CODEX: CSM

[IronWinds]

Something hit me the other day... its 2010... we are getting close to a very scary day.

 

3.5 came out in 2002, 4th in 06. Thats 4 years.... we are almost at the point where we have had this %^$@ of a codex longer than we had the good one. ^_^

 

I brought that up because its what I see as a major flaw within GW's codex line.

 

If a codex is really popular, it gets updated more often. Just look at SMs. If its not popular it can take 12 years and counting for an update(DE). CSM3.5 was insanely popular, and because it was so popular it got LatD, a MAJOR part in the world wide campaign, and... sadly... it got updated quicker. The sad part being it didn't need an update, it was a fine and very very popular codex. So they update it, and the update SUCKS :D . And now popularity dropped... not because there is no demand for the army or its fluff, but because no one wanted to play with the new codex. So now with lower popularity we get stuck with the 'bad' codex for even longer.

 

And thats the vicious cycle. Every army has fans, with a good codex every army can be a well selling army. But when they make a bad codex popularity drops and then they never see an update, but if an army gets a good dex popularity sky rockets and then they get a new codex faster. So the armies that need new rules never get them, and the armies that have fine rules get updates they don't need(and sometimes the updates are worse than the original). SMs being the exception, if they get a bad codex everyone just switches to BA, SW, DA, BT, etc.

 

 

DE, Necrons, and Tau need updated codices sooner rather than later. But GW could do themselves a huge favor in sales by making sure they are done right, and IMO chaos should be the 4th codex on that list followed by Eldar.

[Rain]

Actually the unnameable travesty of which you speak was released in 2007, and pretty late in the year at that, September or so if I remember correctly. Therefore, and for other reasons that you mention, our update is still a ways away, my guess would be late 2011/early 2012. Really sad when I think about it. That said we are still a SPEHSS MEHREEN army of sorts so at least we will get an update. Eventually.

[templarboy]

Actually, I think Eldar should be before CSM. Our Codex could be fixed with a FAQ. It is such a sparse simple codex, it wouldn't take much to make it better. We are not going to get the old Codex back. It was too limiting and too darn complex. I see GW moving away from that.

[Rain]

Sorry but I have to disagree strongly with you on those points templar.

 

Ok so I can agree that some builds in it were overpowered at the time (not that they fixed that here but hey) but I really have to call you on it being "complex". I mean yes, it was more in depth than what we have now, but a couple days of looking it over would be enough to internalize it for anyone with a fairly well functioning brain, and as this game attracts the nerdier type anyway that shouldn't be an issue.

 

There's also the fact that that codex was really 9 lists in one so you had to really only get into the nitty gritty of one part of the book to understand your army, and that the organization was actually quite logical with a top down structure in which your HQ determines the FOC positions of other marked units and some restrictions due to ancient enemies.

 

As for it being too limiting, this is also untrue, if you played the base list it gave about as much freedom as our current one. The only difference was that you couldn't have say a Khorne HQ leading Slaanesh troops and vice versa due to ancient enemies and you could only run 1 Daemon Prince which were limitations which made perfect sense and should be brought back.

 

As to them bringing it back or not, who knows, the current SW codex has a lot of options and various doo dads, so maybe we will as well.

[templarboy]

Sorry but I have to disagree strongly with you on those points templar.

 

Ok so I can agree that some builds in it were overpowered at the time (not that they fixed that here but hey) but I really have to call you on it being "complex". I mean yes, it was more in depth than what we have now, but a couple days of looking it over would be enough to internalize it for anyone with a fairly well functioning brain, and as this game attracts the nerdier type anyway that shouldn't be an issue.

 

There's also the fact that that codex was really 9 lists in one so you had to really only get into the nitty gritty of one part of the book to understand your army, and that the organization was actually quite logical with a top down structure in which your HQ determines the FOC positions of other marked units and some restrictions due to ancient enemies.

 

As for it being too limiting, this is also untrue, if you played the base list it gave about as much freedom as our current one. The only difference was that you couldn't have say a Khorne HQ leading Slaanesh troops and vice versa due to ancient enemies and you could only run 1 Daemon Prince which were limitations which made perfect sense and should be brought back.

 

As to them bringing it back or not, who knows, the current SW codex has a lot of options and various doo dads, so maybe we will as well.

I actually don't disagree with you at all. I stated that it was too limiting and complex from the published codex stance that GW has been using with every force except the sacred cows (SM). Even the tyranid codex is a bit streamlined. There has been a definite drive toward younger players lately.

 

By the way, saying that there were "9 lists in one" is not an argument against it's complexity....The complexity doesn't really bother me but then again I played Star Fleet Battles for 5 years.

 

I hope the next codex is a bit better but I do feel that most here will not be satisfied unless the earlier codex is re-instated as official. Personally, I don't like it much. I find it un-balanced. If they had rebalanced the travesty of the IW list and made a more open way too use cult troops it would have been better. Let's face it, I bet sales of cult troops boxes have increased now that you don't have to jump through hoops to count them as troop selections. My predictions for the future are re-vamped models and bit of character added to the existing ones. A nice slick cover, new artwork, and some new models is about the most we can hope for. My ugly two cents guys.

