Wolfsrage Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 I've opted to begin building Chaos and managed to acquire a Renegade Strike Force for $212. :lol: With that said, I'm here for general advice on how to run an Undivided Legion. I'll need to fill out the full 1500 points, but would love some general tips on the army. The kit comes with: Terminator Lord 5 Terminators 20 Chaos Marines 2 Rhinos Defiler Vindicator Land Raider I've got no idea what bitz come in the Termies & Chaos Marines, so I'm not entirely sure how I can equip them. I do understand this will be extremely similar to a vanilla Space Marine list but I'm adamant about using the Chaos Codex. I like these models more and I'm ready to spend a bit more to finish out the army. Thanks in advance and happy to be here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 Hello Welcome fellow Chaos player. I just started myself a few weeks ago with exacly the same box xD even tho i'm a noob, let me give you a good tip DON'T PUT WEAPONS ON YOUR MODELS! That was my biggest mistake. I just put them on in one go without thinking about it. And now i have to buy extra kits, just for the feet to put my lasgun-plasma and so on. Best to just make the torso's, feets, head and then play a few proxy battles against friends who are willing to let you do that, and see what you like best on your marines. I myself did 10 CSM with bolter and 10 CSM with boltgun and chainsword the termies don't have arms yet, but i'm going to magnatize those. If you want to paint the landraider inside too, don't put any parts of the top on it, and i mean ANY. Also beware that if you want the 2 front claws of you defiler in the air, it's going to tip over, so put some weight in the back. For the rest it's up to you, depending on what you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 Wellcome! Lets see. Terminator Lord doesnt have much use; not even in semi-competative lists I think. Termies however get to see quite some use with 3 man squads equiped with combies, or 5/6 man squad with combies and a (chain)fist or 2. So you could use your Lord + Termies to create 2x3 Termies with combiweapons or maybe 1x 6 man with probably 3 meltas, 2 plasmas, 1 heavy flamer; 1 fist and 1 chainfist. 2 Rhinos + 20 Marines are excellent. Ussual setup is 2x Meltagun, Powerfist champion, Icon of Chaos glory in a plain Rhino. The hardest part is your 3 different heavy support units you got there. Generally these only tend to work if you take them in pairs... If you go with 2x3 Terminators with combimeltas you dont really need Obliterators as much so you could could use them all. 1 Land Raider can be viable in my opinion. I would stick 8 Berzerkers with a powerfist/powersword in it. Main problem is getting quite some meltaguns for the Marines + to make more combimeltas for the termies. For your HQ: I think you sooner or later want a Deamon Prince with wings... Its the strongest and most common HQ by far. However if you run a land raider; Khârn could be a fun option too. This depends on what you want. You would look at a list along the lines of this, 1750 points: Hq Deamon Prince; wings 130 Troops 10 Marines; 2x melta, Pfist, IoCG, Rhino 255 10 Marines; 2x melta, Pfist, IoCG, Rhino 255 8 Berzerkers; Powersword 198 Elite 3 Termies 105 3 Termies 105 Heavy Support 1 Defiler 150 1 Vindicator with Deamonic possesion 145 1 Land Raider 220 I think you got 180 points left, which I suggest spending for another troop choice in the form of an objective camper squad. Either a 10 CSM squad with Autocanon + meltagun + Icon of Chaos Glory, or a 5 man Plague marine squad with 2x plasma in a rhino. This uses everything you get from your box. You 'only' have to buy 1 Deamon Prince + some kind of Wings, 1 Plague marine squad + rhino OR another full CSM squad and 1 Berzerker squad. If you can, I suggest trading/selling the vindicator. Defiler is much better, taking 2 Defilers is much better compared to 1 vindie and 1 defiler. All in all this would be a decent army to play with. You surely got chances of winning if you are not up against Powerbuilds only ^^ The general setup most people play with is this though: 2x Prince 50-50% Plague marines/berzerkers Obliterators However you do not have to play like this, just go with what you like if you dont want to play with the strongest list available. I hope this helps you out a little Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 17, 2010 Author Share Posted May 17, 2010 Thanks for the replies. I should have made it clearer that I intend to field 1500 points. I'm willing