Pew Pew termies v Assault Termies

[Velkairiwyth]

First off - apologies if this has been covered recently, but my search-foo was not adequate if it has been!

 

Ok, I just love Assault Termies - I often take 3TH and 2LC termies to go tear me up some enemies. They tend to work well against any opponent, and with my first use of a landraider the other day - watching them ram down the enemies throat and tear out the centre of his army without resistance, I see me making some purchases... (borrowed LandRaider)

 

My question is this - whats your thoughts on shooty terminators?

 

I was giving it some thought after playing Eldar the other day, that possibly the only armies that Assault Termies might do better than Shooty ones is against MEQs and Tyranids (All them damned rending claws, and boneswords - you need that 3+ invul - plus since your almost guaranteed to go last, its feasible to just take a full hammernator squad)

 

My reason for this is seeing what they do - and attacking last with both squads save a troop or two - it might just be worthwhile getting in a barrage of Stormbolter fire (+optional heavy shot) then charging in and doing some damage.

 

Having guns means the terminators are not out of the game the moment they dont have something to charge within range, and against an opponent that has Armour value 5/6 then those gun shots are gonna be pretty effective...

 

Im in a dilemma of wether to keep using the assault termies (psychological nastieness to boot :P) and throwing them in my enemies face, or getting my old shooty ones back out and letting them have a chance to redeem themselves. Im not a fan of that 5+ invul save (and am I the only person that thinks power armour should have a 6+ invul save for when your in the open? :P) I can see the assault being the best choice for taking on any opponent that ignores armour, or whos armour will negate most of your weapons fire - but the shooty terminators have 5+ invul and power fists, and can still hold their own I think ^.^

 

Ok, ramble over - I would like to hear opinions on the effectiveness of both units, who you found to be best when, etc etc :P

[Koremu]

A *lot* of people take Plasma.

[Justicar Valius]

Your current loadout + Land raider crusader (personla preference) or redeemer will be very nice. Make sure you take the multi melta and i recomend magnetizing the sponsons so you can try both.

 

Nobody gives shooty termies much of a chance, too many points for what they do? I don't know much as I've never had to play them!

[Justicar Valius]

:P ing double post

[Velkairiwyth]

Your current loadout + Land raider crusader (personla preference) or redeemer will be very nice. Make sure you take the multi melta and i recomend magnetizing the sponsons so you can try both.

 

Nobody gives shooty termies much of a chance, too many points for what they do? I don't know much as I've never had to play them!

 

Hmm... Ive never had them be particularly fantastic (took out a wounded trygon once) - same points for both... you get to do some shooting as a tradeoff for extra effective melee or survivability ^.^ - then again my assault termies only tend to be average... never used my termies properly, they slog in a mech army ^.^

[kaiserstole20]

Shooty terminators with Lysander attached and CMLs are great. Lysander adds great CC ability, 'bolter drill' and perhaps most importantly, takes the lascannon to the face and keeps on moving forward. I footslog mine though when I take them.

[Justicar Valius]

But then surely you can kite them to death with vehicles and avoid them? I've played Assault termies a couple of times and when my melta suicide squds kill the raider they are easily avoided unless they head for a vital oobjective.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Everyone loves assualt termies, but don't forget that tactical termies are no slouch in CC either. 2 strength 8 hits per termie aint that bad, except for I 1 but you have your armor for that. The only thing assualt termies have over the tacticals are those storm shields to ramp up their survivability, but the tacticals make up for it with good cover saves.

 

As for roles, assualt termies really only have one role: to whack the nastiest thing your enemy would dare to field on the battlefield. Tactical termies, imo, are a bit more flexible. They can add an immense amount of fire to where it's needed to get the extra umph to take out an enemy squad.

[Velkairiwyth]

Thinking in my next game against nids - instead of taking assault termies - im gonna put shooty termies in a position where they can retreat into some woods or cover when the enemy finally charges... see how that works - charging into cover would mean we all go at once meaning those S8 attacks could be purty yummy! Especially if its his usual Trygon Termi removal service. They would all get to hit back :D 4s to hit (theres 5 hits on average) 2s to wound (4/5 wounds that he cant save) - of course half a dozen invul saves will likely wipe me out and the trygon dont cost much more than a termi squad with an assault cannon... damn them cheap tyranids:p

[tahrikmili]

Tactical Terminator Squads are great. They will rarely be the biggest fire magnet on the board, if you have a balanced army they may have an easy time walking up the board and shooting things to bits. Give them a 5 pt Heavy Flamer and you have a cheap-ish and very effective flexible unit. I use this loadout as a deepstriker (Locator Beacon on my Scout Squad with Power Weapon, 2 Combat Blades, 2 Shotguns). Scouts infiltrate, get near the enemy, Terminators Teleport in, they completely mess up my opponent's heavy fire backups at the rear.

[Brother Kovash]

I use my tactical termies the same way tahrikmili described. I've been using a CML to take out enemy armor, and then proceeded on foot to shoot up then assault whatever is left. The teleport homer is a tool I wish I saw more people use.

