Wound allocation

[ChaosPhoenix]

Hi,

I've got questions regarding this article. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=521

 

Does the wound allocation really work as he is describing it? I know wound allocation works similar for models with multiple hit points, but in the german rulebook, there is nothing which makes the rules work like he explained it (or I can't find it). So if anyone could quote the rulebook to justify his statement, I would be glad.

 

 

My rules impression is the following. There is nothing that says, you have to split 3 power weapon attacks on 3 models, if there are enough wounds to spread.

 

If I have a 3 men Marine-Squad left I can do this. "M"s are Marines, "F"s are Flamers, "P"s are Powerweapon attacks and "W"s are wounds.

 

 

M M F
p w w
p w w
w w w

 

And I could do this (which would be stupid):

 

M M F
p w w
w w p
w w w

 

The rule states, you can make all saving throws at the same time, if your squad is consisting of identical models. True. 10 Marines, take 20 wounds, 4 die. It doesn't matter who you remove as casualty. But if 8 Space Wolves and 2 two Beer Keg bearers take 20 wounds and 4 die, who died? Maybe a Marine or maybe the beer got spilled?

 

Thats where the complex units rule comes in. You need to spread the wounds equally and roll separatly so you know, who died. I know it works different with complex units with multiple hitpoints, but thats not the case here.

 

The rulebook always repeats you can roll identical models together, not that you can only allocate wounds to identical models.

 

Help. :huh:

[nurglez]

If that above squad suffers 3 power weapon attacks, or melta gun hits or whatever.

 

M M F

p w w

p w w

p w w

 

would mean 2 marines are dead for sure, because there are 3 wounds caused that ignore armor saves, if you did.

 

M M F

w w p

w w p

w w P

 

then you would have a possible of 2 marines surviving if you made all the saves.

 

Of course, this makes more of an impact when you have several different troopers in your squad, and a champion with a fist who you want to survive til the end of the combat so he can instant kill that chaos lord.

 

and its on page 25 under complex units.

[ChaosPhoenix]

but if you put it the first way you did, 2 marines are dead for sure, because there are 2 wounds caused that ignore armor saves, if you did

 

M M F

w w p

w w p

w w w

 

then you would have a possible of 2 marines surviving if you made all the saves.

 

Of course, this makes more of an impact when you have several different troopers in your squad, and a champion with a fist who you want to survive til the end of the combat so he can instant kill that chaos lord.

 

But I gave the 2 power weapons save to the same Marine and I can't see anything thats prohibiting it in the rules. The second wound just hits the already dieing Marine. And I don't think that contradicts common sense. An initiative phase is just a very very short timeframe. A Marine can hit someone with his Powersword two times in a second before he knows the enemy is dead.

 

Since it could be a translation error or badly explained in german, I would be glad if someone could quote the passage or verify for himself, that he is right :huh:

[nurglez]

yes you can give the extra power weapon wound to that marine, however, when it comes to "rolling", you roll all like models, so even if you saved the 4 other bolter wounds, the 2 bolter armed marines would have suffered 2 power weapon wounds and would die.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, you can stack wounds onto a single model IF every other model can receive a wound of one kind or another aswell, and youll only kill the type of marine you put that wound on.

 

Example: Two Plasma cannon wounds and 11 bolter wounds are done to a 10 man tactical squad with seargent, meltagun, and missile launcher. I put two wounds fromt eh plasmacannon on the seargent, and he dies twice over. However since he is the only seargent model I can only remove him and the excess wound is wasted. I then roll 9 armor saves for the normal marines from bolter rounds, and one each on the missile launcher and meltagun.

[ChaosPhoenix]

This example again:

 

M M F
p w w
p w w
w w w

 

If I roll all like models, I would usually do it like this: There are 3 dice in front of every marine. The first one got two red ones and and a green one. The rest only got green ones. As you might have guessed, the red dice are the pw hits. So I roll like modells together which makes 6 dice - 4 green, 2 red. The first marine is killed, no matter what happens since I can't save this wound. But what if I fail another armor save? How do I allocate that one?

 

 

While discussing I start to notice bad wording in the german book regarding wound (Wunde) und to wound/ wounding (verwunden).

