Deep Striking Teleport vs JP ICs and the reserve roll

[shatter]

Can an IC such as a Librarian, Chaplain, Commander or Priest wearing TDA attach and Deep Strike with a Jump Pack unit on a single reserve roll?

 

They both have the Deep Strike special rule... so what's the problem? Is there a problem? Any FAQs or errata on this already?

[Grey Mage]

Theres no problem, you can attach them as per the reserve rules in the BRB:

 

First he must specify to the opponent if any of his independent characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in wich case they will be rolled for and will arrive together, or not in which case they will count as a seperate unit when rolling for reserves.

 

Pg. 94, paragraph 5, third down from the subheader 'preparing reserves'.

 

Anyone who says otherwise is simply not looking at the rules.

 

Note, they may have a general problem with the idea of using 'descent of angels' during DS with an IC... if the IC is not equiped with a jump pack, and thus does not have this rule, then the unit will be unable to use it and will scatter as per normal.

[Legatus]

There is no FaQ on this. The problem is that the Assault squad is assumed to be dropped from a low flying Thunderhawk (and can use 'Descent of Angels') while the IC in Terinator armour is teleported on to the table (and can use 'teleport homers'). These two types of Deep Strike really shouldn't be combined in one single appearing unit, but currently there are no specific rerstrictions given in the rules. Obviously, sucha unit could neither use 'Descent of Angels' nor a 'teleport homer'. You also have to feel like a cheesy git now.

[thade]

You also have to feel like a cheesy git now.

 

Not cheesy; these are Space Marines we're talking about. I wouldn't put it past them to set up a teleport coordinated with a jump team.

 

Though I always did wonder what this "scatter" crap was about. :D

[shatter]

So, the mixed unit rule isn't pervasive enough to prevent the jump packs from DS? According to the mixed rule, they're essentially infantry until the TDA model leaves... and infantry cannot DS except via teleport which JP troops do not have.

 

Option one

 

"Okay lads, I'm ready. Hit the switch"

*BZZZZTTtttt!*

"...where'd he go? Oh Emperor! Quick, to the thunderhawk!"

 

Option two

 

"Okay lads, I'm ready. Open the bay doors"

*SwwooooossHHH.... thunmp*

"... whoah, he hit the ground hard, what?"

 

I'm pretty confident that the rule as intended is being pretty soundly ignored.

[JamesI]

No. Jump Infantry have the deep strike rule. Terminators have the deep strike rule. So adding a terminator to a jump pack unit does not remove deep strike from either.

[shatter]

So, in your opinion, my list including:

 

Dante,

Reclusiarch TDA

5 Priests TDA

10 Assault Termies 3/7 LC to TH

 

Equals one reserve roll with no scatter?

 

I'm pretty sure many people would walk away from the table if I tried to do that. It's so abusive of a gray area as to be, well... disgusting. No?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

So, in your opinion, my list including:

 

Dante,

Reclusiarch TDA

5 Priests TDA

10 Assault Termies 3/7 LC to TH

 

Equals one reserve roll with no scatter?

 

I'm pretty sure many people would walk away from the table if I tried to do that. It's so abusive of a gray area as to be, well... disgusting. No?

Nope. Illegal. Dante's rule specifies it only works with Jump Packs.

[shatter]

Ahh, I think I blurted a bit there.

 

No. Jump Infantry have the deep strike rule. Terminators have the deep strike rule. So adding a terminator to a jump pack unit does not remove deep strike from either.

 

I didn't say it removed the rule (jump packs), only that it cannot be used. If one model or many in the greater unit cannot make use of DS, none can.

 

The mixed rule clearly establishes reduction in ability without changing unit type. I assert that walking does not equal flying (speed) and flying (speed) is required for JI to DS. Who walks out of a thunderhawk? Ridiculous? So, in my opinion, is having a unit be grouped together but arriving via different methods to the battlefield at the same time at the same place given the rest of the rules.

It seriously feels like the spirit of the rules is being ignored as Teleporting and JP DS are asserted as being different in both the brb and codex; systems that merely happen to both deliver models rule-wise to the table in the same phase.

 

At the most bendy of the rules, in my opinion, they can be rolled for as one reserve roll but still must scatter independently. In the case of Dante above, with precision, he goes where ya want.... But this is not in keeping with 'keeping it simple'. To keep it simple, it's either a big yes or a big no. I'm inclined to go with no because TDA teleport =/= JP DS in the rest of the rules.

 

It's like the unit is riding in two different vehicles on one reserve roll.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Mixed units establishes a reduction in ability, yes. But there isn't a conflict in ability, as they both use the Deep Strike special rule.