[Giga]

Shooty terminators aren't worth it for the following reasons;

 

- their firepower isn't anything special (the only good thing is the cyclone missile launcher, which is quite expensive)

- their survivability against shooting is very low (small squads and only 5++ save means they get pwned by any AP1 and AP2 weapon in the game)

- they survivability in assault is also quite low (bad invulnerable save means they get decimated by monstrous creatures, units with plenty of power weapons, etc.)

- assault terminators are much much better

- they're overpriced, considering all the weaknesses they have

[Jackelope King]

Ordinary Terminators will clean up against anyone who's worse in assault than they are.

 

So against chumps, they rule the roost. Fantastic. They're also at least going to threaten big beasties like Walkers and MCs, and will open up Vehicles (if they can catch the vehicles, of course, and at their speed, that's a huge if). But against assault specialists, they're in deep trouble.

 

Why? Assault specialists will be packing Power Weapons of some form or another, or have some other way to bypass their 2+ armor, knocking them down to a pathetic 5+ invulnerable. And since Terminators swing those fists on I1, they're really dependent on having a 2+ armor to hang in there. So against anyone with a way to ignore their armor, they're glass cannons.

 

As for shooting... they're basically Tactical Marines with a wider zone of control. Okay, honestly? Not terrible, especially when you start adding in special weapons (especially the Cyclone Missile Launcher). But you can get much better shooting out of your Elites slots for much less (I run triple Rifleman Dreads in mine). In Codex: Space Wolves, it's a little different. For a huge foot-slogging force, especially a "Loganwing" force, the ability to spam Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with Cyclone Missile Launchers is actually pretty effective (I think a solid 2000 point "Loganwing" can spam, what, 38 missile shots per turn?). I really wish they'd just included a Dark Angels special character in Codex: Space Marines so that we could get Terminators as Troops. But that's not the case.

 

Again, they're not bad. Honestly. They're just not as good at either shooting or assault as other options for your Elites slots, especially for the price.

[TyrionTheImp]

Tactical termies are awesome, but they're just not as awesome as assault ones. As it's been stated their survivability isn't as good, their movement isn't great and they can only take land raiders as transports, and deep striking them can be suicidal.

 

It's not that they're bad, there are just better options, you might as well take a Sternguard squad for shooting, assault termies for assault, and dreadnoughts can be quite useful as well.

 

If you do take them, take them in groups of 10 foot slogging perhaps, a tough movable firepower unit that can take some good hits, but usually they're just so expensive it isn't wort it.

 

I play Deathwing so I don't have this problem and my squads can be kitted out to be swiss army knifes. I just wish I could have 10 man squads for Deathwing, but I don't see that happening.

[Fatuous]

I take both get stuck in with the CC termies, shoot with the regular ones, and then charge into the same unit as the CC ones next turn (if needed). No one even gets to target them, and they will kill pretty much anything.

 

Are they vulnerable to AP1 and 2 fire? yes, but what isn't? It really is a false negative to say that they will absorb all the AP1 and 2 fire, as it simply means your troops are going to be safer, for longer. That ap1 and 2 fire is going to go somewhere, what would you prefer? A tac squad is more valuable than a terminator squad, even tho they cost less.

 

Things to worry about......... fast moving plasma and melta vets, and any unit packing power weapons... and MCs. If any one has a plasma cannon, or a demo charge, or demo cannon, do not DS!!!!!! you'll either have 1 turn of shooting, or have to run to space out, and if u roll a 1 u are toast.

 

The reach on a reg termie squad is pretty good tho, and the fire power they can dish is better than a full tac squad in rapid fire range (which no one ever says in under powered), add in a CML and they are excellent for taking down troops, either forcing enough armour saves on small armoured units, or wiping out hordes.

 

Like everything, their value increases dramatically once you start using them in combination with other units. and don't look at them in isolation thinking 'what can these guys do on their own?'.

 

To OP, if you feel inclined to try it for one game, drop the land raider and take both squads of terminators. Have the assaults one in front to give your regular ones a cover save and run them turn 1, shooting with the reg ones. Use em to tag team difficult units, and cover each other. You might be suprised. You mighht not and it ends horribly, but at least both sets got on the table together and you can see their strengths and weaknesses at the same time.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Stick a Chaplain or Lysander with a 10 man Tac Termie Squad and the Emperor’s enemies will cry

[Brother Captain Josef]

I'm a big lover of the ass termies just from the sheer destruction they can dish out but they NEED a 250pt Landraider and I like the chaplain too :yes: so this unit for me comes out at at least 550 points.

 

If you gonna drop your ass termies then there's little need for the raider so use the points to field a full 10 man term squad with 2 x cyclones (480 points) though I do like the above suggestion of using ass + 'pew pew' (I giggled) termies in a horrific tag team of doom.

[Fatuous]

Meant to say. I love the Pew pew termies name, and will be calling any non CC terminator a pew pew from now on :yes:

[Xeonic]

Tactical termies are awesome, but they're just not as awesome as assault ones. As it's been stated their survivability isn't as good, their movement isn't great and they can only take land raiders as transports, and deep striking them can be suicidal.

...

I find this statement amusing because assault terminators have every one of these problems except survivability.

