CODEX: CSM

[the jeske]

Grey Hunters are on par with CSM.

GH are cheaper then csm for same load out of weapons.

 

The truth is, C;CSM is incredibly versitile and tough.

ok this part I dont get . In BA I can make a counter list , a razorback build , an alfa strike list on top of normal mecha , LR rush . one can take Baal in FA and they are great , but MM attack bikes are good too . I can take preds in hvy or drop dreads . that is what I call versitile codex . And what chaos has ? DP in HQ slot and that is it . Oblits in the hvy support and nothing in the FA. Or do by versitile do you mean that playing 2/2 zerker/pms is the best and clearly better set up then all other and that with this dex no matter if you play BL or AL or anything else you can[and probably will] end up with them ?

[Chimerical]

That's a cop-out to our HQ, Elites and Heavy choices.

 

DPs, Khârn, Abaddon, Lash Sorcerers can all be highly competitive choices for HQs. Lords are at worst decent, they're basically at the level of a space marine captain, not much worse if at all.

 

Heavies: Obliterators, Defilers, Vindicators. Obliterators may be the most common option due to their versatility, but the other choices are good and about appropriately priced for what they can do.

 

Elites: Terminators, Chosen, Possessed. Terminators and Chosen fill holes in our armies - deep-striking and outflanking. This affects opponents' deployment in ways our other stuff doesn't.

 

Possessed are excellent in assault. As far as I can tell, Chaos players only knock them because 'berzerkers are better'. Well that may be so if you want the bonus of being a scoring unit, but that's a predicament every non-CSM player would love to have with their troops choices. Put Possessed in the C:SM book where you only get Tac Marines and Scouts for troops, they would be loved. For someone who doesn't want a khornate list, Possessed fill an assault squad role admirably, indeed, in my opinion, are better assault units than Berzerkers 2/3 times. Strength 5, 5+ Invul Save, and any gift other than Scouts or Fleet. That is pretty damn good. And they fit into rhinos.

 

Fast attack is the only spot at which we really lack. More than anything except proper daemons - even more than non-retarded Dreadnaughts and dreadclaws - I wish our army had some viable 50-70 point unit in the fast attack area like attack bikes or landspeeders. But, barring that, being able to put 2 meltas on 5 raptors is pretty nifty - it still costs half of what you need to invest in any troops choice with 2 meltas + rhino.

 

I'm just gonna be blunt about it. If you can't win without using all of Daemon Princes, Lash Sorcerers, Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Spammed Obliterators, then maybe you're just not a great player. I guarantee you can beat other top-tier lists without needing all those units. You may need one or two of them, but certainly not all.

[Brother Nihm]

As far as I can tell, Chaos players only knock them because 'berzerkers are better'.

Not so, in a nutshell: They suck in CC, are too costly, half of their random (aka crap) abilities do nothing, they have no upgrades apart from icons, they need a transport (more points) to be effective, plus they are unfluffy for quite a few factions as well. Great models though.. In short, they blow. CSM are better.

 

While it's entirely possible to win without using cookie cutter lists, you still end up feeling like you're 'playing T3 with max handicap', not to mention your list is still bland as hell.

 

Like the Jeske said earlier, with a different (newer) 'dex it is possible to make many varied and effective lists. With Chaos, you've got variations of the same 3 builds, over and over again at Tournaments.

[the jeske]

Put Possessed in the C:SM book where you only get Tac Marines and Scouts for troops, they would be loved.

when both need transports and termis have +3 inv storm shields . Think about it man. dead army choice. and they are not worse because of the scoring part [not that it aint important] they are worse because unless you roll power weapons or rending[and have icon of khorn that can die] they are actualy worse . roll 1 ... well the way the roll is made it gives nothing . roll fleet ? well it is a hth unit so it needs a transport anyway + you dont know if you roll fleet . power weapons or rending and slogging = dead as they die like normal meq [but cost a lot more].

 

DPs, Khârn, Abaddon, Lash Sorcerers can all be highly competitive choices for HQs. Lords are at worst decent, they're basically at the level of a space marine captain, not much worse if at all.

ok I will do this again . DP kills a lot , cant be ID . flies gives extra target[well actualy two because we run 2] etc.

