Why the Hate?

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

I've been looking around on this forum and others about the Death Company with jump packs and the general concensus was to not use them. Why?.

 

I used a squad of 10 today with 1 PW, 2 Fists and 1 Hammer and they took out a squad of 22 gaunts, then proceded to kill 6 warriors with boneswords and their Prime but the squad was down to the guy with the hammer after the dust had settled and then he proceeded to help a stricken Libby dread with 8 + genestealers and their broodlord and he chased them off the table.

 

Now, Your thoughts?

[the sanguinor]

cost + rage i think is the general consensus

[Wicksy]

Pretty much what the sanguinor said. A clever enemy will kite them around the board slowly feeding them weak units while the heavy stuff ganks the rest of your army. However good deployment via deepestrike may circumvent this to some degree. However you face landing in that lovely closepack formation which begs to be pie plated. Now death company in a landraider are another story.....that unit will seriously mess up an opponent's army. You steam that tank into the heart of the enemy and let them charge....no amount of clever kiting will save him.

[the sanguinor]

even in a rhino they can cause havock whilst being protecred on the way....plus its a ton cheaper!

10 jumpacks is the same cost as a death company dread AND a powerfist for one of your guys.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

thats true but every time i use jumpies they almost always make their points back.

[Isryion]

thats true but every time i use jumpies they almost always make their points back.

 

Do people still play with victory points? ^_^

 

Seriously, though, I'd expect such a unit to kill a lot of things. I'd be happy if they "just" made their points back as an opponent, especially if I can keep them away from my scoring units. If you have that many of them because of their expense, you're also limiting your own number of scoring options in your own list and/or probably aren't taking another heavy hitting unit that you can actually control.

 

Tyranids are really an ideal type of an opponent for them, btw, their number isn't going to get thinned by shooting and there isn't a lot that is taking away your 3+/4+ in CC. I got them into CC against some Space Wolves and they did more damage than they took, but they were down to the point of ineffectiveness after a couple of power weapons in the unit. Also, the fact that I had them in a vehicle allowed them to get to a fight that was favorable. If they had had jump packs, I don't know they would have made it to that fight.

[Soups]

For me, it's a cost==benefit.

 

10 DC=150 points in JP

16 dc=240 points in JP

 

The first one is a whole unit, where a rhino is just as effective.

The second one is almost a LRC.

[Isryion]

One other point about numbers is that you can get a VV squad of 9 with a priest for cheaper. You do lose the WS 5, but it seems like a beneficial trade off for the rage if you are looking at jump packs.

 

Good, numbers, btw, Soup.

[SamaNagol]

Maybe running 5 with JP as a distraction. Thats it really.

[ServoBadger]

For the first few games I played with the new Codex, my Jump Pack DC led by Lemartes appeared to be unstoppable and lethal. Then my usual opponent got very good at feeding them empty Trukks and the occasional Deffkopta and generally keeping them away from the stuff they should be attacking.

 

However, if I take a DC Dreadnought as well, and start it off in a different place than the JP DC, leading both units around by the nose - and avoiding running into the Dread, say, when running away from the DC - is a lot more difficult.

[SamaNagol]

Yeh basically you need to use them to scare the enemy away from one flank and then send the rest of your units in up the middle and the other side. If you can fit in a 5 man unit with a Chaplain/Reclusiarch and also a DC Dread with Talons, you'll find your scoring troops will go pretty much ignored until the DC threat is taken care of.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

thats true but every time i use jumpies they almost always make their points back.

 

One day an Ordnance shell will splatter your unit with one shot and then you'll weep blood.

 

For me, it's a cost==benefit.

 

10 DC=150 points in JP

16 dc=240 points in JP

 

The first one is a whole unit, where a rhino is just as effective.

The second one is almost a LRC.

 

Exactly.

 

+++

 

T1 jump packs move 15.5" (jump+run)

T2 jump packs assault 18"

32.5"

 

T1 rhino moves 12"

T2 rhino moves 24"

T3 DC deploy 2.9 move 6" assault 6" = 14.9"

38.9"

 

So in chasing down, say, Tau or IG, the Rhino is a turn slower. But all of his lasguns/pulse rifles (which en masse will kill you) have been taken out of the game. So you have reduced incoming casualties.

 

Arriving a turn later, but with more men, against a shooting army is not terrible ~ you will still kill plenty of plebs :D

 

Against, say, Orks or Tyranids, who are coming at you, you'll be assaulting on T2 whether or not you have JP or Rhinos. Not spending all that money on JP means you can bring extra goodies for the squad, meaning you'll be killing even more.

 

In all sincerity, go Mech. It takes a bit of a brain reconfigure, but once you do, you'll be glad you've changed ;)

[Astorath the Grim]

Pretty much what the sanguinor said. A clever enemy will kite them around the board slowly feeding them weak units while the heavy stuff ganks the rest of your army. However good deployment via deepestrike may circumvent this to some degree. However you face landing in that lovely closepack formation which begs to be pie plated. Now death company in a landraider are another story.....that unit will seriously mess up an opponent's army. You steam that tank into the heart of the enemy and let them charge....no amount of clever kiting will save him.

 

It really doesn't matter how clever your enemy is, as long as your not brain dead DC will not get kited all around. Think, use them smartly and the kiting will not happen, its not that easy to kite DC around, read the sig.

 

As far as Vanguard vets go, I really think there are better things to take in the fast attack slot then these guys, especially cost wise...for $8 more you can get a baal pred that I personally think is much better then the vets.

 

I personally use an all jump pack army and though ordinance can be a pain, I still see no real reason to fear it so much that I want to drop the mobility for mech.

