Why the Hate?

[Durkah]

thats true but every time i use jumpies they almost always make their points back.

 

One day an Ordnance shell will splatter your unit with one shot and then you'll weep blood.

 

For me, it's a cost==benefit.

 

10 DC=150 points in JP

16 dc=240 points in JP

 

The first one is a whole unit, where a rhino is just as effective.

The second one is almost a LRC.

 

Exactly.

 

+++

 

T1 jump packs move 15.5" (jump+run)

T2 jump packs assault 18"

32.5"

 

T1 rhino moves 12"

T2 rhino moves 24"

T3 DC deploy 2.9 move 6" assault 6" = 14.9"

38.9"

 

So in chasing down, say, Tau or IG, the Rhino is a turn slower. But all of his lasguns/pulse rifles (which en masse will kill you) have been taken out of the game. So you have reduced incoming casualties.

 

Arriving a turn later, but with more men, against a shooting army is not terrible ~ you will still kill plenty of plebs :)

 

Against, say, Orks or Tyranids, who are coming at you, you'll be assaulting on T2 whether or not you have JP or Rhinos. Not spending all that money on JP means you can bring extra goodies for the squad, meaning you'll be killing even more.

 

In all sincerity, go Mech. It takes a bit of a brain reconfigure, but once you do, you'll be glad you've changed :P

 

 

Actually... Rhino moves 18" (fast vehicle) Turn one. Pop smoke. Turn two get out and assault.

 

That's how I do it. Next turn if its not killed. You move them out 2" move 6" which is pretty much a 9" move from the access points. I turn my rhino side on when doing this. And you do the 2" to the back of the base for getting out.

 

Then you can assault 6". Giving you. 18 + 8 + 6 = 32 inches in 2 turns. Almost 33 Inches. Compared to jump packs which get you 32.5 as you said. So its the same distance. But a lot more survivable with your DC.

 

At least, that's what I think.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Only thing is, with an 18" move turn 1, you're at least 6 inches away from an enemy, probably more. Next turn your charge range is just 14", do you really expect your opponent not to move away? I know I would vs death company. Or move behind terrain or a vehicle, or move a transport/speeder close so they have to rage towards it once they get out, or any number of ways to get away from a horrible close combat unit in a whole turn.

 

I think you have to force death company on your enemy, rather than hope they'll stick around to take a charge.

[SamaNagol]

All of those things are easier to do to a Jump Pack unit though.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Correct, except the rage bait problem. Stormraven or Land Raider, while an expensive option, eliminates it.

[SamaNagol]

.....that's running them in a Transport then isn't it?

[Jaarl Stormfang]

That's right, I was arguing specifically against rhinos and razorbacks, not all transports in general. Sorry if we misunderstood eachother!

[Isryion]

Only thing is, with an 18" move turn 1, you're at least 6 inches away from an enemy, probably more. Next turn your charge range is just 14", do you really expect your opponent not to move away? I know I would vs death company. Or move behind terrain or a vehicle, or move a transport/speeder close so they have to rage towards it once they get out, or any number of ways to get away from a horrible close combat unit in a whole turn.

 

I think you have to force death company on your enemy, rather than hope they'll stick around to take a charge.

 

18"+14"= 32" a lot of board that is being covered;)

 

Obviously there are ways to do this, and it's not as if the DC are the only thing on the board, something that people who discuss the pros and cons of various strategies often have a tough time explaining because it often applies to our particular army build. For example, I keep my DC cheap, so I will never go with jump packs and go with a cheap transport option. My DC are helping to herd or pin my opponent while other things move in, or assault an objective on their own to tie up and contest a location while the rest of my attack concentrates elsewhere. They never are really key to my plan and act as more of a distraction while the rest of the scoring troops take objectives and destroy key targets.

 

This discussion does illustrate one of the great things about our codex. There are so many ways to build and use units (without them being over the top) that discussions like this happen all the time.

[SamaNagol]

The good thing about putting them in a Razorback is the fact that mentally that 5 man unit is as threatening as a full 10 man unit for half the price.

 

I do quite like the 5 men with Fist, PWeapon and Reclusiarch in the Heavy Flamer Razorback.

[Durkah]

Only thing is, with an 18" move turn 1, you're at least 6 inches away from an enemy, probably more. Next turn your charge range is just 14", do you really expect your opponent not to move away? I know I would vs death company. Or move behind terrain or a vehicle, or move a transport/speeder close so they have to rage towards it once they get out, or any number of ways to get away from a horrible close combat unit in a whole turn.

 

I think you have to force death company on your enemy, rather than hope they'll stick around to take a charge.