Khârn . needs a LR [cost buffed by 200+ points that is like taking an extra HQ] , can be ID , kills our own guys . I can see him in a LR rush build[but prince better anyway as they give more targets for anti tank] .

abadon.... 700 pts unit..... bad. as a single anti tank turns this in to a footsloggers and this means he may never see hth .

 

lash sorc. can be ID , sucks in hth , hurt by all races using anti psyker stuff and being mecha[a lash DP even if he doesnt use his psychic powers still at least kills stuff and draws away fire] ..ah and he needs a bodyguard . briliant unit choice.

 

 

Heavies: Obliterators, Defilers, Vindicators. Obliterators may be the most common option due to their versatility, but the other choices are good and about appropriately priced for what they can do.

how are vindicators a viable choice with the low armor they have and the fact that to take them we sacrifice anti tank[what they suck at] ? and that as a bonus the vindis give our opponents one turn of doing nothing[to short range of gun] and after 2 turns without heing countered our opponents anti tank should have played merry hell with either the vindis or the rest of our army. Defilers work only taken as 3 and only in hth build and has tons of bad match ups [skimer builds for example or IG] .

 

there is a reason why chaos doesnt have a viable 2250 or 2500 list , unlike other IG or SW or BAs. and this only shows that after we go past the 4 troops 6 oblits and 2 dps , we have absolutly nothing to make the list better.

 

 

Strength 5, 5+ Invul Save, and any gift other than Scouts or Fleet. That is pretty damn good. And they fit into rhinos.

and zerkers dont fit in to a rhino somehow ?

[Chimerical]

Put Possessed in the C:SM book where you only get Tac Marines and Scouts for troops, they would be loved.

when both need transports and termis have +3 inv storm shields . Think about it man. dead army choice. and they are not worse because of the scoring part [not that it aint important] they are worse because unless you roll power weapons or rending[and have icon of khorn that can die] they are actualy worse . roll 1 ... well the way the roll is made it gives nothing . roll fleet ? well it is a hth unit so it needs a transport anyway + you dont know if you roll fleet . power weapons or rending and slogging = dead as they die like normal meq [but cost a lot more].

 

Strength 5, 5+ Invul Save, and any gift other than Scouts or Fleet. That is pretty damn good. And they fit into rhinos.

and zerkers dont fit in to a rhino somehow ?

 

It wasn't clear, but I was comparing the Possessed more to Terminators who require a Land Raider - the only other really good combat unit if you don't want to use Khorne in your list. Obviously 5 TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider is better than Possessed in a Rhino, but it also costs almost twice as much.

 

Also, they do NOT die like normal MEQ. 5++ is not insignificant. Chance of Feel No Pain. Chance of Furious Charge (increased initiative meaning less return attacks in combat). Without an Icon they end up right about the same cost as Berzerkers with a Powerfist Champ. In fact it's the exact same cost for 8 in each squad. And they are one unit where using Icons makes sense for the boost it gives (Slaanesh, Khorne and Tzeentch are all good for them).

 

Look, I agree that Berzerkers are overall a better choice because of being troops and having access to a Power Fist. But it's marginal, nothing like the yawning gap so many people complain about. Berzerkers are more versatile, but Possessed are better in combat 1/2 or 2/3 of the time (if they get any of Rending, Power Weapons, FNP, Furious Charge) and they're more survivable in general with the 5++.

 

I'm not even going to reply to your other stuff about HQs and Heavies because you clearly aren't shifting. Vindis have bad armour? Khârn needs a Land Raider? Abaddon = 700 points (which I take you mean includes a Land Raider and squad of Berzerkers or something)? Lash has to deal with Anti-psyker and mech (you mean just like, umm, most psychic powers in the game)?

 

Your way of thinking just shows a lack of flexibility. It sounds to me like when you say there's 'one build' what you really mean is 'there is one build that is arguably the best in the game (DPs with Lash, Zerks, Plaguies, Oblits) so why would I use anything else'. If that's what you mean I think you should say it like that.

