Threads like this are all over the sites I frequent, and I can't say I'm getting tired of seeing them. I've only played with the current dex', but had received the '3.5' as a (gag?) gift from one of my regular opponents. The amount of choice really caught me off guard and, although not having had a chance to play it, I can see where there would be a potential for abuse. On the other hand there is a lot in there that I had initially considered abusive which has now turned up in newer codices (Berzerkers with FNP / Death Company?), so it all can't be entirely over the top. There has to be a middle ground between the two editions.

 

I'm actually really enthused over the direction things are taking. Sure, I have no choice but also because when GW finally does get around to updating Chaos, its really going to be something to be feared.

 

 

Postumus

[Hellios]

Threads like this are all over the sites I frequent, and I can't say I'm getting tired of seeing them. I've only played with the current dex', but had received the '3.5' as a (gag?) gift from one of my regular opponents. The amount of choice really caught me off guard and, although not having had a chance to play it, I can see where there would be a potential for abuse. On the other hand there is a lot in there that I had initially considered abusive which has now turned up in newer codices (Berzerkers with FNP / Death Company?), so it all can't be entirely over the top. There has to be a middle ground between the two editions.

 

I'm actually really enthused over the direction things are taking. Sure, I have no choice but also because when GW finally does get around to updating Chaos, its really going to be something to be feared.

 

 

Postumus

 

I didn't play with but against the old codex and all I can say is chaos was far more fun to play against back then... and I played the Iron Warriors lists, the daemon bombs and all the rest. As for abusive.. meh you could make really nasty lists but so can a lot of codices... the difference was you could make a load of nasty lists that were different from each other... every time I played I got a surprise instead of Daemon Prince, oblits and some form of troop choice in rhinos.

[The Unspeakable]

... Wow. You guys make 3rd Ed sound awesome.

I'm gonna see if i can dig out a copy anywhere, compare it with the current codex. I only started playing tabletop the last 3 months, and have been playing Chaos. I keep feeling the burn cause the marines seem to get so much more cool stuff than we do. Sigh, i really want a chaos codex about some legion, like the filthy marines have about their nutty chapters.

[Crovan]

... Wow. You guys make 3rd Ed sound awesome.

I'm gonna see if i can dig out a copy anywhere, compare it with the current codex. I only started playing tabletop the last 3 months, and have been playing Chaos. I keep feeling the burn cause the marines seem to get so much more cool stuff than we do. Sigh, i really want a chaos codex about some legion, like the filthy marines have about their nutty chapters.

 

Different Legion rules are a big part of what made the old books so fun. F'ex, Iron Warriors used to be able to lose two FA slots for one HS slot, and at one point they could take a vindicator before it was a CSM vehicle or even a Basilisk! The flip side was no cult troops other than Berzerkers. My SM friend used to always say Chaos had all the fun toys compared to marines. ;)

[Zeller]

It's getting rather rediculous seeing these threads pop up literally every week. There are plenty of books that need updating, really need updating, before chaos. Make due with what you have because you will not find GW certified solutions here.