 

Tac termies have the range and flexibility to just walk up the board though, investing a few solid points in cyclone launchers or assault cannon is well worth it, remember cyclones are priced as and functional as two devestator missile launchers, take nothing away from the unit(they don't replace any weapons!), and are on a relatively durable relentless platform. Infact, putting tac termies in a land raider is limiting their usefulness on purpose since a land raider has no fire points all you can use it for is delivering them into assault(something they're reasonably good at, mind).

 

Tac termies in cover are incredibly hard to remove, the only reliable ways to do it are AP2 blasts(they still get a coversave) or assault specialists with assault grenades.

 

Now admittedly assault terminators are more survivable, but that's purely because they are strong to things that would normally counter terminators, low AP fire, and massed powerweapon attacks. Saying they're more durable is a bit misleading, since they're only more durable vs those threats, they die just the same to massed lasgun fire(which is to say very slowly).

 

With all that said, assault termies are one of the best values for the points in an assault unit you can buy...if, and only if you shell out for a land raider for them. IMO any other use for them is situational at best or relies on luck(fleeting shrikenators).

 

In my opinion, tac termies epitomize the marine codex, they're a strong generalist unit that can put out a good deal of firepower in their medium range zone(really, 20 storm bolter shots and 4 krak missiles at 24" is nothing to sneeze at and will make almost anyone weep), and beat anything that isn't an assault specialist with massed powerweapons in CC with an ease that may even lull you into trying to use them with assault as a role in mind.

Yes, there are better units at range(sternguard in their rapidfire killzone are fantastic), and yes, there are better units in CC(assault termies are tops, honor guard strike at I with bulk powerweapons, etc.) but in my mind tactical terminators are a very powerful generalist combat unit who's only weakness is bulk power weapons striking at initiative or low AP fire, a weakness that assault terminators do not have.

 

IMHO the biggest advantage tac termies have is that they're footsloggers that will soak up a bunch of fire, when normally both of those would be a bit of a drawback. :)

[brent in Korea]

Although it doesn't say anything about it in the newest books, power fists can be turned off. You can use your normal strength and attack at initiative.

[Velkairiwyth]

That is a good point, I think you can indeed opt for unarmed strike type affairs... With TH and PF termies - that could be good against units like eldar guardians or guants where attacking at the same time, at the expense of a 3+ wound instead of a 2+ wound (not at risk of losing people before hitting) could be worthwhile... :D

 

(O.T:: And yarr, i love Pew Pew ;) - played too much WOW in my time :/ not logged in in a year and I still use the terminology :lol: )

[Fatuous]

As an option, it is deffo worth remembering (I hadnt thought of it). Whether I'd prefer to do it, I guess would be very situational, like if my squad was down to a couple of guys or something, or if there were an aweful lot of guys hitting me first. Generally I think I'd just pray to the artificors and hope the TDA holds out :D

 

 

 

And then BASH them!!!!!!!

[captain sox]

I find this debate rather amusing....

 

It's like comparing Tactical Squads to Assault Squads... but in TDA.

 

I usually run 10 Tac Termies with 2 Cyclones and 4 Chainfists. Comes out to 480 pts. Teleport them in with your Teleport Homer (and option for all Tac and Scout Sargeants) and watch the fun.

 

Relentless = Great fun.

 

4 Kraks at 48" towards most MC's, Crisis Suits, Vehicles (except Land Raiders) will pummel them. Worried about hordes? 4 Frag missiles up to 48" will do nicely. If you happen to have an imobilised Land Raider nearby, chop it up with the Chainfists.

 

Tac Termies are like beefy Tac Squads. Use them for what they are (mobile dev squads/distraction to opponent), not what they aren't (assault specialists). Keep them at bay for support and you'll do fine.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Although it doesn't say anything about it in the newest books, power fists can be turned off. You can use your normal strength and attack at initiative.

Actualy you cannot. This choice was lost in the transition from 4th to 5th, he brb now says you MUST use a special weapon if you have one.

 

 

Just remember, a thunder hammer isnt much better than a power fist. And shooty terms will have less CC attacks target at them because they can thin enemy units with shooting before hand, heavy flamers are amazing for this. Also chainfist. Chainfists are awesome, its tank beat in a can. Still its the guys who can mix and match that have the best options. An assault term squad with a heavy flamer is brutal.

[Gothical]

That is a good point, I think you can indeed opt for unarmed strike type affairs... With TH and PF termies - that could be good against units like eldar guardians or guants where attacking at the same time, at the expense of a 3+ wound instead of a 2+ wound (not at risk of losing people before hitting) could be worthwhile... :)

 

(O.T:: And yarr, i love Pew Pew :P - played too much WOW in my time :/ not logged in in a year and I still use the terminology B) )

 

I believe this is no longer viable under 5th Edition - there's something in the weapon rules about having to use any "Special Attacks" you have, such as Power Weapons or Power Fists. It's one of the more subtle changes from 4th to 5th.

 

As far as I remember - my rule book isn't at hand right now, but I'm fairly certain this was shot down last time it came up.

 

++EDIT++

 

Damnit, Ninja'd