'Ard Boyz Sportsamnship

[Stormbrow II]

If from the very beginning,my opponent has been a cool guy,we have a good back and forth comraderie,Then without a doubt I am gonna commiserate over his misfortunes and laugh at my own,and ensure that no matter who wins,we both have a good time and end the game with a handshake and a wish of luck in future games.

That's what sportsmanship should be about.

 

I think its all to do with the mindset of the individual no matter what you are doing

 

do you want to be fair and honest or do you want to win at all cost

If someone is expecting his opponents to have 'fluffy' armies at a tournament with no restrictions then he shouldn't be allowed to punish those that doesn't conform to his belief.

 

I have to ask why being fair and honest and winning at all cost are seen as mutually exclusive in so many people's eyes?

[Simo429]

I have to ask why being fair and honest and winning at all cost are seen as mutually exclusive in so many people's eyes?

because one precludes the other

 

if you are going to win at all costs that means you dont care about being fair and honest its all about the win

[Stormbrow II]

being fair and honest its all about the win

So they'll always cheat? If not, could you explain your definition of being fair and honest?

 

I've played in plenty of tournaments where both my opponents and myself wanted to win but it (thankfully) never came down to cheating to make or break the game.

[elrik bloodmoon]

first and last time i was in one the guy blaintenly cheated and nothing was done about it ! kinda ruined it for me so never again.

[Stormbrow II]

first and last time i was in one the guy blaintenly cheated and nothing was done about it ! kinda ruined it for me so never again.

It happens, and as nothing was done I'll assume you walked. Only way to deal with that crap.

 

The only thing I have to say is you've only played in one tourney so you can't tar them all with one brush. I'm assuming that not everyone else was complaining about cheating at the event unless they played the same fella right?

[Decoy]

Agreed, Bloodmoon. I've met some decent tourney players, but in conversations after the tourney, they were simply "in it just to play." Conversely, the real asses, the ones who insist that my squad is half a millimeter out of assault range, or that my plasma cannon's shot isn't touching the base of a model (as they eye it from across the board), or that they really, truly DO have an inch from all my models as they deep-strike into the middle of a formation of 40 wolf guard with about three inches between them... Yeah. Those guys were "In it to win it."

 

Tourneyfolk who are in it to win at all costs seem, in my eyes, to look down on those of us who just go to play and have fun, because evidently, we're not taking the tournament, the game, the hobby, or themselves seriously. They take it as a personal affront, and for some reason, seem to think that they're better than the rest of us, just because they can win tournaments.

[the jeske]

. They take it as a personal affront, and for some reason, seem to think that they're better than the rest of us, just because they can win tournaments.

well ... tournaments are there to check who is the better gamer . not who has a bigger game group and can score higher off game points.

as the affront goes. imagine you play any other game . you pay for entry , your there to play the game and try to win and your opponent isnt even trying . that kind of a does suck .

[Decoy]

That's actually one of the more effective things one can do, Jeske. There was one guy at a local tournie who was a Grade A ass, both in and outside the game, and outside the tourney. I was watching his first game after tabling my own opponent, and he was being a certifiable jerk to this kid who was obviously new. (Turned out to be his first tournament.) The kid ended up getting tabled by the Ass, and the Ass then proceeded to mock the kid. The kid quit the tourney before the next pairings.

 

Go figure, second game, I got paired with the Ass. I waited for 'em to get all nice and set up, declared everything in reserve, he deployed, he rolled for turn, and I just left. I intercepted the kid, wandered back to the main store (hard to explain how our tournies are run...) and had a damned fine game with the kid. Best $10 I ever spent playin' Warhammer. The Ass ended up losing out on the top 3, because the admins counted the match with me as a bye.

 

Served him right for being an ass. :D

[whiskeybent]

“Courteous men learn courtesy from the discourteous”

 

that being said...

 

I've never played in a tournament, and probably never will. Because I would handle problems with necessary force. Meaning I would use the force necessary to break my hands on the kid's/guy's face.

[Grey Mage]

I have to ask why being fair and honest and winning at all cost are seen as mutually exclusive in so many people's eyes?

because one precludes the other

 

if you are going to win at all costs that means you dont care about being fair and honest its all about the win

Nah, WAAC doesnt preclude playing by the rules.... just think of the rules as the laws of physics, you might be an incredibly ruthless badass but you still cant stop gravity from taking its effects.

 

As soon as you cheat, youve lost. Thus cheating precludes winning at all costs.

[Decoy]

"As soon as you cheat, you've lost. Thus cheating precludes winning at all costs."

 

Incorrect. If you cheat and get away with it, as dictated -exactly- by "Win at all costs" (inclusive of cheating to win), then you've not lost.

