'Ard Boyz Sportsamnship

[LoneSniperSG]

After that game, I needed a couple cigarettes to mellow out.

 

They'll kill you, y'know.. Though not as fast as three Land Raiders, Khârn and Abaddon. :(

 

And after hearing my uncle remind me of that over and over yesterday, I don't need to hear it again. :/

[Captain Juan Juarez]

After that game, I needed a couple cigarettes to mellow out.

 

They'll kill you, y'know.. Though not as fast as three Land Raiders, Khârn and Abaddon. :cuss

 

And after hearing my uncle remind me of that over and over yesterday, I don't need to hear it again. :/

 

I apologise, Sir, I was trying to inject some levity into the doom and gloom :(

[SamaNagol]

Didn't you take meltaguns? 20 points worth of Assault Weapon to slag 260pts of tank isn't a bad trade off.

[Ramora]

3 raiders and Abby and Khârn in one of them doesn't sound that bad to me. Thats about 2/5th of his army and about 1/3rd all wrapped up nicely in a landraider shaped box. Pop that raider and enjoy gunning him down as he tries to walk to your lines. Unless there was something super impressive in the other two raiders you could probably ignore them. standing still and taking two TLLC shots a turn they are gunna be hard pressed to make their points back, unless you are mech or termie heavy.

 

'Ard Boyz is a tourney made specifically for power gaming(this doesn't include cheating or rules bending). That being said I would refer anyone would is beign an :) to the rules of 'Ard Boyz

 

‘Ard Boyz tournaments are all about commanding

large armies and doing your best to blast your

opponent to bits. At its heart though, the ‘Ard Boyz is

about having fun. So don’t be a git! In other words do

your best to win, but win nicely.

Anyone not adhering to these principles may be asked

to leave the tournament.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

‘Ard Boyz tournaments are all about commanding

large armies and doing your best to blast your

opponent to bits. At its heart though, the ‘Ard Boyz is

about having fun. So don’t be a git! In other words do

your best to win, but win nicely.

Anyone not adhering to these principles may be asked

to leave the tournament.

 

Trouble is with that, "git-ness" is often subjective unless taken to extremes.

[Polonius]

Ard boys is unique among tournaments, not in that it doesn't have sportsmanship, but in that it's run nationwide, in nearly every store, on the same day. What's more, there is a huge incentive to do well (going to the second round) beyond what's normally at stake in a small local tournament. Combine these two facts in the wrong store, and what you get is pretty nasty. A lot of stores like to treat their regulars better, and so favor them. Others are simply apathetic judges. Others outright houserule stuff to the advantage of locals.

 

I've played probably a tournament a month for over six years, and I'll be honest I've never had more than a handful of abusive or cheating opponents. Admittedly I'm not the sort of guy too many people feel like bullying, and there was a time in a Tournament of Champions final where I discovered my opponent was 200+ points over the limit, but in in my experience in the Midwest is that tournament players are if anything more scrupulous and more polite.

 

If somebody is cheating, or being abusive, or stalling, tell the judge or TO. If they do nothing, then you may need to accept the fact that the house is crooked, and you either game somewhere else or deal with it.

[Stormbrow II]

@Ramora: Is there a like button here because you're talking a lot of sense in that post.

 

My question is, how do you deal with someone bending the rules? I mean come on, mashing two squads together to get a cover save for both? What do you do to beat that? You can't call a judge, because the units are all within 2-inch squad coherency..so he's within the rules.

You bring Flame weapons and piss yourself laughing when you burn a gigantic hole in his units. You can make things easier by Tank Shocking and lining them up first.

 

I can't understand the near-hysterics when it comes to Ard Boys and having 'beardy' builds or players that are trying to win. It's a tournament :cuss. Competition is inherent.

 

What isn't acceptable is cheating or bullying though - you call a judge on that very quickly. Assuming that the judge isn't playing in the tournament. Against you. :)

 

Don't bother with Sports scores either:

Trouble is with that, "git-ness" is often subjective unless taken to extremes.

Yup.

[LoneSniperSG]

After that game, I needed a couple cigarettes to mellow out.

