Unclear wargear options

[fivepointedstar]

I'm not even sure if this would be right place to post but here we go...

 

i just got the c:ba about two days ago most of the read was with excitement, and a little with doubt if this is an error GW did as they were finalizing the dex.

my questions are as follows.

 

1. Do captains get to select artificer armor. c:ba says "no" but to my recollection captains are senior members right? shouldn't they get to wear artificer armor. It is not an option, do i "add in" from c:sm, and its respective points cost.

 

2. -Maybe not so much a question-. But shouldn't c:ba get an option with the aux grenade launcher like in c:sm it seems like it would be there cup of tea. couldn't i just cut an paste the c:sm wargear options over the c:ba's?

 

3. What options does codex blood angels have for new diy successor chapters. and having your own chapter master. im pretty sure each successor chapter has its own leader. Dante cant be every where at once.. or can he? Did GW give up on diy blood angels players. I think so after reading. the only options are Dante, Mephiston, Astrorath, Sanguinor, chappys, libbies, Captian's, and seth {who happens to be the only other chapter master named in the dex}

 

4. wouldn't a furioso librarian be a hq choice.. as normal libbies are HQ choices. and even thought he's a bit more rested and strapped into a battle mech im sure he'd still have some useful tactical advice and expertise like other Hq options.

 

5. C:sm honor guard are the real honor guards. c:ba's are just a command squad with a diff title. I can see its there becase its for a BA captain, but why not have more senior member like dante or mephiston being protected by same armor type guards, can you "add in: rules for space marine honor guards like in c:sm, instead of the so called honor guards there listing? or maybe there are some hidden rules for some blood angel chapter master's with his own set of honor guards I'm looking for?

 

6. the frag cannon what in the holy terra would this work. template str 6, no ap, assualt 2 rending, what do i do to arrange that? move the template twice in two different spots, or just line it up once and say it's a double wammy! I have no idea how to figure that one out.

 

this is not a codex bashing post. i see issues and so i ask for advise to get around the problems. As a matter of fact i'd have to say that c:ba is a awesome close combat army that's right up my alley.

 

Thanks

[Giga]

No. Unless stated otherwise in the codex, you can only use the options available within the codex you use for your army (in this case C:BA).

 

In other words, no, BA captains can't take the options available to vanilla captains. They can only take the options available within codex:BA.

[Fatuous]

Blood Angels are a different army than Vanilla Space marines with a different codex. I don't have the dex, but the BAs can not take everythings that a Codex marine can, if it ain't in the BA codex, then they can't take it..........

 

There has to be some benefit to taking a vanilla marine force, and if BAs were all of the C:SM plus a bunch of extra stuff on top, well there is no point to ever playing as Ultra Marines.

 

1 If it isn't listed in the wargear options, you can not give it to them.

2 If it isn't listed in the wargear options, you can not give it to them, sure it might be their cup of tea, but there are plenty of other options they can take like hand flamers if I recall correctly.

3 Any character can be taken for any chapter from the appropriate dex. You can take any of those for what ever successor chapter that you can think of and change the name (Not every one is a big fan of this, but it is perfectly legit as per the rules).

4 Maybe, but if it isn't in the HQ, then no. Either way it makes little to no real difference, except that it would massively unbalance DOW games, adding a dread to one side, and not being a HQ means that you can take more of them.

5 BAs (or any army) can't and shouldnt be given all the options available to all marines. BAs give up some options for all their crazy other benefits.

6 Ermmmmm, not sure on how assualt 2 templates work. Is it deffo a template and not blast? Don't have the codex, but I'm sure a BA player will turn up and answer that one :lol: If it is a template, then you would place the template twice before and casualties are removed, so in effect place it once and double the wounds caused.

[greatcrusade08]

I'm not even sure if this would be right place to post but here we go...

 

i just got the c:ba about two days ago most of the read was with excitement, and a little with doubt if this is an error GW did as they were finalizing the dex.

my questions are as follows.

 

1. Do captains get to select artificer armor. c:ba says "no" but to my recollection captains are senior members right? shouldn't they get to wear artificer armor. It is not an option, do i "add in" from c:sm, and its respective points cost.

 

2. -Maybe not so much a question-. But shouldn't c:ba get an option with the aux grenade launcher like in c:sm it seems like it would be there cup of tea. couldn't i just cut an paste the c:sm wargear options over the c:ba's?

 

In terms of friendly games with mates, then anything goes, but as far as pick up games goes (or tourneys) then uits a big no no to mix codecii.