 

"Win at all cost" is exactly that. Do anything, including cheating, to win.

[Simo429]

I have to ask why being fair and honest and winning at all cost are seen as mutually exclusive in so many people's eyes?

because one precludes the other

 

if you are going to win at all costs that means you dont care about being fair and honest its all about the win

Nah, WAAC doesnt preclude playing by the rules.... just think of the rules as the laws of physics, you might be an incredibly ruthless badass but you still cant stop gravity from taking its effects.

 

As soon as you cheat, youve lost. Thus cheating precludes winning at all costs.

as soon as you get caught cheating you may lose and even then its not always the case

 

im going to use football again as an example so I apologise to the non football fans out there but players dive in football because they have a win at all costs mentality and its generally the best players that do it

 

if they dive to win a penalty that wins a massive football match its very soon forgotten

 

if winning and winning at all costs is whats important then it doesnt matter how you play because generally people with this mentality dont look back once they have got the trophy and think well i wish I hadnt :cussed that lad over

[Wispy]

These things are not present in a 40k setting - keeping a cool head is not only desired but neccessary, and you are no representing any body of fans who will forgive your antics, only yourself.

 

Debatable. I play for the ideals and the concept of the Wolves. When my army hits the field, my army will represent. Likewise, when I'm in a game, as the governing body controlling the armies, I am equally called upon to step up and represent. Off the table, I am who I am, and I'm a real B) -ing jerk. On the table, I'm representing not only myself, but the Wolves as an army whole. How many times have you gone to a local store and simply called a stranger by their army name? Maybe it's unique to me, but the people I play against are named "Tau", "Dark Eldar", "Red Wolves" (blood angels), and "Smurf." Never "Frank" or "Brent" or "Art" or "Joe." On the gaming table, they represent themselves as people as well as the armies that they drop on the board. This is one of the few reasons I hold a rather large distaste for Ultramarine players and Eldar players; The people that I've faced who play those armies are Grade A, certified :eek -bags.

 

Likewise, while I cannot speak for others, I know that whenever another Wolf and I have met, we have to immediately play against one another. When that game is complete, if it was satisfactory, we are friends for life. I still keep in contact with the Wolf guy I met and played against ONCE out in Boston. Never saw him again, but Gods damn if we aren't good friends, simply because we're Wolves. It's the army that ties us, pride for the Wolves, and a sort of brotherhood in that regard. I think that I will go out on a limb here and say that if someone is being an ass on my table, and one of my Wolf buddies hears, they'll have my back. It might not be the same for other chapters, but in my experience with the Wolf players I've known, that's the case.

 

Also, in your example, you are pointing out professional (American) Football. The stakes are much, much higher then a 40k tourney for the contestants involved.

 

Yes, because professional icons who can be torn down at the drop of a hat, the sniff of some cocaine, or being involved in a dog-fighting ring don't have a couple million dollars a year to lose...

 

If a 40K player stood to lose their job for being an ass or other disorderly conduct at a tournie, I'd agree with you. As it stands, I think I'll suffice to say that if someone is an ass to me on the gaming board, I will, calmly and in control, table them and then ridicule them out of the store. :P (A far better option than kneecapping them, as I'd like to do.)

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You don't agree with me? I was responding to another post about why it's considered socially-acceptable okay to call someone out in professional sports but why doing the same thing would be rude in a 40k game. The individual quotes of mine you pulled out selectively and responded too have nothing to with what I've been talking about, and are representing my comments far out of context.

 

That said... what the heck are you trying to get at?

[Spacefrisian]

If a guy cheats, and nothing is being done about it. You could always say "i have to take a smoke" or "i have to go to the bathroom". This just means wasting playtime so he cant score points. Thats even worse than losing for some peeps.

[Decoy]

That said... what the heck are you trying to get at?

 

I'm disagreeing with one of the points you brought up (the latter) and debating the merits of the former. That's about it.

[Wispy]

sure, but out of context.

 

the first point: what I am saying is because athletes have fans who approve and forgive of what they do, it is more acceptable for them to have outbursts. calling your opponent a dick and accusing him cheating, as was previously mentioned, would probably earn you a scolding for the outburst. Meanwhile, a stadium full of fans will boo the referees while their Captain argues over what he feels is a bad penalty for one of his players. the opposing team might accuse him of whining, but with an army of fans at your back you tend to do what you do with justification. The code of honour you have built in your head based around a fictional faction is irrelevant to this, as admirable as it may be. You are still only representing yourself, and most of the observers probably hold no particular loyalty to you.