 

They'll kill you, y'know.. Though not as fast as three Land Raiders, Khârn and Abaddon. :P

 

And after hearing my uncle remind me of that over and over yesterday, I don't need to hear it again. :/

 

I apologise, Sir, I was trying to inject some levity into the doom and gloom ;)

 

Neh. No harm done. B) Playing Mario Kart with my little brother shattered the doom and gloom crap yesterday.

 

3 raiders and Abby and Khârn in one of them doesn't sound that bad to me. Thats about 2/5th of his army and about 1/3rd all wrapped up nicely in a landraider shaped box. Pop that raider and enjoy gunning him down as he tries to walk to your lines. Unless there was something super impressive in the other two raiders you could probably ignore them. standing still and taking two TLLC shots a turn they are gunna be hard pressed to make their points back, unless you are mech or termie heavy.

 

Mech-heavy. I had a single pair of lascannon sponsons, because I was anticipating more horde armies showing up. (Nids, Orks, Guard, only Nids). Meltaguns all over the place, yes, but the bikes and speeders were intercepted, and the squads were busy camping objectives.

[Lumdin]

Talking about broken lists. I saw a guy playing blood angels.

He had 5 Land raiders with 5 assault squads, no jump packs

2 predators

Mephiston

Not sure if he had a vindicator also.

 

I don't fault the guy, he used the rules that are available in the blood angels codex. I am just glad i didn't have to face him because I doubt i would have done that well against him. But sometimes he use every advantge they can in their codex.

 

 

But what really irks me is when people play loose and free with rules and measurements.

 

Unfortunately I think I come across as a Donkey's butt. But I get tired of things I see happen. -

 

1) When deploying troops and combining their move at same time, measure 8 inches from a hatch instead of deploying all troops 2 inches then moving 6 inches. It sometimes means especially when charging through terrain that they may not get 2 or 3 models into combat

 

2) when people move units and do rough estimates when measuring (the unit starts out 2 inches away from each other, all move full 6 inches but end up in base contact)or when the roll scatter for teleportation and it does not seem to scatter the full distance.

 

3) or when they do a pile in and avoid making base contact with my wolf lord and even though they have plenty of movement to do it and try to move models behind models already in base contact with my unit

 

4) When rolling scatter dice, I have never seen people agree on the direction. Kinda drives me insane. arrow points sw on the board but they want to say it is west.

 

5) when a vehicle blows up and all of sudden the unit inside gains 2 inches closer to my unit than the outline of the vehicle.

 

 

Sometimes it feels when I lose and it is usually by very close games because I don't want to be that guy that is rules lawyer. But then when i point out these items i then feel like the guy that is way too competitive. Still trying to find my balance between enjoying the game and being competitive.

 

My 2 cents

[TiguriusX]

Regarding hiding 1 unit within another....I just went over the rules so lets discuss how to defend it next time

 

Movement rules on p.11

Models may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (this leaves at most a 2" gap to maneuver using a 40mm or 1.57" base...very tight)

 

If he has his units like this (checkerboard):

 

Row 1 X--Y--X--Y

Row 2 Y--X--Y--X

Row 3 X--Y--X--Y

 

He has to move diagonally because he can't move through the other models. If he wants to maintain formation and try to move forward make him measure painstakingly and go around each model. He can burn his allotted game time moving his stupid units or leave them where they are

 

 

If he has his units like this (column):

 

Row 1 X--Y--X--Y

Row 2 X--Y--X--Y

Row 3 X--Y--X--Y

 

He can basically only move forward

 

 

Here comes the fun part

 

If he has shooting units he is sacrificing shooting attacks

 

Model must have LOS p.16

 

If his unit is in checkboard formation he can only fire the front rows

If his unit is in column formation he can only fire DIRECTLY ahead because the sides are blocked off by another unit

 

 

If he manages to get his units firing by claiming some limited LOS use the intervening models rule against him. Your unit now has a 4+ cover save

[IamCaboose]

I gotta agree with your very last sentence tigurius. If he's getting a cover save because you're shooting through his unit then that means you would also get cover saves because he is doing the exact same thing. As for the movement rules, I wouldn't be a stickler about that part unless the guy was being a tool.