 

3. What options does codex blood angels have for new diy successor chapters. and having your own chapter master. im pretty sure each successor chapter has its own leader. Dante cant be every where at once.. or can he? Did GW give up on diy blood angels players. I think so after reading. the only options are Dante, Mephiston, Astrorath, Sanguinor, chappys, libbies, Captian's, and seth {who happens to be the only other chapter master named in the dex}

Seth and dante are the only chapter masters, you can use a counts as seth and call him Michael Dorn of the blood wine drinkers chapter if you wanted.

 

5. C:sm honor guard are the real honor guards. c:ba's are just a command squad with a diff title. I can see its there becase its for a BA captain, but why not have more senior member like dante or mephiston being protected by same armor type guards, can you "add in: rules for space marine honor guards like in c:sm, instead of the so called honor guards there listing? or maybe there are some hidden rules for some blood angel chapter master's with his own set of honor guards I'm looking for?

Im not familair with the C:BA, but the unit titles are slightly different to C:SM, the honour guard are the only such unit you can take in blood angels armies, again its a big no no to mix units from codecii

 

6. the frag cannon what in the holy terra would this work. template str 6, no ap, assualt 2 rending, what do i do to arrange that? move the template twice in two different spots, or just line it up once and say it's a double wammy! I have no idea how to figure that one out.

Its similar to scout bike GL or t-fire, each template is rolled independantly of the others

[Brother Captain Josef]

6. the frag cannon what in the holy terra would this work. template str 6, no ap, assualt 2 rending, what do i do to arrange that? move the template twice in two different spots, or just line it up once and say it's a double wammy! I have no idea how to figure that one out.

 

Like the Thunderfire Cannon. Place your template and roll to scatter then repeat. Add up number of hits and then roll to wound.

 

As for the other things I don't think they're typos / errors. C:BA is a different codex to C:SM and as such get different things. Making arbitary changes is like me saying "I have paid an extra 15pts to make my Rhinos fast 'cos BA do." and even the more radical but with exactly the same logic: "My Captain has a pet Carnifex... "

 

It just doesn't work like that. Different Armies have different strengths and weaknesses that *hopefully* balance out in context with each other otherwise we could just pick the strongest unit out of each 'dex and cause havock.

[fivepointedstar]

i see the reason to my insanity. thanks

 

but.. i still cant get around the aux grenade launcher not being used... that just sucks.

[Fatuous]

For the cannon are we talking about blast or template.

 

Template is a specific type of weapon using the tear drop shaped template, and I have nevere seen assault 2 versions on anything. blasts is differnet, and you would fire twice, each with a blast 'template' (not to be confused with the tear drop shaped one).

[fivepointedstar]

yeah itsa a flame template based weapon.

 

pretty crazy to think how to work that one.

[Koremu]

For the Frag Cannon my local metagame came to the conclusion that you just place the template once and 'double up' the number of wounds, as you are required to place both in the same spot by RAW.

 

The rest of it... do it if you can persuade your opponent to let you. I have a Jump Pack Command Squad building on that very premise.

[Fatuous]

Yup that sounds right. You have to place the template to hit as many models as possible, so in effect you will be placing either in the same place, or getting exact number of hits.

 

Only reasons this might change is if it scatters, and farily sure there are no template weapons that scatter...........

[chapter master 454]

BA not allowed to take artifcer armour = terminators armour is now useful.

 

I personally liked that change because you can longer cheese the commanders save, you HAVE to take terminator for the armour save bonus and it's more consistent with how calgar, pedro, shrike and khan have only a 3+ save as well (there are all well-known heros who don't have a 2+ save by default. Calgar actually has to upgrade to a 2+ save in terminator armour!).

 

My gripe is the removal of dreadnoughts and venerables from the elite section or altogether. The only furiosos I'd ever field is if they took the frag cannon. I also agree about the double up, it works perfectly for both rules and such. It also called to be for an UBER shotgun conversion...wait...chainfist from the ironclad...I think my next project may be a rather famous characters return to 40k (and with how he messes up spells, it wouldn't be beyond his skills to actually of appeared in the 40k universe!!!)

[Wildfire]

For the Frag Cannon my local metagame came to the conclusion that you just place the template once and 'double up' the number of wounds, as you are required to place both in the same spot by RAW.

 

Not quite correct. You are not required to place it in the same spot, you are required to put the maximum number of enemy models under the template. 99% of the time this will amount to the same thing, but there are times where it is not.

[Chengar Qordath]

For the Frag Cannon my local metagame came to the conclusion that you just place the template once and 'double up' the number of wounds, as you are required to place both in the same spot by RAW.

 

Not quite correct. You are not required to place it in the same spot, you are required to put the maximum number of enemy models under the template. 99% of the time this will amount to the same thing, but there are times where it is not.