 

the second point ties into my first point: what I am saying is because the stakes are higher, it's more acceptable for outbursts in professional sports. Depending on, the sport\team\city, we will want them to win so bad we will forgive anything. this in turn affects the players behavior. this universally lowers the standards at which athletes in this particular professional league are judged (for sportsmanship and whinyness). In comparison, the stakes are pretty low in a 40k game for most observers, and an outside observer is still going to blast you for being a whiny chump regardless. This is something you disagree with this?

[Stormbrow II]

Grey Mage knocked this one on the head.

 

as soon as you get caught cheating you may lose and even then its not always the case

 

im going to use football again as an example so I apologise to the non football fans out there but players dive in football because they have a win at all costs mentality and its generally the best players that do it

 

if they dive to win a penalty that wins a massive football match its very soon forgotten

 

if winning and winning at all costs is whats important then it doesnt matter how you play because generally people with this mentality dont look back once they have got the trophy and think well i wish I hadnt :cussed that lad over

 

That's a problem with soccer where they refuse to impose penalties for it so a player can do this week in and week out because there'll be no repercussions for his antics unless he's caught doing it by the ref. In rugby they'll use video analysis to punish people after the game so things aren't forgotten when someone is sitting on the sidelines for 6 to 8 weeks. Yes - they actually impose punishments. But both are after the fact.

 

In a tourney if you are playing someone that you think is cheating and you don't call a judge over, more fool you. You call that as soon as you see it because you can't affect things retroactively. Really, TOs/Judges actually like to be told if someone is suspected of cheating rather than finding it out after the tourney is over and nothing can be done about it apart from banning the player.

 

@Spacefrisian: I'd head for a judge while I'm moving about too to let them know why I'm taking so long at my game.

 

“Courteous men learn courtesy from the discourteous”

 

that being said...

 

I've never played in a tournament, and probably never will. Because I would handle problems with necessary force. Meaning I would use the force necessary to break my hands on the kid's/guy's face.

This I don't get. The first half is spot on. But the latter - seriously? If you try that at a toy soldier tournament you'll be introduced to a novel concept in wargaming: assault charges.

 

"But, he cheated your honour."

"Yes, we've established that. At a game of toy soldiers. So you put him through a table because he...rolled too many dice?"

"Uhh, yeah."

[the jeske]

The Ass ended up losing out on the top 3, because the admins counted the match with me as a bye.

 

Served him right for being an ass.

so let me get this stright . someone comes to a tournament aka place where how good you play is checked . he is new he loses , because he didnt prepare himself , didnt test and etc . put no work in to it and though it is going to be alright . and then he got mocked for it. well that can happen . you on the other hand did what we call planed scraping [when one team member with a bad match up faces someone tough from another team and he quits the tournament to give him no small points] . Now the guy that mocked the kid was not ass , maybe an idiot , maybe he doesnt lack new players , but I wouldnt call him an ass . You on the other were , you waste that guy money that is realy bad , close to stealing in my opinion.

 

 

Incorrect. If you cheat and get away with it, as dictated -exactly- by "Win at all costs" (inclusive of cheating to win), then you've not lost.

ok but outside of the US, there absolutly no way anyone who is a tournement player will let you cheat [unless you play a noob , but why would anyone need to cheat against a noob. makes no sense] . and cheating means bann from tournaments and if you get cought more then one time it may mean permanent bann or even worse because most table top players know each other well , it may bann you from WFB or Warmachine tournaments too .

 

If a guy cheats, and nothing is being done about it. You could always say "i have to take a smoke" or "i have to go to the bathroom". This just means wasting playtime so he cant score points. Thats even worse than losing for some peeps.

the he calls a judge and DQs you for stalling the game. The only good and right way to deal with cheating is calling a judge or an org if it is an shop tournament. Trying to be smart against cheaters means that either your cheating too[staling is cheating] or the guy that cheats against you doesnt change [and then next time when he plays someone less smart or a noob he cheats again and they dont call a judge too and the circle goes on and on and on]

[Stormbrow II]

Can we get a like button for posts that make sense like the jeske has just posted?

[Arcadius]

This sort of conversation is what turns me off of most tournament-style wargaming sessions. My entire family plays a variety of armies, 40k and Fantasy, and I'm quite content to keep to my clique. We enjoy the "hobbying" aspects (take no offense, gents - I'm not sure of the term to use, so bear with me) of our little toy soldiers - painting, customizing bases, making heroic characters quite legendary in appearance. When we play on our war-table, the terrain is set up to represent an Imperial City and has NO tactical advantage beyond what chance might lend a particular table edge vs another. I give you this information so you understand that I play for "fun." But it's definitely MY brand of fun, and I don't seek to impose it on any other. The Jeske probably plays for "fun" too, but we're very different people.

