question: icon bearer

[caboosebe]

Hello,

 

New to warhammer 40k and put my hopes in chaos undivided.

Did my first battle yesterday. Was a mega epic fail. Second after that went better.

Anyway, my question is about the icon bearer. Is it wise to put him as your aspiring champion on the table?

As you most likely want to allocate your wounds as much on normal marines to save the champion

The only problem is that if you lose your chmapion, you not only lose him but the icon 'buff' aswell.

 

So is it wiser to put an icon bearer AND a champion on the table or a icon bearer AS champion

 

A little info about your choise would be appriciated

 

Thankyou for your time

[Lord Kallozar]

First off, welcome to Warhammer 40k and the embrace of Chaos!

 

General rule of thumb is to have a seperate icon bearer, so an icon bearer AND a champion. Reasons for this is that too much will be riding on your champion and if dies then all the squads benefits have been wiped out in one single go! Another reason is that if you were to include a Greater Daemon in your army then you have to sacrifice a squad champion to summon it, and that would be a huge points sink!

 

You mentioned that your games havnt been very successful, well post up your current army list and all of us here will be more than willing to give you advice on what to change (if anything) and give some useful tactical advice etc to get you on winning ways!

 

Hope this helped you out a bit!

[caboosebe]

Thank you for the welcome, appriciate it.

Seems you have good point there. And even forgot about the champion sacrafice for the greater daemon.

My first list was 1000 point list against a heavy mech. Imperial guard

At my first battle I had:

 

10 Chaos space marines incl champion

Mark of nurgle

Lasgun

Plasmagun

 

10 Chaos space marines incl champion with power weapon

Mark of khorne

Heavy bolter

Flamer

 

5 terminators incl champion with powerfist

No mark

Reaper autocannon

Flamer

 

Terminator lord added to termies

Mark of nurle

Daemon weapon

 

Defiler

Dccw instead of flamer

 

 

My first error was not incl. Rhinos

Second was giving khorne troopers a heavy weapon

 

The defiler was first target

The imperial guard player did have insane luck with the dices tho. Evry scatter dice he rolled was a hit, and he rolled maybe 7 times

He also drove his transport close and ate up my termies with plasmaguns, no gets hot rolls and so on.

The nurgle troops had to stay still for lass cannon.

Khorne troops got to 1 tank, recked it.

Had a bad roll on daemon weapon, wounded myself

 

All in all, it was a big failure as first battle, tho I anticipated it as it was my first ever.

 

One guy said that heavy bolter is one of the best weapons, but he plays ultramarines, and I've heared that they are quite stationary

That was my first battle.

[Warsmith Morenze]

First rule of thumb I usually apply to my armies is Assault over Heavy. Those Khorne guys are good in assault, it may be an idea to drop the heavy bolter in favour of another flamer. That way, they can move and still fire, and assault afterwards due to these being assault weapons.

Heavy bolters are only really worth giving to squads who are going to be acting as fire support.

 

I hope this helps a bit, and don't worry, everyone sucks in their first few games. I know I did.

[caboosebe]

Second battle

Again 1000 points

IG player used a gunmen list, lots of models, few tanks

 

I used

10 chaos space marines incl champion with powerfist

Mark of khorne

2 flamers

 

9 chaos space marines incl champion with powerfist

Mark of nurgle

 

5 terminators in reserve for deepstrike

 

Defiler with dccw instead of flamer

 

Chaos sorcerrer with mark of tzeentch (1 extra power)

Bolt of change

And the one where you can turn enemies in chaos spawn (name slips me)

Put him with nurgle troops

 

2 rhinos

 

 

Had first turn

 

Moved vehicles, popped smoke

End turn

 

One tank immobilised, one stunned

 

Second turn, failed to get deepsrike, disembarked with all troops.

Defiler got plasma'ed down in first turn, but the troops were out of the carrier

 

Khorne troops charged the plamsa wielders thx to a 6 on run and killed all and one dead for me

Nurgles got a a basalisc shot on them. One dead

 

IG turn. Thx to some good rolls on orders, the khorne boys got about 90 shots on them. 3 died

 

Third turn, termies got in with khorne boys.

Bolt of change destroyed tank

Khorne flamers killed half a squad

Termies bolters got one squad of the 3 order givers down to only the order giver

Nurgle did same with other squad

Khorne charged and destroyed other squad

 

IG turn. Khorne down, but was glad what they did and their icon for gztting termies in.

 

Then I really needed to go because of an other invite to something else

 

The iG player said that I probably would have won because my termies would have charged the main order giving guy and my nurgles could only be wounded on 6 because he didn't heave much heavy weapons with him. He had about 70 models on the table.