[Walter Payton]

The example I am going to drag up was posting a possible D/P build (the Dread Axe and Daemonic Stature one) from the old 3.5 'dex in H/G rules with the names of the wargear and special rules changed. The cries of 'OP'...

 

As for Codex updating: Beware the lurking Dark Eldar...

[Sception]

Actually, as much as I loved the 3.5 dex, and as much as the 4.0 dex bores me to tears, the 3.5 dex was too complex. there were multiple sets of overlapping equipment options, some of which counted towards one limit, and some of which counted towards others, and some both, and some neither, and the codex said nothing about what was which. I think something like three quarters of every list I ever saw posted for the 3.5 book had the character points limits wrong as a result.

 

And then there were the units. One entry, one unit, right? With the options for the unit in the entry? That's good design. That's how it should be. The 3.5 book had the unit entry, with some of the options, but for others of the options you'd have to flip to the armoury page. And you'd have to flip to a third page to see if that unit could take a mark, and if so how much the mark cost. Then you'd have to flip to a fourth page to see what that mark does, and flip back and fourth between the fourth and the first page to see which lines of equipment and which options are replaced by which new lines of equipment and which new options and special rules. And you'd have to flip to yet a fifth page to make sure you could take that unit with that mark in your legion, as well as making more special rule and equipment replacements and also modifying points costs again.

 

Is that impossible to figure out? No, but it's still stupidly overcomplicated, and your opponents have little to no chance of understanding it at a flip through, so you either have your game called off so they can try and read your labyrinthine codex, or they have to just accept that you know what you're talking about, which, from listing to discussions on the web and in my local store, many chaos players simply didn't.

 

So, yeah, the 3.5 book was too complicated. And it had way too many units. Look at the average codex and see how many unit options they have, then look at the 3.5 book, and remember that a good half of that already long list of units is actually five (or more!) completely different units in disguise, before you even count vet skills.

 

It really was too much. That said, it was at least fun. The 4.0 book didn't trim the 3.5 book, it tossed it out entirely, going back to the original anemic 3.0 codex, and then took the hacksaw to that.

 

I, personally, like the idea of going back to the 3.0 book as a good starting point for a more reasonable book. Chaos Marines should be one army, from which players can choose their units and options to follow a number of themes. It shouldn't be nine or more completely separate armies that have nothing to do with each other masquerading as a single codex. But even if they did go back to 3.0, the designers should have started with the final version of that book (with cult terminators, cultists, and daemon prince options), and expanded on it. Instead they started with the 3.0 book's skeletal original form, and cut it back even further from there.

 

I particularly despise the calls for a 'Legion' codex with rules for the four aligned legions. These requests are invariably asking for four completely separate codeces with no overlap at all to be crammed into the same book for no good reason. As if the current chaos book wasn't a 'legion' codex. I mean, look at it - daemon engines, cult units, legion special characters, autocannons, etc. That's not a 'renegade' codex, regardless of what the complainers may say. It's not a good codex either, but what is needed is a book that can reasonably bring the various factions of chaos under one codex, as the current book tried and failed so miserably to do, not a codex that by its very existence would only further split the faction up. 40k can't support 9 or 5 or even 2 more marine books. Logistically, chaos has to be in the same codex, even if that means (gasp!) changing the fluff to suit the realities of the game.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I look at it this way: There are four Space Marine Codecies that depict specific chapters with divergent organization and traits (BA, BT, SW, DA) and one Codex for all the other Chapters. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, have always had to suffer being lumped together. Why the disparity between the good guys and bad guys? GW could always generate a seperate Codex for each of the Big Four and a fifth to cover down on the unaligned and renegade chapters, which a slew of special characters to provide legion-specific rules (ie, an Alpha Legion character gives all units Infiltrate, a Word Bearers character gives all units a free icon for daemon summoning, etc). It would also give the model studio guys a good reason to flex their mental muscles and actually put out NEW Chaos models instead of just tweaking the same old ones we've had since 3rd Edition. Granted, filling out extra slots for the Big Four'll probably be a touch difficult -- there's not a whole lot of variation in "raise chainaxe, hit enemy in face" for World Eaters, for example -- but I betcha anything they made that was halfway decent would sell great. Most of us are, after all, giant fanboys of one thing or another.

[Sception]

Unified Legions, like the Black Legion, are arguably as different from strictly unaligned Legions, like Iron Warriors, as those Legions are from the cult legions, so you're not talking about 5 Chaos Marine Codeces, you're talking about 6.

 

So now you're suggesting that GW practically double their already hideously over-bloated number of marine books, and add more then two years to each codex cycle, to appease the fluff and feelings of Legion players that didn't even exist before the Index Astartes articles in 3rd edition.