 

Most of our builds are assault oriented, but other than Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, everyone getting into Chaos should have known that. We can do our special flavour of the 'monster mash' (DPs, Greater Daemon, Dreads, Defilers), we can do Land Raider spam better than anyone except the latest Blood Angels - and really, the difference in effectiveness is negligible, it's all about the AV14, and Godhammer LRs are the best type for it.

 

So there, that's 3 completely different builds. You can't tell me latter two aren't good because I have seen them and they are tough. And it's not an issue of 'but BA can do it better', it doesn't change the fact that they're effective and weak against the same types of armies (they're basically rock-paper-scissor lists).

 

You also can't complain that they're boring. They are. But so are most of your comparisons.

[Sception]

Are you kidding me? Without frag grenades, possessed attack last on the first turn of combat. Without pistols, they functionally lose an attack that round as well. Without a fist, or even krack grenades, they can't take out enemy armor, and walkers kill them in combat by default. Without weapon upgrades, they rely on a random roll to have any means of cutting through troop armor. Without the option for meltaguns, they can't threaten tanks, and without the option of flamers they can be overwhealmed by cheap infantry.

 

Strength and an invulnerable save are nice, but without the basic equipment that shock assault infantry needs to be effective, possessed are forced to rely on a 1/3 random die role to be able to do their job, and even then they don't do it all that great, and certainly not so well that you feel like you're getting a bargain out of their steep points cost.

 

Just berzerkers? You are kidding me. Melee chosen, meh as they are, are also better. So are melee terminators, though neither are very good.

 

But the truth is, they aren't needed in the first place. It isn't just berzerkers, Plague Marines and basic chaos marines are both better assault units. Heck, even stripped down noise marines are better. You could maybe make a case for them in a stricktly tzeentch-only army, particularly one that refused to field tzeentch-marked basic CSMs, but that's a very niche army. And even then, you're probably better off with no dedicated melee units at all, that's how terrible possessed are at their job.

 

And yes, I've run them every which way - large or small squads, rhino, land raider, or on foot, with or without hero support - against every which opponent, and 2/3 of the time they're terrible. The remaining 1/3 of the time, they're not even very good. My basic undivided chaos space marines consistently out-performed them in close combat.

 

Now, maybe if they came with pistols and grenades, and if you could buy their champ a fist, maybe then they'd be ok. At least then they'd have the basic equipment required for an elite shock assault melee unit to do it's job. But no. As they are, if you really want a melee squad, you really are better off kitting out chosen, terminators, noise marines, berzerkers, chaos marines, plague marines, raptors, or even havoks for the job. There is nothing that possessed reliably take in close combat that those units couldn't be equipped to take more reliably, or for fewer points, or while remaining versatile enough to perform other roles at the same time, or, in most cases, all three. About the only infantry squads in the chaos marine book that are consistently worse then possessed at their job are lesser daemons and thousand sons, and even the sons can be argued if you give their champ warp time. And it's worth noting that neither of those units is supposed to be elite assault specialists, either. When considered on their own merits and at their own jobs, both are noticeably better then Possessed are at their supposed role.

 

 

 

All that said, possessed aren't what's wrong with Codex: CSM. They're just one poorly balanced unit. Oh, their design is flawed, no doubt, as their designers clearly never stopped to ask what purpose they actually serve in the army if they don't roll rending or power, because the answer is none. But every codex has some poorly designed and poorly balanced options, because GW functionally doesn't playtest their books at all. What makes C:CSM uniquely bad is the overal dearth of options and special rules that leaves the whole book feeling flat and boring. The current chaos book is not only bad in this when judged against the previous chaos codex, it's also lacking when judged against the codeces that came after it - Orcs, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Tyranids, and Blood Angels. All of these books are rich with options, special rules, special characters, and all the little things that make a codex fun, and allow a player to really customize their list, and feel like their army is their own.