 

I learned the value of transport. A defiler isn't that great alone, maybe better to have 3 in more point battles

Sorcerers aren't that bad

Khorne guys really like blood

Nurgle is a good force to be the rear guys

 

Have to add that it was IG guy first time playing gunmen instead of mech and do think he was going easy on me because of my first battle epic loss

 

 

This will probably be bit noobish. I know. But thanks for the tips you can give me, and ofcourse that you want to give them

[caboosebe]

Oh oh, have to add that I won in painting job XD I got 3/4 painted and he only 1/10

I know it sounds childish but I was proud xD

[the jeske]

Khorne troops charged the plamsa wielders thx to a 6 on run and killed all and one dead for me

you cant charge after you run unless you have the fleet rule.

[caboosebe]

srry, wasn't a run, i ment difficult terrain

[caboosebe]

I'm still new to this so i'll propably say some wrong things at first even tho i mean something else :)

[David the Despoiler]

Your second list looks pretty solid. I'm liking your use of Chaos Marines over Cult Troops, however, in competitive play, everyone will insist that the Cult Troops equivalents are much better (ie Khorne Berzerkers over Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne and Plague Marines over Chaos Marines with the Mark of Nurgle). And remember, if your Defiler is getting plasma'd, at least your transports aren't.

[caboosebe]

Does a mark on an individual Character transfer to a group he joined?

[David the Despoiler]

Try to avoid double posting. No, the mark does not. That's one of the main reasons why Cult Troops are favored over normal troops. The icon is merely a formality, they can't lose their mark.

[Lord Kallozar]

Your second list looks pretty solid. I'm liking your use of Chaos Marines over Cult Troops

Im in agreement with David the Despoiler, its very refreshing to see icon marines rather than cult troops. I also run icon marines just to break away from the norm (plus i fits in more with my warbands fluff)!

 

Anyway, its good to see your games are starting to improve!

As your playing against a troop heavy Imperial Guard list then i would strongly recommend using a Daemon Prince upgraded with Mark of Nurgle and Nurgles Rot. He will destroy Guard squads with ease!!!

Also, you could try dropping the Nurgle icon on your CSM squad and replace it with another Khorne icon (or indeed just a squad of 8 Khorne Berzerkers). I say this because there is no point trying to have a straight fire fight against the Imperial Guard as you will will come out second best 9/10 times, so you may aswell hit hard and fast and smash the frail Guard troops in close combat (this is where the Khorne icon will be more effective than the Nurgle icon).

[caboosebe]

Thanks for the tips,David the Despoiler, Lord Kallozar and Warsmith Morenze, they will really help.

But what do you suggestion for a heavy mech list of IG? he is our most active player, so i'll probably be playing against him a lot to get to know the game better and trying to get better myself. This was his first time playing a heavy IG troop list, so i doubt he'll never be playing a mech list again.

 

Sorry to ask all those dumb questions :)

 

 

thanks

[the jeske]

But what do you suggestion for a heavy mech list of IG?

2DPS , whole army in rhinos , 2x2 oblits or 3x2 oblits if 1500 is played.

[caboosebe]

2DPS , whole army in rhinos , 2x2 oblits or 3x2 oblits if 1500 is played.

 

this is going to be the dumbest question on the board:

DPS ?

[Xeonic]

Daemon princes.

[Canadin]

One thing I would definetly recomend for your army is to replace your HQ slot with a daemon prince. Give it wings, and it will always be effective

 

Khorne:5 atacks, 6 on teh charge, and the cheapest (140)

Lash: Init 6, and troop control (155)

 

Sorcerer prince -- either nurgle or tzeentch, it will be the most expensive, but will be very difficult to kill by anything other than daemonhunter lords, or necrons spamming war scythes

 

Other than that, I would also replace the defiler with a predator or obliterators or a landraider or havoks -- AV 12/12/10 is not very much, and as your only big thing on the feild it , it will take all your enemies anti-tank fire. The other heavy slots will do its job just as well, or better, and be more survivable

 

other than that, I like your list. I also use a lot of marines in my armies over cult troops.

 

Edit-- I do not put my icons on my champions, I like to separate my special guns and stuff. It is especially useful when your sqaud is down to the last few guysand you get to allocate extra wounds onto models that are not your powerfist

[caboosebe]

Thanks for the great tips all. As i'm still new to this, it's still a bit hard to get a good vieuwpoint. But i will definitely try it out in upcoming battles.

I'll probably have new problems after that ;) I love the gaming, don't matter if i win or lose :lol: but i'm more the thinker :P like to make complex strategies xD or just try to make a fluff story around the battle and let my marines do accordingly :P

 

but again thx for the tips, really great that you want to help so much