I can't think of any situation when it would not be in the exact same spot; could you provide an example?

[Xeonic]

Eh, BA were supposed to be master artificers, don't their special characters still have arti armor?

Surely their techmarines do at least?

I like arti armor as it is in Codex Space Marines, limited to techmarines, honor guard(that is to say, proper honor guard), and captains, those who would have to be at the front lines to lead troops or perform field repairs etc. under fire.

 

Terminator armor is a specialist armor for close quarters combat and teleporter assault operations, boarding and the like. The only reasons it's kinda bad are because of points cost, transport(not an issue if you're using termies anyways), and the number one flaw is that it costs a character who dons it an attack and at least in the case of libby and chaplains, they need that attack to do their job well in CC. It's still worth taking at least for the libby as it gives him the option to take a storm shield and allows him to relentless Vortex.

 

The fact that captains can't take artificer armor doesn't make terminator armor less of a bad choice for BA captains than it is for codex marines, it just makes it a choice without alternative. If you want to boost your save you can take termie armor and that's it.

 

If the loss of grenade launchers saddens you, console yourself with a hand flamer or melta pistol.

 

EDIT: Not trying to be rude, but it's codex: blood angels, not codex: red marines. The different marine codices should have their unique options and quirks. I for one enjoy my interesting and different toys.

[Wildfire]

For the Frag Cannon my local metagame came to the conclusion that you just place the template once and 'double up' the number of wounds, as you are required to place both in the same spot by RAW.

 

Not quite correct. You are not required to place it in the same spot, you are required to put the maximum number of enemy models under the template. 99% of the time this will amount to the same thing, but there are times where it is not.

I can't think of any situation when it would not be in the exact same spot; could you provide an example?

 

If, for instance, you are facing a 4 marine squad, with two opposing members to the front and left and two to the front and right. You can only cover two with the template. You now have two options on which to fire at. Again, 99% of the time it wouldn't make a difference, but consider if there were other units behind them. Now you might want to hit both other enemy units, rather than one twice. The only time I can think of that it would make a difference, and that very rarely happens.

[Chengar Qordath]

Terminator armor is a specialist armor for close quarters combat and teleporter assault operations, boarding and the like. The only reasons it's kinda bad are because of points cost, transport(not an issue if you're using termies anyways), and the number one flaw is that it costs a character who dons it an attack and at least in the case of libby and chaplains, they need that attack to do their job well in CC. It's still worth taking at least for the libby as it gives him the option to take a storm shield and allows him to relentless Vortex.

 

The fact that captains can't take artificer armor doesn't make terminator armor less of a bad choice for BA captains than it is for codex marines, it just makes it a choice without alternative. If you want to boost your save you can take termie armor and that's it.

When you think about it, Terminator Armor for HQ's did get massively nerfed when the new Marine Codex came out. Gaining a 5++ was great when Invulnerable saves did not come standard on captains, but is much less appealing when they come with an Iron Halo and most people take a Storm Shield on top of that. However, the real pain was cutting out Terminator Honors; getting an extra attack made Terminator Armor a lot more appealing. It does not help that, when Terminator honors got cut out, they forgot that a big chunk of the point cost for Terminator Armor in the 4th edition codex was to pay for Terminator Honors coming with it. In other words, the 5th edition codex cut out two of Terminator Armor's benefits, but kept all the downsides and the original price.

 

Librarians are the only SM HQs that really benefit from Terminator Armor, and that's just because otherwise they cannot have an invulnerable save. Chaplains and Captains have just about no reason to ever buy Terminator Armor; Artificer Armor is cheaper, does not bar Sweeping Advance, makes it much easier to ride in transports, and allows the powerful Relic Blade/Storm Shield combo.

[Xeonic]

I used the iron halo and sometimes arti armor in 4th...in conjunction with terminator honors.

In 4th edition terminator armor just effectively gave you terminator honors and the attack for free, but in terminator armor you had a 5+ invuln where just taking a halo(not available in termie armor) gave you a 4++

Arti armor, and Terminator honors was 10 pts. more expensive than Termie armor though(before you buy the halo!). Of course to get that 4+ invuln you'd have to take an old SS for 10 pts... Imagine that.

 

I'll take a glance at the old codex space marines here...

A master with arti armor, halo, and termie honors with a powerweapon and plasma pistol cost 165(151 w/bolt pistol) :lol: , he has 2+/4++, a plasma pistol(old pistol rules!), and 5 PW attacks, 6 on the charge.

A master with termie armor and a SS with a power weapon is 125, 2+/4++ and has 4PW attacks, 5 on the charge.