 

While we're at it, why is there only one craftworld codex? The different craftworlds all have their own fluff, and their own organizations, and in some variant lists over the years even their own units. So lets have five craftworld eldar books. Five orc books, so the Klans can have their day.

 

Seriously, there are too many codeces in 40k as it is. There's already a mechanism available for niche specialist sub theme armies. It's called Forgeworld - and the Seige of Vraks books showed they're more then up to that task. One Chaos book with enough variety and options to make a range of functional themed lists, plus some forgeworld units or even army lists for the more specifically inclined, is, in my mind, by far the most ideal solution to the Legion problem.

 

Four or five new chaos codeces is just not a reasonable solution. Any new chaos codeces isn't a reasonable solution. Chaos sales don't justify it. Frankly, 40k sales don't justify it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I understand that point, but as one of those Legion players who didn't exist before the 3.5 Codex, I must say that it rankles to have had all my special rules, everything that made my army completely unique, taken away without so much as a pat on the head; doubly so because they did it to my Loyalist chapter, too. And as for FW -- yeah, FW's rules and balanced and the models are fantastic. But guess what. I can't take an Imperial Armor list to a tournament. I tried once. Asked very nicely of a friend who was running the tourney and he said, "Nope. Need a GW codex." I've even met people who won't play pick-up games against FW army lists, so that line of reasoning, my friend, is about as useful as a poopy-flavored lollipop.

[the jeske]

I've even met people who won't play pick-up games against FW army lists, so that line of reasoning, my friend, is about as useful as a poopy-flavored lollipop.

if they say yes to you then they will have to say yes to anyone who brings a FW buffed army . have you ever seen what a first turn charge from 4 BA dreads with blood talons does to a mecha/horde list ?

 

While we're at it, why is there only one craftworld codex? The different craftworlds all have their own fluff, and their own organizations, and in some variant lists over the years even their own units. So lets have five craftworld eldar books. Five orc books, so the Klans can have their day.

but i can build a speed freaks army or a cult of speed and it is going to be different from a mega nob +killakan hvy bad moon list . while the top tier eldar lists do look the same , it is possible to build a hannan army or an iyaden one and both will be different . I cant build a AL or NL list that will have different game play or in extrem moments unit choices then lets say IW or even BL.

[Sception]

I've even met people who won't play pick-up games against FW army lists, so that line of reasoning, my friend, is about as useful as a poopy-flavored lollipop.

 

Which is why I said the chaos codex needs to have "enough variety and options to make a range of functional themed lists". The chaos book needs to have sufficient range to make "sufficiently" fluffy lists for any of the legions. Forgeworld can expand on them, but it shouldn't be essential.

 

I'm not saying "one undivided only codex, and khornate stuff covered by forgeworld". I'm saying "one codex with enough khorne specific stuff - say cult terminators, cult units in power armor, khorne marks available for bikes, havocs, generic marines, cultists, and lesser daemons, cult upgrade options for khorne marked characters, maybe one World Eaters special character with an army-wide khornate perk, but that prevents other marks from being included in the list. That's not too much themed stuff to fit in a generic codex, and should be enough for fluffy world eaters armies. But more specific stuff - berzerkers on juggernauts, bikes, or jump packs, full khornate daemons, and a wider range of legion special characters - is stuff that's a better fit for Forgeworld.

 

The current book fails not because of principles like 'one unit entry, one unit' or 'one chaos marine codex for the chaos marine faction'. It fails because the range of units, special characters, special rules, and equipment is simply insufficient for the task. I could point out the poor balance, too (with possessed on the one hand, and lash on the other), but that failing is more due to insufficient playtesting then flawed design principles, and is a failing shared by all GW products ever since they abandoned large scale play testing.

 

but i can build a speed freaks army or a cult of speed and it is going to be different from a mega nob +killakan hvy bad moon list . while the top tier eldar lists do look the same , it is possible to build a hannan army or an iyaden one and both will be different . I cant build a AL or NL list that will have different game play or in extrem moments unit choices then lets say IW or even BL.

 

Again, this is a failing of the anemic codex, not of the idea of having a single codex without sublists to represent all Chaos Space marines. If anything, they prove my point. A well designed codex, like the ork codex, has room for a range of specialty themes without resorting to multiple codeces or sub-lists. A well designed Chaos codex would allow for a range of meaningful choices resulting in themed lists that play differently. The current chaos book is too skeletal to present such meaningful options or make room for appropriate theme armies.

 

Again, this is a failing of a rushed, skeletal codex, not a failing of the idea of having a single codex for chaos marines in the first place.

 

Of course, a slight change in fluff to give the various legions a more similar overall structure - warhosts ruled over by a powerful lord and his elite core of legionnaire vets, served by recent renegades and newly created space marines aspiring to full legion status, with hordes of lesser cultists, fanatics, or summoned daemons as fodder, with Legions comprised of collections of these warhosts gathered under the Legion's banner. Maybe some would be more regimented and some less, but a similar overall structure, allowing the books to work well under the framework of a single codex, would require very little shifting of established Legion fluff - especially since so much of the current Legion fluff describes them as they were 10,000 years ago, during the time of the Heresy, and says much less about their current organization and resources.