[JamesI]

Ahh, I think I blurted a bit there.

 

No. Jump Infantry have the deep strike rule. Terminators have the deep strike rule. So adding a terminator to a jump pack unit does not remove deep strike from either.

 

I didn't say it removed the rule (jump packs), only that it cannot be used. If one model or many in the greater unit cannot make use of DS, none can.

 

The mixed rule clearly establishes reduction in ability without changing unit type. I assert that walking does not equal flying (speed) and flying (speed) is required for JI to DS. Who walks out of a thunderhawk? Ridiculous? So, in my opinion, is having a unit be grouped together but arriving via different methods to the battlefield at the same time at the same place given the rest of the rules.

It seriously feels like the spirit of the rules is being ignored as Teleporting and JP DS are asserted as being different in both the brb and codex; systems that merely happen to both deliver models rule-wise to the table in the same phase.

 

At the most bendy of the rules, in my opinion, they can be rolled for as one reserve roll but still must scatter independently. In the case of Dante above, with precision, he goes where ya want.... But this is not in keeping with 'keeping it simple'. To keep it simple, it's either a big yes or a big no. I'm inclined to go with no because TDA teleport =/= JP DS in the rest of the rules.

 

It's like the unit is riding in two different vehicles on one reserve roll.

In the end, they're still both just deep strike.

 

Teleporting is fluff. Dropping from teh sky with jump packs is fluff. The rule is Deep strike, they both have it.

 

Fluff wise it makes no sense and is stupid. Rules wise it is legal (and in my opinion generally not a good idea).

 

sure, once they hit the ground they move as infantry. But nothing causes either unit to lose the deep strike rule, so its legal.

[Grey Mage]

Do TDA units, including ICs, have the Deep Strike ability? YES Because the rules say so.

Do Jump Pack equiped models have the Deep Strike ability? YES Because the rules say so.

Can an IC with DS join a unit with DS, and DS together? YES Because the rules say so.

Do rules from one unit carry over onto another unit unless specified? NO Because the rules say so.

Does it matter to the rules if your teleporting, jumping out of a perfectly functional thunderhawk, or whatever? NO No, because the fluff, and/or your version of reality, does not dictate the rules.

 

You want a fluff explanation? TDA has allowed space marines to be stepped on by no less than a walking cathedral, and climb its way out of the crater once that monstrous warmachine had passed. You want fluff? He manned up, showed no fear, and jumped out of a thunderhawk in his TDA assured of his relative invulnerability. Dante with TDA units? He brought it with him in the teleporter, as the chapter master he can do that if he wants to /endstory.

 

There is no 'cheese' here. If you use one version or the other you do not gain the benefits you otherwise would. Is the loss of descent of angels and slowing down that unit every turn he stays with them worth making one reserve roll instead of 2? Is squandering dantes ability to place a unit exactly where you want it upon DSing really worth putting him in a unit of terminators? I wouldnt call it cheesey, Id call it sub-optimal.

 

Someone wants to do it because it works for their army or they think itll be a fun idea, maybe even effective... cool, good on them. Its legal.

[thade]

You want a fluff explanation? TDA has allowed space marines to be stepped on by no less than a walking cathedral, and climb its way out of the crater once that monstrous warmachine had passed. You want fluff? He manned up, showed no fear, and jumped out of a thunderhawk in his TDA assured of his relative invulnerability.

 

This is awesome.

[ShinyRhino]

Legal to have both arrive via one Reserves roll, because they both have the Deep Strike rule.

Stupid to do, because you cripple the whole point of jump packs by restricting them to a 6" move so the TDA can keep up.

 

Fluff explanation? Coordinates are loaded into the Marine intel network for a dropzone. The Thunderhawk does a fly-over, disgorging jump pack wearing Marines to the drop zone, as the TDA unit simultaneously teleports into the drop zone. They form up, and have a little tea party.

[nurglez]

Might have to try this, 2 chaos lords with wings and daemon weapons, and some terminators, deepstrike them in, hope they dont scatter and then sigh as 600points worth of spiky stuff dies before being placed on the table.... priceless.

[Meatman]

Option one

 

"Okay lads, I'm ready. Hit the switch"

*BZZZZTTtttt!*

"...where'd he go? Oh Emperor! Quick, to the thunderhawk!"

 

Option two

 

"Okay lads, I'm ready. Open the bay doors"

*SwwooooossHHH.... thunmp*

"... whoah, he hit the ground hard, what?"

 

 

Shatter, you sir, are brilliant!