to spend ~$50-75 to get this list up and running. I only buy 2nd hand and generally get items 30% off. Our store is a mix of WAAC and "just for fun." For example, we have some strong IG, Ork, and Nid lists (including my Nidzilla), and various oddities such as infantry-heavy Marines, my Necrons, and a Dark Eldar player. I've found that any list tends to have at least a decent shot. I do have some questions: 1) Are Terminator Lords bad? Or are they simply not as good as Demon Princes? I love the model and it seems even the basic Demon Weapon is nice. 2) What combi-weapons do Terminators come with? More specifically, how many combi-flamers & meltas? Does anyone take Heavy Flamers or Autocannons? 3) On my Troops, should I take the icon of Chaos Glory, or Khorne if I have the points? I think I'll run one squad of 2 meltas and one squad of 2 flamers. 4) Why does everyone prefer Defilers over Vindicators? 5) Possession on the LR or leave it bare? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 1) Are Terminator Lords bad? Or are they simply not as good as Demon Princes? I love the model and it seems even the basic Demon Weapon is nice. Hmm well bad generally gets decided by the fact that there are other better options. That said he's far from useless. You could just give him terminator armour + Deamon Weapon and run him with the Berzerkers in a Land Raider. 2) What combi-weapons do Terminators come with? More specifically, how many combi-flamers & meltas? Does anyone take Heavy Flamers or Autocannons? There were several threads stickied, one of them being a collection of all the sprues we get. I dont know where it went though. On the top of my head: 1 combimelta, 1 combiflamer, 3 combibolters. Heavy flamers are a good buy, if you run 4+ man in your termisquads. Autocanons barely see any use, although I use them in 2000 points list. (2x3 termies with 2x melta and 1x autocanon). 3) On my Troops, should I take the icon of Chaos Glory, or Khorne if I have the points? I think I'll run one squad of 2 meltas and one squad of 2 flamers. Seems good to me. Both Icons are usefull, I like the Chaos Glory the most as we do not have ATSKNF; it keeps your squads on the board :o 4) Why does everyone prefer Defilers over Vindicators? Its easiest to explain with the cons of the vindie: -Side armour 11 (easy to exploit, the more with the wide arc of it) -1 Main gun (if its blown of, the vehicle is an expensive rhino without the transport capicity...) -Low range (you often need to move 1 turn before doing anything) Defilers dont have any of these problem. Main gun blown off? Fleet + pretty awesome in combat ensures he's still usefull. No side armour 11, rear armour of 10 in combat either. Battlecanon can be used from turn 1 onwards; 72" covers the whole board of course. To be completely honest: I detest Vindies. Never seen them work and I encountered them a great deal of times, so also in practice they suck in my opinion, I used them myself too btw. Defilers I think are fine units; the only reason I dont use them is because Obliterators are so good. Running 2x Defilers + 1x3 Obliterators is close to as strong as 3x2 Obliterators, but not close enough for me :P 5) Possession on the LR or leave it bare? If you have the points; possesion or extra armour. I'm pretty indiferent between those 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 17, 2010 Author Share Posted May 17, 2010 So rather than Termicide, I could put all my eggs in one basket and run a Lord with 4 Terminators in a Land Raider? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 No, thats one of the problems of our codex: our termies arent strong enough to be run as a single unit in a LR (no Stormshields, no possibly Furious charge + Frag assault launchers), so we must run them with an HQ. This however is not really an option either, cause that means 4 man termies = not enough. So I vote against Termies in a Land Raider all day in our codex. Really you want Berzerkers in a Land Raider: scoring, more men, more attacks (only 1 special weapon though), frag grenades (to make up for the lack of Frag assault launcher). Your list would look like this I think if you want to use as much as possible, while spending as less as possible, while being still able to win a game now and then: HQ Chaos Lord 145 -Termin armour -Deamon Weapon Troops 10 Marines; 2x flamer, IoCG, rhino 205 10 Marines; 2x melta, Powerfist champion, IoCG, rhino 255 8 Berzerkers; Powerfist champion 208 Elite 4 Terminators 155 1x Heavy flamer + Chainfist, 3x combimelta Heavy Support Land Raider; extra armour 