[djkest]

Okay, so I was just about to start this topic, but I'll just reply instead.

 

Chaos Codex needs an update: now! Because of weird, funky rules in our codex, and codex creep, we really need some changes.

 

Pros:

Demon Princes are really good for the points

CSM are good although situational and now overshadowed by many other armies

Land Raider: at least we get it for cheap...

Khorne Berzerkers are pretty good: can be brutal in assault but are easily killed

Plague Marines are very tough.. but costly

Having TL botlers on vehicles instead of storm bolters is genius

Oblits are good, but probably overcosted. Have to kill lots of stuff to make up their points

Lash is good, but so cheesey that most won't use it.

 

Cons:

Raptors are too expensive and the models are awkward.

Chaos Bikes are too expensive

CSM Land Raider is cheaper but vastly inferior to everyone elses...

Special Characters are weaksauce

Drednaughts are terrible

Chosen are too expensive and are niche

Chaos terminators, while initially cheap, are nothing special.

 

Basically, since SM, BA, and SW codex's have come out, we really have no advantages over them. But they get better stuff, more nasty stuff, more tactical flexability, etc.

 

GW can't figure out that a area buff should increase the cost dramatically because it improves those units for no cost. "All models within 12" have preferred enemy" or something like that.

 

Berzerkers:

+1 attack, +1 WS, furious charge. Pretty good right?

 

What about BA?

They can get preferred enemy, furious charge, FnP, and also (they used to have) a reduce WS debuff and coudl "save" a wound every turn. And they are vampires??

 

We need a new codex with streamlined rules, better designed special characters, some reduced points costs, and something that makes our codex one to be feared instead of laughed at.

[Lord_Caerolion]

legion special characters

 

While I agree with a majority of your points, I'm going to call you on the CSM book having 'Legion' Characters. For a start, they're all outcasts (with the exception of Lucius, but even he could be argued to be a loner). Let's have a look at them, shall we?

Khârn: the Betrayer, single-handedly splintering the World Eaters Legion on Skalathrax, and as inclined to kill his own men as the enemy, basically. Little to do with the Legion as a whole.

Ahriman: Outcast from the Thousand Sons for casting the Rubric, and the leader of his own sub-faction of the Legion.

Typhus: Self-imposed exile from the rest of the Death Guard (or rather their Primarch, to be specific), who he finds sickening (ha!) with their affection for their lost home-world, Barbarus. As with Ahriman, the leader of his own sub-faction within, and wholly seperate to, the Legion.

 

Even Fabius Bile is not a Legion character, being once more in self-imposed exile from the Emperors Children. The only ones who can be called Legion Characters are Abaddon (who leads what is now the bastardised melting-pot of all the other Legions), and Lucius (who we know nothing about regarding his loyalties to his Legion).

 

Some might call this nit-picking, but the CSM codex is filled with SC who can be argued to turn up in any force, given that they are all either independant of their actual Legion, or assimilate anyone into their own. What we need are some SC who actually represent their Legions, instead of the guys who killed half of them (Khârn), turned 90% of them into dust (Ahriman), ran off to play Doctors (Fabius), or turned them into basically-undead abominations (Typhus).

[Sception]

If you're looking at the current book on its own, particularly from a balance perspective, it has the following issues, imo:

 

Too good:

- Lash of Slaanesh. IMO this power shouldn't exist in the first place

- Daemon Prince. Arguably undercosted, particularly the wings option.

 

Not Good Enough:

- Possessed. They're terrible.

- Chaos Spawn. Also terrible - although it's arguable whether they should be a unit in the first place

- Bokes. Overcost

- Raptors. Overcost

 

Just Right:

- CSMs: great, capable of dealing with a range of targets within their short range

- Oblits: expensive, as is appropriate for one of the army's few long range options, esp. one so versatile.

- Plagues: durable & well priced after the last revision to FNP (underpriced before)

- 'Zerkers: do what they do well, and for a fair price.

- Defiler: again, good, versatile, fairly priced.

 

Don't know:

- Thousand Sons: haven't played 'em, though they look overpriced to me on paper.

- Noise Marines: ditto and ditto.

 

Everthing else, IMO, falls into a varying scale of 'ok'. Not great, but not exactly so terrible or so overpowered as to require a fix from a gameplay perspective.

 

 

And these kinds of balance issues are consistent across most codeces, from the well received to the despised, a result of GW's insufficient play testing. All in all, the Chaos book, taken on its own, is fairly functional. Mechanically, it's main weakness is a lack of range in unit selection, leaving the army one dimensional and predictable, with difficulty responding to shifting metagames.