 

 

This could work quite well, the IC doesn't have TDA so can perform sweeping advances. Might be a good way of getting non TDA characters into the TDA units. I think raiders will still be the best idea though, I'd rather know my expensive unit isnt going to splatter itself, and rather spend more making sure it's useful.

[shatter]

DOH!

 

I don't think it's sensible at all. What you quoted was my attempt at portraying the ridiculousness of a mixed DS unit that's expected to arrive together because both unit types have DS as a deployment method courtesy of their wargear. One reserve roll that requires two different mechanics to arrive together perfectly seems silly to me. Game mechanics wise, they're placement and options is worked the same... but they're obviously different wargear. many of the posters above, most notably Grey Mage support the idea as the BRB doesn't say you can't. Yet no one says it's a nice thing to do to an opponent.

 

I initially asked/started the thread in what I hoped was an impartial method.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure a JI, TDA mix cannot sweeping advance. Although I'd happily be corrected.

[Mordekiem]

Also, I'm pretty sure a JI, TDA mix cannot sweeping advance. Although I'd happily be corrected.

In this you are correct sir. Terminator armor stops the unit from Sweeping advance. It can be good and bad.

[Sparhawk]

I agree with letting the unit DS as they have the same rule regardless of the fluff.

 

I guess my big question is why this is considered cheesy?

Dante and JP angels would lose their precision, speed, and sweeping advance...

 

I think I must have a cold because try as I might I can't smell the cheddar...

[ShinyRhino]

I agree with letting the unit DS as they have the same rule regardless of the fluff.

 

I guess my big question is why this is considered cheesy?

Dante and JP angels would lose their precision, speed, and sweeping advance...

 

I think I must have a cold because try as I might I can't smell the cheddar...

 

Exactly. It's legal by the rules, but completely pointless to do. The drawbacks outweigh any perceived benefit by a large margin. I seriously cannot think of ANY reason why you would actually want to do this. Maybe if you really really like Lysander, and want to include him, but don't want to include Terminators, and don't realize he'd be better served deploying on-table with a tactical squad?

[Sparhawk]

Or I guess we could buy a JP for a captain and stick him with some DSing termies...that seems really...effective... ^_^

[Legatus]

Teleporting is fluff. Dropping from the sky with jump packs is fluff. The rule is Deep strike, they both have it.

Teleporting or using a jump pack is not just fluff. It is a qualifier to the ability to "deep strike" that can change the way the unit works in the game. Terminators can use Teleport Homers, Jump Infantry cannot. Blood Angels Jump Infantry can re-roll the reserve roll and scatters 1d6" less, Blood Angels Terminators don't.

The basic method of deployment is the same (deep striking), so there would be no conflict in the execution. Obviously neither "teleport homers" nor "descent of angels" could be used in that case, as there are models present that cannot use the rule. I also assume that it is not supposed to be possible that deep striking models of these different types can be deployed together, but there is currently no rules explaining that. Untill it gets adressed in an FaQ I will see it as an exploit, and would expect a courteous opponent not to do it.

[Grey Mage]

Terminators can use Teleport Homers because they are specificly listed as being able to do so, while all other units capable of deep-striking in the army are specificly listed as NOT being able to do so. This wouldnt be needed if there was any crunch to the word 'teleport'.

[thade]

Not an exploit, and not really a good idea; why not allow it, as the rules seem to permit it?

 

Also, I can't get over how funny/awesome it is to picture a guy in Terminator armor jumping out of a Thunderhawk and just landing as-is. Should leave a crater, IMO. :)

[Legatus]

Terminators can use Teleport Homers because they are specificly listed as being able to do so, while all other units capable of deep-striking in the army are specificly listed as NOT being able to do so. This wouldnt be needed if there was any crunch to the word 'teleport'.

That is how the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes it, as there are no other units that can "teleport" other than Terminators. In the Codex Daemonhunters there were, which is why they made teh distinction between units that teleported, not units using other methods of arrival:

 

"Note that the homer only works for units who are teleporting, not for ones entering play using jump packs, drop pods or other means of transport."

Codex Daemonhunters, page 18

 

The 4th Edition Codex Space Marines included the same line. The old Deathwatch Exterminator squads (see for example Chapter Approved 2003, page 74) were unique in that they were said to be able to arrive in a variety of different ways, such as "by teleporter, termite, alien technology, drop pod or grav chute", which was entirely left to the player's imagination. So while the mode of arrival may originally be intended to be nothing more than fluff, there are rules (such as the Teleport Homers or "Descent of Angels") that are dependant on the particular "fluff" of the model. In that case it ceases to be just "fluff".

 

As I said, the rules currently do not make a distinction as far as jump pack Characters joining Terminators goes. But I do feel there would be one, had GW thought of it.