[Ramora]

Mech-heavy. I had a single pair of lascannon sponsons, because I was anticipating more horde armies showing up. (Nids, Orks, Guard, only Nids). Meltaguns all over the place, yes, but the bikes and speeders were intercepted, and the squads were busy camping objectives.

 

Anticipating makes an 'ant' out of 'ici' and 'pating'. I always play with an all comers list. For one you don't really know what you're gunna fight until you are assigned tables, even with the local meta gam. For two if you think you're gunna make it to the second round you're gunna need an all comers list and might as well get the practice in. But thats just my 2 cents.

 

One the subject of cheating you really gotta not be afraid to call some one out. You don't have call some one a cheater just point out what they are doing and tell them that is agaisnt the rules.

[Stormbrow II]

Anticipating makes an 'ant' out of 'ici' and 'pating'. I always play with an all comers list. For one you don't really know what you're gunna fight until you are assigned tables, even with the local meta gam. For two if you think you're gunna make it to the second round you're gunna need an all comers list and might as well get the practice in. But thats just my 2 cents.

 

One the subject of cheating you really gotta not be afraid to call some one out. You don't have call some one a cheater just point out what they are doing and tell them that is agaisnt the rules.

Ramora - you're oozing sense from every pore.

[Brother Caleb]

Anticipating makes an 'ant' out of 'ici' and 'pating'. I always play with an all comers list. For one you don't really know what you're gunna fight until you are assigned tables, even with the local meta gam. For two if you think you're gunna make it to the second round you're gunna need an all comers list and might as well get the practice in. But thats just my 2 cents.

 

One the subject of cheating you really gotta not be afraid to call some one out. You don't have call some one a cheater just point out what they are doing and tell them that is agaisnt the rules.

Ramora - you're oozing sense from every pore.

Effective metaphor. Clean up, isle 17.

 

I'm a big fan of all comers lists. They keep you fluid and sharp.

[Niiai]

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I saw that same crap. A Tyranids player was exploiting the cover save by mashing his squads together.

 

For example, he would stretch out one squad of gaunts to the max of two inches apart, and fill in the space with another squad, granting both a cover save for the enemy having to shoot through another squad to get them.

 

Talk about freaking lame. What perturbed me the most was that the 'Nids player bending the rules was the father of the powergamer who floored me first.

 

I feel worse for the Space Wolves player dealing with that cheap Nids player. If he had enough time, he could have made a wall of his Rhinos to stop the stupidity, but the 'Nids were all over him by turn two.

 

 

Is that legal?

 

I thought a squad could not go through another squad.

[Wildfire]

To those who are complaining about "broken" or "hard" lists: I would suggest you not play in 'Ard Boyz. That's what it's all about, bringing the most devastating list you can and beating your opponent to pulp without mercy. If you like playing with friendly or less competative lists, 'Ard Boyz is not for you. That's the facts. If you throw even a silent tantrum, I have no sympathy for you. Not trying to be offensive here, but people that don't like the toughest competition out there are not the target audience.

 

However, cheating should be dealt with (politely, of course). It's not lawyering to insist on playing by the letter of the rules. Don't feel bad calling out someone who is doing something wrong. One should give them the benifit of the doubt, though, and consider that they might simply have been playing the wrong way for as long as they've been playing. Often people will simply be misinformed, especially if they play with a small group where there are no outsiders to point out rule errors. When I got back into 40k, I played with a small group initially. I had several significant misconceptions about certain rules that had to be corrected.

 

Poor attitude is not something that can realistically be fixed. That's something that simply has to be dealt with. No system I've ever seen comes close to correcting it in any manner I could consider fair and unbiased.

[Stormbrow II]

To those who are complaining about "broken" or "hard" lists: I would suggest you not play in 'Ard Boyz. That's what it's all about, bringing the most devastating list you can and beating your opponent to pulp without mercy. If you like playing with friendly or less competative lists, 'Ard Boyz is not for you. That's the facts. If you throw even a silent tantrum, I have no sympathy for you. Not trying to be offensive here, but people that don't like the toughest competition out there are not the target audience.