 

 

To me the more significant failings of the book are failings of design. stripped down unit selection and stripped down unit entries leave the book and its units feeling bland and uninteresting. Overcomplication and unit glug were problems with the 3.5 book that needed to be rectified, but that's not what they did. They took the changes that needed to be made to the 3.5 book, and applied them instead to the 3.0 book, which never had those problems to begin with.

 

Some things that a chaos codex needs that the current one lacks, from a design perspective:

 

A) HQs that modify the army makeup. This is something that Chaos has always had in the past, and the current book abandons it even as other codeces like orcs are gaining it. Marked HQs moving cult units from elite to core is a good mechanic, makes lists feel more thematic, makes the heroes seem more important which is very appropriate for chaos marines.

 

B) Special Characters that modify the tone of the army. Recent books, including Codex: Space Marine book has shown us both that a large number of special characters is acceptable, and that special characters can be used to apply small army-wide special rules. This is the new format covering what used to be sublists, and should be used for the Chaos Legions - one special character for each Legion, plus maybe Bile, Cypher, and Blackheart. Since the special characters would be carrying army-wide rules, they should also be leaders and organizing forces within their Legions. For this reason, I would rather drop Khârn the Betrayer (though his equipment options should be incorporated into the list to allow chaos players to approximate him), and replace him with a new World Eaters special character working to martial the remains of the World Eaters into a functional and coherent fighting force, rather then actively splitting them apart by slaying friend as easily as foe. The other special characters work fine for this, and new special characters would have to be described for the unaligned legions.

 

C) Legionnaires that feel special. While the USRs are nice, the cult units, chaos vets, and terminators present somewhat more room for special rules then the current books make use of. While over-complication should be avoided, some unique rules and abilities are appropriate in these cases. Maybe instead of just +1 Ws and Furious charge, Berzerkers could have a special rules for 'cybernetic brain implants' that they can turn on at the start of any chaos turn, giving them a number of melee advantages for the rest of the game, but suffering fury from that point on as well. By attaching unique and fluffy cult special rules to specific, distinct names, it also because easier to allow for cult HQs with a simple "berzerker implants: +X points, Mark of Khorne only" in their equipment list.

 

D) While we're on the subject, options for Daemon princes, and alignment-specific options for HQs, are essential for players to customize their all important lords. A fluffy, characterful lord will make the whole army feel fluffier. Give HQs a range of equipment that lets you make distinctly Night Lords, or Word Bearers feeling heroes, and the rest will fall into line after it, especially if the HQ modifies the rest of the army's structure, as in part A.

 

E) Aligned Daemons. The book doesn't need the full Daemon abilities and rules from C:CD - it's easy enough to justify that Daemons bound and summoned to a chaos marine's control are not free to exercise all of their powers. But marks, at least. Something to differentiate a bloodletter from a horror mechanically is necessary, even if it's just on a token level.

 

F) Cult Terminators. While cult versions of every unit under the sun are really too much to fit into a unified book, terminators at least should represent the cream of the crop, and for aligned armies (Legion or otherwise), that means cult marines. The lack of Cult Terminators really hurts the feel of cult themed armies.

 

 

There are other things I'd like to see - the elevation of Undivided to its own cult status, with unique equipment, special rules, and undivided-only vet and terminator units. The restoration of Raptor Squads to being their own mini-cult, with special rules that justify a higher point cost then their loyalist counterparts. The return of Cultists, with a more important role for them in the structure of the army as a whole, a clear distinction made between 'legionnaires' - the 10,000 year old vets who live primarily in the elites slot, and 'traitor marines' - more recent renegades and newly created chaos marines that live primarily in other force org slots, with clear special rules and maybe even statline differences between them. But these things aren't as necessary as the above points for making a unified chaos marine codex that actually works, imo.

[Hellios]

Don't know:

- Thousand Sons: haven't played 'em, though they look overpriced to me on paper.

- Noise Marines: ditto and ditto.

 

Allow Inferno bolts to choose between being AP3, wounding on a 2+ or ignoring cover saves and I as a 1kson player would be very happy... how that would balance out with a non-1kson army... I dunno...

[Sception]

Khârn: the Betrayer, single-handedly splintering the World Eaters Legion on Skalathrax, and as inclined to kill his own men as the enemy, basically. Little to do with the Legion as a whole.

 

Agreed, which is why I'd rather see him replaced with a new character to carry the standard for the World Eaters, as mentioned in my previous post.

 

Ahriman: Outcast from the Thousand Sons for casting the Rubric, and the leader of his own sub-faction of the Legion.

 

He's also essential to the Legion becoming what it is today, and the most active leader to emerge from it, with Magnus seemingly content to sit in the eye, lording over his personal daemon world. Yes, Ahriman is an outcast, but he's also the most iconic and active sorcerer from the Thousand Sons. If a 1ksons army is attacking imperial settlements, it's far more likely to be led by Ahriman or one of his cadre then by any resident of the planet of sorcerers.