 

But maybe that's not a fair comparison. That said, even if you look at the books before chaos; Eldar, Dark Angels, the previous Tyranid and Space Marine books; C:CSM is still lacking, still has noticeably less in the way of special rules, units, abilities and room to customize an army list. As bare bones as the Eldar and Dark Angels books were, they both went out of their way to make multiple types of army possible, incorporating the various sub lists that had previously existed into their main book much more successfully then the Chaos book does. The chaos book hardly even tries.

 

The current chaos book is so bland that it even compares poorly to the 3.0 chaos codex. At least that one had aligned daemons, and you choice of chaos lord affected what slots your cult troops fit in, making armies feel more personalized. And that's before you even count the chapter approved additions that gave you options for your daemon prince, cultists, and cult terminators. Sad as I'd be to lose the defiler and vindicator, if you'd count the chapter approved additions, I'd trade the current chaos book for the 3.0 book in a heartbeat, and that's saying something. How many other 5th ed or even 4th ed books compare poorly to their early 3.0 counterparts in terms of variety of options, special rules, and army customization? The current chaos marine book barely compares to the Black Codex chaos list.

[Chimerical]

I'm not disputing the latter half of what you wrote, we all know it's bland.

 

As for what you say about possessed, well maybe we've had some different experiences. Nonetheless, I really don't think they are outperformed by regular CSMs in melee. Maybe on a point for point basis, but you can only fit 10 guys into a Rhino. They're always cheaper than Terminators (especially considering the rhino/land-raider delivery) as well as Chosen equipped for melee. Dreadnaughts are the bane of many infantry squads, it's really just Orks and Space Marines who can usually have a chance against them in close combat. It just means you have to be more careful with them.

 

But let's not argue about this - I did say I think Berzerkers are better and that's really serious enough a knock on the codex designers regardless of how good or bad we think Possessed are otherwise. I'm going to keep using my possessed, and I stand by them as an adequate melee-specialist unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Possessed would be awesome in an Imperial Guard, Tau, even Ork or Eldar list, but in a Chaos Marines the problem they have is there are plenty of assault options for cheaper that work the same (give or take). Possessed need a big change to be fun to use and still worth while.

 

I've said it before, but I really think Chaos Marines should be more powerful than other Space Marines armies, but have some random elements that make's the disadvantaged opponents have a better chance to win back the upper hand. Also they should be entertaining to play with, things that are fluffy and grant us a little bit of the stories we read in our games

 

Things like;

 

On a failed moral test a squad's Aspiring Champion executes a member of the squad and they become fearless instead.

 

A Chaos Dreadnought has 4 attacks basic and WS5, can't take an extra DCCW, but has Fire Frenzy as is except it shoots the nearest unit in it's 90 degree front arc.

 

Legion traits bought for Chaos Lords (putting the Chaos Lords back on the map), which contain a boon to the army and Chaos Lord.

 

Daemon Weapons changed so each is different, like 3.5 edition. Lot's more too. Different rules for being betrayed by them would be good.

 

Etc etc.

 

All the above things are pretty easy to implement and I'm confident 5th edition Chaos will see an awesome Chaos Codex book. After all, there hasn't been a rubbish book yet and the 5th edition books are pretty balanced against each other. I'm optimistic.

[The Unspeakable]

Wait... I might be really really REALLY blur, but isn't the current edition CSM codex 5th Edition? Please don't get angry at me if i just asked an insanely stupid question. :D

[Brother Nihm]

Considering that it was released before the 5th ed. rules I'd call it 4,5. At best.

[The Unspeakable]

ohe... 4.5. If so, i kind of get the feeling their gonna release a lot of other codices before remixing our poor chaos codex.

[the jeske]

It wasn't clear, but I was comparing the Possessed more to Terminators who require a Land Raider - the only other really good combat unit if you don't want to use Khorne in your list.

ok and this is an example for what considering chaos terminators are not ment as a hth unit ? because am slowly missing the point the here. If loyalist could have them they wouldnt use them and they are not better then zerkers and terminators are a totaly different unit that has almost nothing to do with hth .