I saw this and had to link to a brilliant post on a blog over here.

 

It's a great read about people's expectations for both the casual and competitive gamer.

[krewl]

Three Land Raiders, Khârn and Abaddon. That's all I can say.

 

I did try to keep my composure, although I was nearly screaming at the top of my lungs that my most expensive unit (Land Raider) was not destroyed. I didn't want to be "that guy" raging on about how lame it was to even bother trying to take that on.

 

After that game, I needed a couple cigarettes to mellow out.

 

I think I'm staying out of all Ard Boyz, atleast until I get or know something sneaky or horribly destructive.

 

 

My question is, how do you deal with someone bending the rules? I mean come on, mashing two squads together to get a cover save for both? What do you do to beat that? You can't call a judge, because the units are all within 2-inch squad coherency..so he's within the rules.

LoneSniperSG, I would like to add some comments.

 

I feel you're dissapointed by the list you had against you. 3 LR's Abbadon and Khârn in one list made you feel irritated and annoyed, but that is what Hard Boys is for ('Ard Boys actually).People bringing their hardest list to the game @ 2500 points to try and table others (or win hard at least). If you feel that you have unfluffy opponents you might have gone to the wrong tournament here.

 

Besides, that list is just a typical kind of list that is either very easy for you to kill or very hard, depending on your own list.

For example, sevral types of lists have planty of meltaguns, especially at the 2500 points level. That kills 750 points real fast, and abbadon then wil not get the charge as easy on something worth his point, thereby waisting another 250 points ish (He's about as expensive as a landraider I believe) even better id he has a retinue that does not get somewhere. So that list is just hard an deadly if you do not pack enough melta, if you do you have a huge advatage in your army against that list.

 

2nd is that mixing 2 squads for both having a coversave.

Yes that does feel cheaty, but it is in fact just perfectly within the rules. It is just like the 4th edition combat rules where people could remove casualties in a smart way and prevent some guy (Like a fist or character) from hitting in a round, even though he's standing there next to the combat... It seems very unreal and cheating like for us because we think of the rules as representing reality, but it's not. It's a system of rules and suchs a system will always have issues where the rules feel unrealistic Sad but true.

 

Now how to treat the weak spot on this cover for all setup;

1: natural vulnerabilities

1. Templates, flamers and all other things like that eat many many wounds because your enemy is bunched up.

Depends on your list if you will be able to exploit that, you'll need the range or speed to get there to expoloit it.

2. Getting stuff in CC with that enables you to multicharge with great ease. Charge one and the other, kill the weakest one and have the other one die on outnumbering wounds.

 

Drawbacks

1. He must deploy like that, else it is very much possible to take 2 turns of movement (Or a run move, so no shooting) to set up like that.

2. These units will hinder each other in movement, make him move one first, then the other. You'll see they'll be lucky if they get 3"far a turn.

 

I feel that if a player is going to exploit that type setup, you are well within your rights to ask that he moves by the rules, one at a time, no moving one unit half then another then the other half of the first. No moving a unit over a model in another unit, things like that. He want model A to move somewhere, then model A's base should fit the entire route from start to finishing position. Also you should measuer the route it takes, not the point to point distance.

That might feel strickt, but it is just the way the rules are, and if you complicate your moves for your benefit with that deploment for your 12 units, you should also have the downsides.

 

Now GO FORT, and park a wolf lord on a thunderwolf mount in there with Frost axe, belt of russ, runic armour and Saga of the warrior, enjoy the bits flying around while the lord get's 13 attacks a tuirn from all the carnage. :D

[Wildfire]

Wow, nice find Stormbrow. That's an excellent read.

[Stormbrow II]

Indeed it is - that's why I dragged it over here. I think it lays things out fairly without simply pointing the finger at one side or the other.