235 Defiler; all CC weapon 150 Vindicator; deamon possesion 145 1498 points if my calucalation did not fail. Uses everything bar 1 terminator; while you only have to buy 1 Berzerker squad + some special weapons I think. If you can however: switch Vindi for Defiler. Some general tactics for this kinda list: Land Raider + vindie races forward and pops smoke OR stay back if you are sure the enemy will come to you (or if you want to make them coming to you) 1 of the 2 CSM squads probably races forward too, the other will probably stay back and act defensively with the idea of scoring in your deployement zone. Which one to sent forward depends: against horde armies you need the flamers in front; against other armies you are better off with sending a squad with 2x melta and a Fist to the front. Termies deepstrike; hopefully taking out some kind of tank. Heavy flamer + fist keeps them usefull in the turns after that. Defiler shoots while moving forward to eventually be able to assault/help out in an assault etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 not the best idea due to the termies lacking "fearless" this can lead to them fleeing after a bad round of combat, taking your lord with them. zerkers are better suited due to being fearless and much better at assaulting ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2402767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 17, 2010 Author Share Posted May 17, 2010 Seems fairly obvious I'd be better off getting a 6th Terminator if I can. Does the basic CSM box come with a Power Fist? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 Yes, I recommend that you check the stickied topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 Zhukov, I think you should check the numers on that twin melta squad. :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 18, 2010 Author Share Posted May 18, 2010 In my defense, I checked the sticky twice and scrolled right past the Sprue Compendium... I'm leaning towards a Sorcerer now that I realize that Lord isn't a metal model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 Zhukov, I think you should check the numers on that twin melta squad. :lol: Oh shoot you are right :D The numbers are right, I just forgot the Powerfist champion haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 18, 2010 Author Share Posted May 18, 2010 Alright, I've been putting more thought into it and I don't want any marked units. :P It will probably weaken the list (a bit), but I'm going to deal with it. Additionally, there is a Chaos player at our store that runs Berzerkers in a Land Raider; I don't want to have the exact same unit. I'm stuck at something like this: Chaos Space Marines - 1500 Terminator Lord - Daemon Weapon 4 Terminators - 1 Power Fist, 2 Power Weapons, 1 Heavy Flamer 10 Chaos Space Marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, 2 Flamers, Champion with Powerfist, Rhino 10 Chaos Space Marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, 2 Meltaguns, Champion with Powerfist, Rhino Vindicator - Demonic Possession Defiler Land Raider - Demonic Possesion Total - 1315 I think my math is right; I've done this off the top of my head while at work. Not sure where to go with the last 185 points. I'm going to put the Lord & Termies in the Land Raider. I'm not opposed to a Terminator Sorcerer. If mech Chaos win deployment, do we tend to deploy in our vehicles and assume we'll keep first turn? Or do we deploy outside? Similarly, if you've lost deployment, do you assume you'll go second and deploy behind your vehicles / terrain for cover? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 You need to invest in more troops. 20 CSMs @ 1500 is not enough. The issue is that since you're running 3 Heavies + Terminator/Land Raider, you don't have alot of extra points floating around. However 185 points can buy you 10 CSMs + 2 Plasmaguns for camping an objective or 13 Lesser Daemons + 1 IoCG for your Terminators to keep them from running. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfsrage Posted May 18, 2010 Author Share Posted May 18, 2010 I could just about squeeze 8 CSMs in a Rhino with a Flamer & Champ with Power Fist. I'd have to drop some upgrades though. I will post an army list in the appropriate army list section of the forum when it's ready. For now, any other particular tactical advice? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/201667-new-to-chaos-undivided/#findComment-2403983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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