 

 

Which is why at the end of the 18" move you pop smoke. 4+ cover save. They need 6's to hit you in combat. When / if the rhino goes... you just simply place the DC in the best place you can. You obviously don't run them towards there dreadnoughts... But simply place the DC behind the rhino if its a wreck. If its side on like I do it, it blocks LOS to the enemy in most cases which means next turn... you can move wherever you want. :D

 

If you have other rhino's moving up which is what I also do, they really need to pop them all... otherwise, there kinda getting rushed straight after.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Actually... Rhino moves 18" (fast vehicle) Turn one. Pop smoke. Turn two get out and assault.

That's how I do it. Next turn if its not killed. You move them out 2" move 6" which is pretty much a 9" move from the access points. I turn my rhino side on when doing this. And you do the 2" to the back of the base for getting out.

Then you can assault 6". Giving you. 18 + 8 + 6 = 32 inches in 2 turns. Almost 33 Inches. Compared to jump packs which get you 32.5 as you said. So its the same distance. But a lot more survivable with your DC.

At least, that's what I think.

 

:lol: I had my B&W tinted lenses on :lol: Yes BA do it even better with fast vehicles! That means the Rhino DC hit on T2 just like the JP DC.... :)

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Only thing is, with an 18" move turn 1, you're at least 6 inches away from an enemy, probably more. Next turn your charge range is just 14", do you really expect your opponent not to move away? I know I would vs death company. Or move behind terrain or a vehicle, or move a transport/speeder close so they have to rage towards it once they get out, or any number of ways to get away from a horrible close combat unit in a whole turn.

 

I think you have to force death company on your enemy, rather than hope they'll stick around to take a charge.

 

 

Which is why at the end of the 18" move you pop smoke. 4+ cover save. They need 6's to hit you in combat. When / if the rhino goes... you just simply place the DC in the best place you can. You obviously don't run them towards there dreadnoughts... But simply place the DC behind the rhino if its a wreck. If its side on like I do it, it blocks LOS to the enemy in most cases which means next turn... you can move wherever you want. :lol:

 

If you have other rhino's moving up which is what I also do, they really need to pop them all... otherwise, there kinda getting rushed straight after.

 

I wasn't talking about a rhino's survivability. I was talking about the fact that if you wait aroud in your transport for a turn your opponent has an entire turn to move away, set up counter charges, get terrain in the way, or even just set up a unit to bait the death company's rage once they do get out next turn. Death company suffer from this worse than regular units, as they can be raged away. If they're disembarking from a land raider/storm raven that's moved 12" they don't get a move, just an 8" assault, so the rage disadvantage is completely negated.

 

If you're going to take squads in razorbacks/rhinos, take assault marines. Slightly cheaper, almost as powerful near a priest, can blast away with meltaguns, don't get raged away and plus they score.

[Whitefireinferno]

I wasn't talking about a rhino's survivability. I was talking about the fact that if you wait aroud in your transport for a turn your opponent has an entire turn to move away, set up counter charges, get terrain in the way, or even just set up a unit to bait the death company's rage once they do get out next turn. Death company suffer from this worse than regular units, as they can be raged away. If they're disembarking from a land raider/storm raven that's moved 12" they don't get a move, just an 8" assault, so the rage disadvantage is completely negated.

 

If you're going to take squads in razorbacks/rhinos, take assault marines. Slightly cheaper, almost as powerful near a priest, can blast away with meltaguns, don't get raged away and plus they score.

 

But in saying this why take Death Company with JPs when Ras and Vas do the same without rage?

 

But yeah IMO DC need to be in a ride to be useful.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Well exactly, that's why I advocate a storm raven (or less so, a LR). In a storm raven, death company do what no other unit can do. Be a very cheap, very powerful, independant hammer. They hit like a ton of bricks, don't need a priest, and only cost as much as assault squads. Perfect if they don't rage, and ravens are the way to prevent rage.

[Astorath the Grim]

I wasn't talking about a rhino's survivability. I was talking about the fact that if you wait aroud in your transport for a turn your opponent has an entire turn to move away, set up counter charges, get terrain in the way, or even just set up a unit to bait the death company's rage once they do get out next turn. Death company suffer from this worse than regular units, as they can be raged away. If they're disembarking from a land raider/storm raven that's moved 12" they don't get a move, just an 8" assault, so the rage disadvantage is completely negated.

 

If you're going to take squads in razorbacks/rhinos, take assault marines. Slightly cheaper, almost as powerful near a priest, can blast away with meltaguns, don't get raged away and plus they score.

 

But in saying this why take Death Company with JPs when Ras and Vas do the same without rage?

 

But yeah IMO DC need to be in a ride to be useful.