[NealSmith]

That was good. I think that's why our FLGS has 2-3 different "groups" going on all at the same time. Some people swap between then from time-to-time, etc. Last time our group met, some of the other guys were looking and chatting and I heard more than one of them say, jokingly: "I could never play with these guys. They paint their figures!" or "See! This is what it could look like." ^_^ Made me feel good actually. LOL

[commander alexander]

That was good. I think that's why our FLGS has 2-3 different "groups" going on all at the same time. Some people swap between then from time-to-time, etc. Last time our group met, some of the other guys were looking and chatting and I heard more than one of them say, jokingly: "I could never play with these guys. They paint their figures!" or "See! This is what it could look like." :) Made me feel good actually. LOL

 

Now I have heard of not playing unpainted armies, but not playing an army because its painted, that just confuses me :) .

 

 

 

Anyways, the reason I started this thread, is because of the appalling sportsmanship I observed at 'Ard Boyz. I can do nothing but disagree with those of you who are saying have no expectations. This is a game, a hobby, meant to be enjoyable for everyone, and people seem to forget that at these larger tournaments. I think there should most definitely be sportsmanship scores in 'Ard Boyz, and I'm not talking about major points, but actually tie-breakers. If this tournament is looking for those "elite players", in my opinion, an elite player should not only be a good ( or lucky) commander of their army, but a good sportsman. And if it included sportsmanship scores, it would at least get people to act nice.

[Grimtooth]

That was good. I think that's why our FLGS has 2-3 different "groups" going on all at the same time. Some people swap between then from time-to-time, etc. Last time our group met, some of the other guys were looking and chatting and I heard more than one of them say, jokingly: "I could never play with these guys. They paint their figures!" or "See! This is what it could look like." ;) Made me feel good actually. LOL

 

Now I have heard of not playing unpainted armies, but not playing an army because its painted, that just confuses me :) .

 

 

 

Anyways, the reason I started this thread, is because of the appalling sportsmanship I observed at 'Ard Boyz. I can do nothing but disagree with those of you who are saying have no expectations. This is a game, a hobby, meant to be enjoyable for everyone, and people seem to forget that at these larger tournaments. I think there should most definitely be sportsmanship scores in 'Ard Boyz, and I'm not talking about major points, but actually tie-breakers. If this tournament is looking for those "elite players", in my opinion, an elite player should not only be a good ( or lucky) commander of their army, but a good sportsman. And if it included sportsmanship scores, it would at least get people to act nice.

 

I am not so sure about actual sportsmanship scores, but there should be a zero tolerance by the TO for unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

My first two games were completely awesome against some funny and fun opponents which I enjoyed despite a minor loss and a major loss.. I could not beat my last opponent fast enough it was so horrible and had their been a zero tolerance policy, the TO would have easily warned the guy or DQ him just because of his outloud whining and dice throwing.

[Ramora]

I read that wall of text and basically what I got out of it was it's my fault if I don't have fun in a game against some one who is a D bag. I cannot agree with that. In your place of residence or some other private space feel free to be yourself if you are a giant :cuss. Out in the real world with people who have different values and morals it is generally a good idea to err on the side of caution and have a certain amount of civility in your demeanor. Now if it is the regulars and the store owner who are jerks then maybe don't play there. In my experience you are generally shunned if you are a jerk and more then likey you will be on some back table playing with all your jerk friends. That is if you are lucky enough to get a table. In a tournament setting yes you will run in to people you don't like/get along with but even then most people can keep themselves composed enough to get through the game. I think this articleencourages us to take a back seat to this and not speak out against such attitudes. If you come to a tourney you shouldn't be a jerk. You are in a public venue and if you go around harrassing poeple in the general public evenually you are gunna get yourself into trouble either with the law or some one whose toes you shouldn't have stepped on. Not to mention the fact that at most tournies people have paid to play and they didn't pay good money to have to deal with your :cuss ty attitude. I don't think jerks should get a free pass to be jerks just cause thats the way they are. Yes you are gunna meet them in life and unfortunately you will probably have to play a few of them in 40k but just because some one gets their rocks off by being a jerk doesn't mean us nice guys can't have an equal amount of fun :cuss ing to our friends about how we had to roll a giant, stinky douchey guy in a crappy game.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

No... What is says is that if there are signs that your opponent may be a "douche" yet you still consent to play him/her, then it is your fault.

 

It is you fault if you don't have fun, simply because why would you put yourself in situations where such would be the case?