[Whitefireinferno]

Also there is nothing more Badass than a Matt black tank with red "x's" in the sea of Red then have them deploy from a Red one just as a distraction :D

[Anarchyman99]

It really doesn't matter how clever your enemy is, as long as your not brain dead DC will not get kited all around. Think, use them smartly and the kiting will not happen, its not that easy to kite DC around, read the sig.

 

As far as Vanguard vets go, I really think there are better things to take in the fast attack slot then these guys, especially cost wise...for $8 more you can get a baal pred that I personally think is much better then the vets.

 

I personally use an all jump pack army and though ordinance can be a pain, I still see no real reason to fear it so much that I want to drop the mobility for mech.

 

I'm 110% with you on this, you want to assault 90% of everything anyway...what about deepstriking them into a prime area (scattering only D6 with DOA)then the turn you can take full actions jump 12 out of cover and kick some asses.

[Astorath the Grim]

My only problem with DSing DC is that every part of the enemy army is probably going to shoot them to pieces. Most of my opponents since the 3rd ed dex, have had a total fear of DC and want them dead at all costs.

[Isryion]

As far as Vanguard vets go, I really think there are better things to take in the fast attack slot then these guys, especially cost wise...for $8 more you can get a baal pred that I personally think is much better then the vets.

 

I don't disagree on that point at all. I personally don't take them.

[SamaNagol]

The thing that holds Vanguard back is the fact you can buff up RAS to be almost equally as frightening and Honour Guard are actually vastly better.

[Soups]

Well, just a food for thought, if anyone reading this is still undecided on what to take DC in

 

Razorback: Cost 55 points. Seats 6. Mov 18" a turn. Get's into combat a turn after disembarking.

Rhino: Cost 50 points. Seats 10. Move 18" a turn. Get's into combat a turn after disembarking.

Land Raider: 240-250 points. Seats 12-16. Moves 12" a turn, can assault at any time.

Storm Raven: 200 points. Seats 12(jump packs count double). Move 24" a turn, can assault after a 0"-12" move.

 

5 DC and chaplain will have Jump packs = 85 points

9 DC and Chaplain will have jump packs = 145 points

11 DC and a chaplain will have jump packs = 175 points

15 DC and a chaplain will have jump packs = 235 points

[Isryion]

Razorback: Cost 55 points. Seats 6. Mov 18" a turn. Get's into combat a turn after disembarking.

Rhino: Cost 50 points. Seats 10. Move 18" a turn. Get's into combat a turn after disembarking.

 

You can actually keep them in the Razorback and then on your next turn disembark and assault. Essentially the same turn as described above, but saves one turn of rage but can save a turn of shooting at them. I may have just been lucky but this method has actually worked the best for me as I've found most people don't expect it or don't properly judge the 2 inch disembark, allowing essentially an 8" assault. I've also driven it right in the midst if a multiple targets, making it so there was no real way to get away. Usually this means sacrificing the vehicle, but it get my DC into combat untouched.

[shatter]

All those cheap transport options can have their mobility reduced by one lascannon shot from across the table for the rest of the game. This can mean it is in combat half as often and is exposed to fire and rage situations twice as much... arguably halving their value or worse without even considering the loss of the transport itself. This is why jump packs are so pricey on them.

 

One lascannon shot cannot shoot the jump packs off the unit for the rest of the game.

 

However, a whole bunch of fire of any type can totally remove a unit, jump pack or otherwise. Both of them are vulnerable to this, the transported versions are merely somewhat protected during the initial stages when, arguably, they're are not in range of much of it anyway.

 

In my opinion, while the price is high, it's somewhat fair.

[Midnightmare]

Also there is nothing more Badass than a Matt black tank with red "x's" in the sea of Red then have them deploy from a Red one just as a distraction :lol:

That is classical!

 

In all honesty I have ripped the jp's from my DC and was planning to magnatize but for how often I would use them its just not worth the effort lol (& I think I would be better using the magnets for the Rhino/Razorback)

[TrentL]

Having DC in a Rhino is all grand and all its cheaper sure, you can move them where you want sure... but once that Rhino is popped or immobilized, (Which can happen first turn) now you have ~10 guys on foot slogging around moving 6" maybe running but they don't have fleet. They are very easy to kite around with Vechiles at that point. At least with JP its much harder to kite units that move 12"

 

So neither method is at 100%, Rhino's are not always a very reliable method of transport and can be popped very easily, I understand what people are saying my personal preference if I could would be to have 14 + Lemartes + a Librarian in a Land Raider Crusader but sadly you can't take Lemartes Jump Pack off ... so I normally run 5 JP (1 Hammer 1 PW) + Lemartes and I them run behind my wall of AV 13/14 Vechiles so that I can move them as I choose blocking line of site.

[chaplain belisarius]

jump pack death company are FUN!:cuss

[Jaarl Stormfang]

I think the death company and storm ravens go together perfectly. Death company need a transport to get them into combat; jump packs are great but it means you're very easy targets for a baiting round the table with a speeder or whatever, and rhinos and razorbacks have the problem of having to wait around a turn before assaulting by which time you're target as fethed off and you're stuck raging around the board again. The only solution is to have them go into combat the turn they pop out so its storm raven or land raider.

 

For a storm raven there's no better payload. Just 155pts buys you 5 death company with a pair of power weapons and a fist. That's a very small price for such a lethal cargo. You don't want to be spending loads for an eggs in one basket syndrome. Also you're storm raven and cargo will often be out of range of your other forces due to the ravens speed so no priest bubble, but luckily death compnay come with FNP and FC automatically! The one crippling disadvantage is rage, which the storm raven all but eliminates by getting them stuck in immediately.