 

Typhus: Self-imposed exile from the rest of the Death Guard (or rather their Primarch, to be specific), who he finds sickening (ha!) with their affection for their lost home-world, Barbarus. As with Ahriman, the leader of his own sub-faction within, and wholly seperate to, the Legion.

 

The degree of his exile is questionable. As with Ahriman, he's the most active lord to emerge from the plague legion, and has had a central role in shaping what his legion has become. Again, his primarch and those close to him again content to sit on their daemon world doing nothing. Typhus leads a huge fleet of Death Guard plague marines. Again, as with Ahriman, he's the most active and iconic character in his Legion, and far more likely to be the immediate leader of any serious Death Guard attack on imperial holdings then his primarch. To say he's more of a renegade marine hero then a Death Guard hero is just silly.

 

Even Fabius Bile is not a Legion character, being once more in self-imposed exile from the Emperors Children. The only ones who can be called Legion Characters are Abaddon (who leads what is now the bastardised melting-pot of all the other Legions), and Lucius (who we know nothing about regarding his loyalties to his Legion).

 

Fabius Bile, while not tied to any one legion, still came from the Legions, and works with and for them, rather then for post-heresy renegade armies.

 

Huron is the only post heresy renegade marine character in the entire codex. Every one of the rest was one of the original traitors from the Horus Heresy, an individual influential in shaping the destinies of their Legion, and who fight with Legion armies based in and attacking from the Eye of Terror. If you were designing a 'renegade' marine codex to be distinct from the chaos marine legions, these are not the characters you would put in them.

[Argon]

legion special characters

 

While I agree with a majority of your points, I'm going to call you on the CSM book having 'Legion' Characters. For a start, they're all outcasts (with the exception of Lucius, but even he could be argued to be a loner). Let's have a look at them, shall we?

Khârn: the Betrayer, single-handedly splintering the World Eaters Legion on Skalathrax, and as inclined to kill his own men as the enemy, basically. Little to do with the Legion as a whole.

Ahriman: Outcast from the Thousand Sons for casting the Rubric, and the leader of his own sub-faction of the Legion.

Typhus: Self-imposed exile from the rest of the Death Guard (or rather their Primarch, to be specific), who he finds sickening (ha!) with their affection for their lost home-world, Barbarus. As with Ahriman, the leader of his own sub-faction within, and wholly seperate to, the Legion.

 

Even Fabius Bile is not a Legion character, being once more in self-imposed exile from the Emperors Children. The only ones who can be called Legion Characters are Abaddon (who leads what is now the bastardised melting-pot of all the other Legions), and Lucius (who we know nothing about regarding his loyalties to his Legion).

 

Some might call this nit-picking, but the CSM codex is filled with SC who can be argued to turn up in any force, given that they are all either independant of their actual Legion, or assimilate anyone into their own. What we need are some SC who actually represent their Legions, instead of the guys who killed half of them (Khârn), turned 90% of them into dust (Ahriman), ran off to play Doctors (Fabius), or turned them into basically-undead abominations (Typhus).

 

 

IIRC, Bile was kicked out of the Emperor's Children because what he was doing squicked them out too much. He'll work with the EC, but he's no longer a part of them.

[Dammeron]

It would be so, so easy to fix all of the problems with the current Chaos Space Marine codex:

 

1. Provide a "Daemonic Gift/Chaos Reward" section in the armoury, allowing character models to take a FINITE number (i.e. 3 for Independent Characters, 2 for none Independent Characters).

 

2. Provide two seperate H.Q. entries for Chaos Lords and Renegade Captains. The former would be the ancient, near legendary veteran commanders of the ancient Traitor Legions, the latter the Huron Blackheart style pirate captains.

 

3. Remove "Chosen" altogether (they're underbaked, ill conceived nonsense) and replace them with a "Traitor Legionnaries" unit. Traitor Legionnaries would be an elite unit with buffed WS, A and I plus access to certain generic skills from the Universal Special Rules list. They would also be rather expensive compared to standard Chaos Space Marines. Units of Traitor Legionnaries may be taken as troops in an army led by a Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince.

 

4. Remove the icon system and replace with a Mark system. The application of basic Marks would provide the standard stat boost they currently do, but an option would be introduced allowing units that purchase a particular mark to purchase a single "gift" from the Daemonic Gift/Chaos Reward section (all models in a single unit prohibited to purchasing the same gift, of course). this would allow the creation of traditional "cult" units (Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) whilst also allowing players to create their own.

 

5. Provide a specific "lore" of psychic powers for each Chaos Power, and cobble together some specific rules for the use of Chaos Sorcery, which should by rights be distinct from all other forms of psychic power in 40K.

 

6. Allow the standard Greater Daemon and Lesser Daemon units to be customised with Chaos Marks and a LIMITED number of Chaos Gifts, allowing players to make God specific daemons or tailor their own.

 

Bob's your Emperor.

[the jeske]

I think you guys think too much about how the gav dex should have looked like and not how the new dex will. if GW makes the new chaos dex it is not going to be based around the 3.5 dex[as much as chaos players loved it] , but around the one we have no. Forget demonic gifts , traits and legions lists . it will never come back .