 

 

Edit: I think I found it, way before page 25 or 39.

 

At the beginning the rulebook states (translated): You remove a model as casualty for every failed roll.

 

Thats what I was missing. I think my wound allocation is correct, but doesn't matter anyway. I can spread the wounds as I explained, but the casualties are removed different. So even if the doomed Marine #1 gets 2 PW hits and even fails the armor save and the happy Marine #2 saves everything, the #2 is removed since I remove a model for every failed save.

 

Correct?

 

 

Edit:

The big difference in the german rulebook is page 24 saying "For everymodel that fails to save, you loose one wound." and page 20 "For every unsaved wound, you remove one model as casualty." I always understood the sentence on page 24 like I stated above and since it's under "removing casualties" I followed it. Comparing page 20 to 24-25 makes it a lot clearer.

[JamesI]

Edit: I think I found it, way before page 25 or 39.

 

At the beginning the rulebook states (translated): You remove a model as casualty for every failed roll.

 

Thats what I was missing. I think my wound allocation is correct, but doesn't matter anyway. I can spread the wounds as I explained, but the casualties are removed different. So even if the doomed Marine #1 gets 2 PW hits and even fails the armor save and the happy Marine #2 saves everything, the #2 is removed since I remove a model for every failed save.

 

Correct?

You remove a model for every failed save in a group of identical marines. If Marine 1 fails his regular save, meaning he takes 3 unsaved wounds, marine 2 being identical also dies. The remaining wound is lost as Marine 3 is different and can't be killed by wounds on the Marine 1.

[ChaosPhoenix]

You remove a model for every failed save in a group of identical marines. If Marine 1 fails his regular save, meaning he takes 3 unsaved wounds, marine 2 being identical also dies. The remaining wound is lost as Marine 3 is different and can't be killed by wounds on the Marine 1.

 

Thanks, reading page 20 made clear for me, what 24 and 25 tried to say. Thanks for helping me to understand. And yes, GW (or the translators) should standardise their vocabulary. Isn't that easier too? A little vocabulary copy & paste.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Wow, two threads i get to use this in in relitively short order

 

Frosty's Wound Allocation Order of Operations

 

1. Enemy Rolls to hit

2. Enemy Rolls to wound (Uses Majority toughness)

3. Apply one wound to each MODEL untill each model has one wound, Then Apply a second, third, and so on untill there are no more wounds to allocate.

4. Seperate wounded models into different identical groups based on wargear and profile (so all marines with just a bolter in one group, ones with a boltpistal/ccw in another, plasmaguns in another, sergents in another and so on)

5. Roll armor saves for each GROUP

6. Within each group apply wounds in such a way to remove the maximum amount of models/wounds posible (for example intant death goes on the ones with the most wounds remaing), extra wounds do NOT carry over into other groups, they are lost.

[ChaosPhoenix]

Wow, two threads i get to use this in in relitively short order

 

Frosty's Wound Allocation Order of Operations

 

1. Enemy Rolls to hit

2. Enemy Rolls to wound (Uses Majority toughness)

3. Apply one wound to each MODEL untill each model has one wound, Then Apply a second, third, and so on untill there are no more wounds to allocate.

4. Seperate wounded models into different identical groups based on wargear and profile (so all marines with just a bolter in one group, ones with a boltpistal/ccw in another, plasmaguns in another, sergents in another and so on)

5. Roll armor saves for each GROUP

6. Within each group apply wounds in such a way to remove the maximum amount of models/wounds posible (for example intant death goes on the ones with the most wounds remaing), extra wounds do NOT carry over into other groups, they are lost.

 

Thanks you, snowman made of pure awesomeness.

[thade]

The example in the book is very good, but people often read it too quickly and miss something I feel they should have emphasized.

 

When the plasma wound is allocated to the non-upgraded (bolter-only) marines along with two other saves. The plasma allows no save, so one model is removed, and the remaining marine takes BOTH of the other saves (even though one of them was allocated to the marine that died to plasma fire). This works precisely how Frosty describes.

 

I read that example like a dozen times before I finally got it.