 

I applaud getting the kid back into the game-room and showing him a good time - a little relaxed, he probably learned alot more from that game than the loss. I see The Jeske's point in your behaviour, but I'm going to err on your side simply because of the words you chose to use. The fact that he "mocked" the kid tells me alot, and I'll assume you're accurate in that description. I don't care what you play - "hardcore" or "fluff" (like the intense five month campaign we've been waging here in the game room between five armies isn't 'hardcore' /rolleyes) - you don't ridicule the inexperienced, the young, or the weak. Beat them, absolutely, especially in a competitive environment. But it ends there. When they pull the army off the table, shut your mouth. You've won, move on. Is your self-esteem so low that the only way to build it up is to inflict yourself on others? At some point, how puffed-up can you possibly be over a "win" when it was assisted by dice? If you do everything right, tactically brilliant maneuvers, cunning use of approaches... you'll still lose if your dice hate you that particular day. Have fun, yeah. Enjoy the victory? Absolutely. Slam your opponent because he lost? ... hey, Unknown Player That Boasts Too Much, you didn't really "win" against your opponent - you won 'the' game. You'd both have to play about a hundred games to get the statistics of who's the "better" player.

 

I'm 30 years old, by the by. I was captain and sponsor-coordinator of a "professional" paintball team (that means we get a paycheck at the end of our tournaments, win or lose. Course, you want the win to ensure the check next year /wink) for the last ten years. It's a disgustingly competitive environment requiring all sorts of cliches: Cracker-jack reflexes, absolute drive, pure adrenaline-fueled snap-decision making, blar blar blar. If one of my guys walked off the field talking smack to a (we use this word for something other than World of Warcraft?) "noob", I'd grab him by the mask-strap and drag him off to bawl him out in private. I don't want that on my team's head, and I certainly don't want my sponsors or the tourney officials to hear that nonsense. I guess my point is, you don't have to be a jerk to be competitive. You won? Bully for you, move on to your next opponent and be a man about it. You lost? Then take a bearing of whether or not you had fun. If you didn't have fun, don't go back. Tell the organisers with your wallet.

[RunningWolfFenris]

I love the game, I hate the "hobby" portion of the game, and love the gaming part. I always play to win, but that doesn't mean I have to be a dick to people. I've played in tournys before and crushed guys on my way to the final 4 slots but never once did I show disrespect. 40k is a social game when its being played, requiring face to face interaction and anytime you meet someone your an ambassador for yourself and should compose yourself in a acceptable manner. I've played sports my entire life and win or lose, its all about respect.

When I play an opponent on the table and crush his army, if he reaches across and shakes my hand and says, thank you for the game and I can tell he means it, I've dont my job to uphold the integrity of the game. Winning at any cost does mean that you need to alienate yourself on the way, you don't need to be someone's best friend, but at least respectful of your opponent, no matter how good you may be or think you are.

[Grey Mage]

Exactly Running Wolf. Ive tabled people before who ended up having a good time because the conversation was nice, and they were learning things about their army they didnt know- they might have been wiped off the board but it wasnt one sided, and they knew theyd get me better the next time. And Ive been tabled, and given a few lessons, and not been pissed about it for that matter.

 

There are a couple of opponents I have no respect for, and thats because they cheat, regularly, whenever they think they can get away with it. Theyve been kicked out of a few tournaments, and banned from a couple stores for that matter. I still wait to hastle them until theyve shown that theyre still doing that, yet again.

 

If you had to cheat, youve lost plain and simple. Hopefully your opponent comes over and gets a judge to smack some sense into you or DQ if you want stop.

 

I love taking 1rst in a tournament, I like being able to go home and recite an epic battle or two aswell. But cheating isnt winning, cheating isnt even playing the game.

 

And while I might enjoy the hobby aspects, Im not very good at them. Im a decent writer, but Ill never be a great painter, but I am a good general. Why would I de-value the aspect of the game I enjoy most?

[the jeske]

yep cheating to win the games makes no sense . now cheating to not get cought and be a master of it , now that I can understand [just like understand people who are profesional smuglers] . But when someone likes that there are realy sports that give more income and more chance to use your skills then a table top game.

[Grey Mage]

Like being a professional con-artist? Or a slight-of-hand dealer on the street?

 

Most tournaments dont have a big payout, and certainly nothing you could live off of. Mostly its store credit, or minis.

[RunningWolfFenris]

Thanks Grey Mage,

I understand that some people just don't care how they represent themselves but I think it would go a long way to remember that its not an online game or something like that. It's a real face to face interaction and the same rules for decency should always apply.