[Chimerical]

I think you guys think too much about how the gav dex should have looked like and not how the new dex will. if GW makes the new chaos dex it is not going to be based around the 3.5 dex[as much as chaos players loved it] , but around the one we have no. Forget demonic gifts , traits and legions lists . it will never come back .

 

Actually, the way things have gone since CSM4.0 would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

1) Design philosophy has radically changed since then, so now it's all about heaps of options. So much so that new codices get multiple units without models released.

 

2) A while back GW/Jervis has acknowledged they upset hardcore fans, and probably would have handled it differently in retrospect.

 

3) Most people seem to consider the Space Marine special character/chapter tactics system a success, which would probably provide a model for a future Chaos Dex with legion options to some degree.

[the jeske]

there will be no sub lists for legions [so no legions per se] . there will still be happy chaos family , but maybe we get a upgrade asp champion to make squads X an AL csm squads and raptor sqauad Z a NL squad. They will not make new characters discarding the old ones and they are not going to give us 10 specials characters [old and new]. maybe the old ones will change FoC , but I doubt that . The changes that may happens is marks for csm/termis etc and not icons that can die . some version of psychic hood/runes of warding/shadow in the warp for the sorc [what would actualy make a sorc a viable choice] . zerkers and pms will still be top units [because the way GW thinks about units it is impossible to make 1ksons or NM good without GW overlooking something] only change we will have is that instead of 2 DPs 6 oblits 2zerkers 2 pms we will play . DP one hood sorc 2 unit with special asp champion 1 unit of zerkers and 1 unit of pms and what ever they give us for oblits in support section . If we get realy realy lucky they will give more options for lords and that is it.

[Sception]

Special characters have been hyped up in recent years, with many more appearing in every codex that's been released. 9 to 12 special characters in a hypothetical new chaos codex is not only possible, it would be quite reasonable, even expected, imo.

 

As for characters being replaced and new characters being introduced, that's also been a common move of late, whether you're looking at the last few chaos books (Cypher and Doom Rider dripped in the move from 3.0 to 3.5; Typhus and Lucius added; Huron Blackheart added in the shift to 4.0), or if you look at other recent codeces - multiple new special characters for nids, many new special characters in Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Space Marines, etc.

 

So yeah, replacing characters and adding new ones is not at all out of the question in the next Chaos Dex. The only unlikely thing that I'm hoping for is the replacing of Khârn, who makes a terrible commander figure, but even that isn't without recent precedent.

 

Sub lists are very unlikely, but special rules for HQs changing army makeup are almost assured, as they've been in pretty much every recent dex, and it's really just bizzare that such rules aren't in the current book. And the army-wide special rules for Special Characters seen in the Space Marine book is something so easily incorporated into a new chaos book, and so naturally addresses the complaints of Legion players without resorting to sublists, that it again is something we could easily see.

 

All of the things I'm hoping for have clear precedents in recent books.

 

The most recent chaos book was a big disappointment, with lackluster sales (for chaos), and very poor reception. The designers of the book are no longer with GW. I don't think we'll see a return to the 3.5 book, but I don think it's safe to say that the next chaos codex will be another significant departure from the current one. Trends in codex design, poor reception, and different design staff all strongly indicate such.

 

1. Provide a "Daemonic Gift/Chaos Reward" section in the armoury, allowing character models to take a FINITE number (i.e. 3 for Independent Characters, 2 for none Independent Characters).

 

There is no 'armoury' anymore. All options appear in each unit entry. I don't see a complicated separate system for gifts/rewards as such returning in the future for this reason. That said, some more range of upgrades, including a few alignment specific upgrades, seem possible, imo.

 

2. Provide two seperate H.Q. entries for Chaos Lords and Renegade Captains. The former would be the ancient, near legendary veteran commanders of the ancient Traitor Legions, the latter the Huron Blackheart style pirate captains.

 

This seems highly unlikely. Oh, there might be 'big and little' heroes, instead of the current 'fighty and magic' heroes, but I doubt, and don't believe, we'll see them specifically divided into legion and renegade heroes. Nor do they need to be. Blackheart is old and powerful and blessed enough to warrant full lord stats, and if there are any legionaires in unit form then it stands to reason that there'd also be legionnaires at the medium hero level as well. Frankly, renegade marine chapters coherent enough to still have their own leaders are more likely to fit the basic marine codex more then any chaos book. More common will be individual units or companies fleeing the inquisition, reaching this or that warp storm, and being incorporated into the body of a more established chaos force. So while 'renegade' or 'newly created space marines' have a place in the chaos book, I don't think they need a specific type of generic hero assigned to them.

 

3. Remove "Chosen" altogether (they're underbaked, ill conceived nonsense) and replace them with a "Traitor Legionnaries" unit. Traitor Legionnaries would be an elite unit with buffed WS, A and I plus access to certain generic skills from the Universal Special Rules list. They would also be rather expensive compared to standard Chaos Space Marines. Units of Traitor Legionnaries may be taken as troops in an army led by a Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince.