 

I disagree here, Ras and most deffinately Vas do not do the same as DC....they don't hit as hard unless you've got a sang priest with them. The can't have as many power weapons, and they do not instill the same apprehension and fear that DC will...and Vas are, imho not worth the fast slot.

 

And by saying that DC need a ride to be useful then Ras and Vas would need a ride to be useful as well, there really is not much of a difference between the way DC runs and the way Ras run, you just have to pay more attention to whats going on around them.

[Isryion]

I wasn't talking about a rhino's survivability. I was talking about the fact that if you wait aroud in your transport for a turn your opponent has an entire turn to move away, set up counter charges, get terrain in the way, or even just set up a unit to bait the death company's rage once they do get out next turn. Death company suffer from this worse than regular units, as they can be raged away. If they're disembarking from a land raider/storm raven that's moved 12" they don't get a move, just an 8" assault, so the rage disadvantage is completely negated.

 

If you're going to take squads in razorbacks/rhinos, take assault marines. Slightly cheaper, almost as powerful near a priest, can blast away with meltaguns, don't get raged away and plus they score.

 

 

While we could pretend to debate the killing power between a 5 man assault squad with a priest and a 6 man DC (assuming one PW one PF in each if you give the SP a PW) they're really not even close. The DC unit wins every time. A 6 man DC with PF+PW in a razor is 215. A 5 man assault squad w/PF and priest in a razorback is 210. Darn close but the RAS is a lot less killy (fewer power weapon attacks and fewer attacks overall, and the lower WS means fewer hits) being traded off for rage and scoring. Of slight note is the RAS are 3 victory points and easier to kill (lower weapon skill means more hits on them and the priest is the only thing giving them FNP -- he goes, they go). IMO they're both good units but they really are going to be used in different roles.

 

I understand your point, but again, I think it depends on the army and build. If you are going with a large number of DC and expect it to be your main killing unit, I'd agree that investing in a LR or Stormraven would be ideal. But, for those of us that go with the smaller unit seem to have no problem making the razorback/rhino work.

[Astorath the Grim]

I can see using a LR for DC, though I'm not real fond of DC being without their packs, the storm raven I'm not too keen on as it can only hold 6 DC with packs, or 12 without...if your going without packs ya might as well take the LR and not take up a FOC slot

[SamaNagol]

FOC slots are not really an issue when it comes to Heavy, unless you want to be running 3 Vindicators or 3 Predators, which is unlikely.

 

The other benefit with the Storm Raven is you can strap a DC Dreadnought to the bottom of it as well, for super fun times.

[Astorath the Grim]

FOC slots are not really an issue when it comes to Heavy, unless you want to be running 3 Vindicators or 3 Predators, which is unlikely.

 

The other benefit with the Storm Raven is you can strap a DC Dreadnought to the bottom of it as well, for super fun times.

 

 

Why is this unlikely? I see no reason to not run 3 Vindi, or preds or even dreads...and the DC dreads can just as easily drop pod in. If the Storm Raven actually had a model I might, and I do stress might consider giving it a shot

[Isryion]

Why is this unlikely? I see no reason to not run 3 Vindi, or preds or even dreads...and the DC dreads can just as easily drop pod in. If the Storm Raven actually had a model I might, and I do stress might consider giving it a shot

 

It sounds as if you'll have that decision to make in September, and I'll have to make it as well.

 

I think the reason the Storm Raven is going to be a good choice is due to cost effectiveness, especially if you are already taking a dread and anything else you need to transport. First, it's pretty solid in it's own right, with the missiles, assault cannons (or other weapon of your choice), and machine spirit. So, it's not too much of a step down from the vindicator in terms of power. Then, if you are already taking a drop pod and another transport like a rhino, you're already at 85 points. If you go with the storm raven, it ends up seeming like a bargain -- you're basically paying 115 points since you would have spent the points on transports anyway.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

And 115pts is a baal with an assault cannon. So you lose 1 front armour value, gain armour elsewhere, lose scout, gain 4 missiles, assault vehicle, twinlinked multimelta and skimmer (plus a perfect death company vehicle)

 

Of course, it's all in one vehicle, which is good for kill points, but bad for survivability. All told I'd say it's not better than any other choice in the codex but certainly on par with.

[Astorath the Grim]

If I were running tac squads, or assault squads without jump packs then I'd find the storm raven golden. But I run an all jump pack army so its less useful to me and running DC in only 5 man squads in my opinion is only useful with low points games, at 1500 or higher I'd never take less then 10 dc. Which makes the storm raven less then useful as a transport option.

 

However it is a skimmer, and does have an impressive weapons load out...however since my converting skills are sub par, until they get a model out for it, its not a concern.