 

Also, they do NOT die like normal MEQ. 5++ is not insignificant. Chance of Feel No Pain. Chance of Furious Charge (increased initiative meaning less return attacks in combat). Without an Icon they end up right about the same cost as Berzerkers with a Powerfist Champ. In fact it's the exact same cost for 8 in each squad. And they are one unit where using Icons makes sense for the boost it gives (Slaanesh, Khorne and Tzeentch are all good for them).

and icon dies the buff goes puff . and you cant say that a unit is more resilient then zerkers because it has a 1 in 6 chance to get FnP . yes the inv is there , but most of the time meq die due to multi shot weapons and if they get shot up by plasma or melta it is better to use cover , because it is +4. So they have a chance to save [on 5] fist and power weapon attacks . cool only zerkers with thier higher WS do more wounds [unless you roll power weapons so again 1 in 6 chance. and lets not forget that if you roll scout or fleet possessed become worse then zerkers , while being non scoring]. But this unit per unit comperation it aint acurate . How do you plan to use possessed ? you have to take two units and this means either your scratch points for troops[bad idea] or anti [bad idea again]. you can try mech to make them cheaper or LR rush [but again zerkers are better for rush and dont suffer the random effects of one roll unlike possessed].

so you play with what 2 DPs 2x8 possessed 2x5 PM with plasma with rhinos and oblits ?

 

 

I'm not even going to reply to your other stuff about HQs and Heavies because you clearly aren't shifting.

Vindis have bad armour?

yes have you looked at the side armor they have and the number of fast moving/drop poding/deep striing melta units ?

We can do our special flavour of the 'monster mash' (DPs, Greater Daemon, Dreads, Defilers), we can do Land Raider spam better than anyone except the latest Blood Angels - and really, the difference in effectiveness is negligible, it's all about the AV14, and Godhammer LRs are the best type for it.

nope dude difference is not negligible . our LR suck for rush army to be honest. smaller transport capacity , no PotMS . means your playing just like SW or BAs only their LR are shoting and yours are not .

Khârn needs a Land Raider?

well with a rhino . he has a one turn down time , cant charge what means your opponent has one turn to shot , move away , block charge with a transport/tank etc.

Abaddon = 700 points (which I take you mean includes a Land Raider and squad of Berzerkers or something)?

is there are any other way or do you want to footslogg him alone or better yet deep strike him with terminators?

Lash has to deal with Anti-psyker and mech (you mean just like, umm, most psychic powers in the game)?

Iwas talking about a lash sorc and I did mention that when you take a DP the psychic power aint that important . he can still kill stuff without it. With a lash sorc , you set up him , his bodyguard [oh if not then he just got sniped] to use the lash . this means getting in to loS of enemy units . if the lash fails then the sorc and his unit eat what your opponent can throw at them. even if they are in a transport [and it cant be a LR ]

 

 

So there, that's 3 completely different builds

well there is 4 . mecha . Lr rush , NM water warrior and zylla , but the two last are not even tier 2 . specialy the NM build [which I happened to play since the dex came out]. And the difference between a LR rush [the chaos one] and mech is very slim . We dont have cheap units that are great in hth [like TH/SS termis buffed or not buffed by HQ/priests etc] that have no counter , we use the same what we use in mecha .

 

 

Possessed would be awesome in an Imperial Guard, Tau, even Ork or Eldar list, but in a Chaos Marines the problem they have is there are plenty of assault options for cheaper that work the same (give or take). Possessed need a big change to be fun to use and still worth while.

what unit would you drop in the IG list to fit a possessed unit [lets go wild here and against

the rules of mixing dexs] in . valk vets or maybe LR or maybe cut on chimer for normal units ? and in the tau list , you drop what broad sides or mayeb suits even kroot are better because they are cheap . And why would eldar take possessed when they can take harlis which always have frag and always have rending [and eldar still stoped using them].

 

 

 

After all, there hasn't been a rubbish book yet and the 5th edition books are pretty balanced against each other.

DA were made after the 5th ed rules were ready . chaos was made after the 5th ed rules were ready . nids are a 5th ed made codex and they have not one 1500 pts viable list to win a GT sized tournament.