 

The cult marines are the marked legionnaire units. I'd rather see chosen replaced with an undivided only specialist elite unit, part of undivided taking it's place as a more official 5th power. Any aligned vet unit is probably going to be inducted to full cult status anyway, with the possible exception of Tzeentch, although the increased fatal mutation rate among the followers of the changer of ways mean tzeenchian marine vets are unlikely to exist in the first place.

 

4. Remove the icon system and replace with a Mark system. The application of basic Marks would provide the standard stat boost they currently do, but an option would be introduced allowing units that purchase a particular mark to purchase a single "gift" from the Daemonic Gift/Chaos Reward section (all models in a single unit prohibited to purchasing the same gift, of course). this would allow the creation of traditional "cult" units (Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) whilst also allowing players to create their own.

 

I'd also prefer to see the marks divorced from the icons. Just easier that way. That said, I again think the 'gifts' idea isn't likely, and is needlessly complicated. One unit, one unit entry - trying to cram two things as entirely different as rubrik terminators and sonic terminators into the same unit entry just isn't going to work. Likewise, I imagine full cult status and gear isn't something available to non-elite units in the first place. In short, beyond elite power armored and terminator armored infantry, I don't think we need full cult versions of any other units in a basic Chaos Space Marine codex, and I think the harm to coherency and unit glut caused by trying to fit such things into one book outweighs whatever benefits might otherwise be seen from 'Plague Marine Bikers' and 'Noise Marine Havocs'.

 

5. Provide a specific "lore" of psychic powers for each Chaos Power, and cobble together some specific rules for the use of Chaos Sorcery, which should by rights be distinct from all other forms of psychic power in 40K.

 

Psychic powers don't have lores. One signature psychic power for each of the three psychically active alignments is plenty, imo. Also, I don't see any reason why sorcery and other forms of psychic powers should be mechanically distinct - they're all the same thing in 40k. And introducing an entire new sub-system for a single unit type, when that unit type isn't even iconic or central to the army as a whole, is significantly more complication then is warranted.

 

6. Allow the standard Greater Daemon and Lesser Daemon units to be customised with Chaos Marks and a LIMITED number of Chaos Gifts, allowing players to make God specific daemons or tailor their own.

 

We're in agreement here. Marks at least for lesser daemons, something to differentiate the greater daemons from one another, is essential for fluffy feeling aligned armies. The full daemon rules are unnecessary, but something here.

[Epic Thoughts]

I think what's even worse than seeing another C;CSM update thread is seeing all the moaning about seeing another C;CSM.

 

The truth is, C;CSM is incredibly versitile and tough. With the new (?) objective styles of games, Chaos abounds with excellent troop choices that are pretty well priced for what you get. There are some glaring mistakes in the codex, that is for certain. But, if you can't pull out a victory at least some of the time, something is very wrong with either your play style, or with your opponents. I haven't looked at the new Blood Angles dex yet, but when compared to SWs, I don't see a lot to be upset about. Grey Hunters are on par with CSM. I don't see a problem with that.

 

I think what a lot of people mean when they say they want a new Chaos dex is that they want a list with more flavor. And I think they're right. Our special characters are lack luster, boring, over priced and under producing. While our troop choices are among the best in the game, they feel flat.

 

Plus, we have to recognize the painful truth. There are other armies that need an update far more than Chaos does. Until we do get around to our update, I suggest sucking it up and having some fun with the list. Run some demons just for laughs. Sure, they're not fluffy for everyone, but they can be fun to play. Run a spawn or two... well, maybe not that. Run your stock marines as Berzerkers or Thousand Sons. We're not going to get an update soon, so you might as well have fun with what we've got.

[Sception]

I think what a lot of people mean when they say they want a new Chaos dex is that they want a list with more flavor. And I think they're right. Our special characters are lack luster, boring, over priced and under producing. While our troop choices are among the best in the game, they feel flat.

 

This. This is why the current codex fails. This is why the codex needs an update. It is just boring. Playing games with it is boring. I haven't played a game of 40k in over a year, and doubt I'll play any until I see a new book for my faction. Are there books that need an update more? Maybe. Dark Eldar and Necrons. That's about it. Nids certainly didn't, and many nid players don't even like their new book.

 

I can't have fun with what we've got. I've run pretty much everything. I know what works and what doesn't. If I want to win, I can do that. If I want to lose, I can do that, too. But either way, it's just not fun for me.

 

Frankly, wishlisting and speculating and debating about what a chaos marine codex could or should look like is more enjoyable for me right now then playing actual games of 40k with what we have, even if I win most of them. And since I can debate hypothetical chaos codeces on the forums, but I can't play actual games with the actual book on the forums even if I wanted too, where's the harm? It's not drowning out other discussion. From what I can tell, it's only this one thread at the moment.