As a final example, a master with arti armor, halo, PW and PP was 130(116 w/BP), and had a 2+/4++, a plasma pistol, 4PW attacks, 5 on the charge. All the benefit of termie armor defensibly, same offensive power in CC, plus a pistol and the ability to ride in a rhino.

 

I'm not saying those were 4th ed. optimized setups either mind, it's just an example, I'm just saying that even in 4th the arti armor was "better" but the combo to get maximum damage with the best protection cost more points than a captain in terminator armor, arti armor let you use the iron halo, basically a "hands free" SS, which let you plonk down a nice pistol or other offhand weapon. Termie honors was seperate from termie armor and could be purchased for anyone who had access to the armory, it's just that with termie armor you got it in a bundle with a 2+/5++ which was a good deal. It's worth noting that the current marine codex has terminator honors built into the price of a tactical squad now to make all sergeants "veteran sergeants".

 

Then again, a basic captain was 60 pts. The master, who is statwise roughly equal to a current captain(minus armywide LD10) would cost 100 pts with a halo, putting him near current costing. I never thought it was a bad deal, and never even considered termie armor for an HQ in 4th edition.

 

On the note of "they forgot to take out termie honors costing!" Yes, that may be a big part of it, if you subtracted terminator honors from the cost of the armor in the armory you get termie armor that costs a grand total of 10pts. Half the "then" cost of arti armor. But then again, as I said, arti armor was even back then more effective. Terminator armor costs the same now as it did then, but gives less benefit, where arti armor was made 5pt. cheaper. In addition termie armored HQs can no longer get by footslogging, they need a ride same as anyone else, and that pigeonholes them to riding in a raider with assault termies, where a current arti armor captain can ride in anything including a radier, and costs less points, with more potent weapons. Currently terminator captains are so broken that they're useless, IMO.

 

IMO they should have just made terminator armor give the model +1A... And let you take a relic blade in termie armor. It would have been more of a viable choice then. People would still take arti armor, SS captains though, just because they could hop in a rhino with any understrength unit to redeploy.

I would even go so far as to say that termie armor could be forced back into use by not letting power armored characters take storm shields(ala the libby entry). Whoops, that's heresy. *ducks*

 

Still, I don't think the way to make terminator armor useful is to remove all alternatives. Feel free to disagree with that opinion as you will.

[Chengar Qordath]

Artificer Armor, an Iron Halo, and Terminator honors was a better overall combination but, as you said, also a more expensive one. It gave Terminator Armor a useful role in list-building; a nice combo-platter of bonuses at a pretty cheap price. Sometimes, shelling out around 35 points more for an optimized Artificer Armored Captain just was not worth the cost, and by not taking an Iron Halo you gained the ability to take one of the other relics instead.

 

Removing Artificer Armor is not a good way to make Terminator Armor more appealing, because it does not address the fundamental flaws that made Terminator Armor unappealing in the first place. Most likely, all it would do is encourage Blood Angels players to take Special Character HQs all the time if they want to get artificer armor.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with Xeonic that all GW would need to do to make Terminator armour worthwhile at it's current points value, without changing units of Terminators is to add one of the following to the rules for Terminator armour:

 

Independent Characters equipped with Terminator armour gain an additional +1 attack in assaults. (Though a side effect of this is Calgar and Lysander would both go up in attacks, but then they are expensive enough as is surely! Calgar would have 6 in Terminator armour, 7 on the charge and 8 when with Honour Guard and a Chapter Banner! Maybe this can be changed to only granting an additional attack when the model charges, to represent the bulk of the armour with momentum behind it.)

 

or

 

Independent Characters equipped with Terminator armour gain an additional +1 wound to their profile. (This one is all mine and if included would require an increase in points most likely, as Calgar and Lysander would go up to an impressive 5 wounds whilst the other indendendent characters would go up also)

[Koremu]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Terminator Armour that couldn't be solved by having a Relic Blade as a weapon option.

[Xeonic]

It would still be a totally useless upgrade for a chaplain(debatable, he doesn't really *need* his damage output to do his job, but IMO anyways) and a relatively cost inefficient one for a libby(minus of course the whole relentless vorticing and SS 3++save). Actually relic blade for terminator armor would still not really make it an attractive option for a captain over AA.

 

It would still boil down to this:

Buying a captain terminator armor costs him 25 pts+weapons. Result is that he can teleport in, is relentless, can only ride in raider(2 slots), and has a 2+ sv.

Buying arti armor without a tweak costs 15 pts+ weapons. Result is a character that can lead any squad and ride in any transport, as well as taking only 1 slot in a raider. same 2+ save.

Since it offers no real advantage(aside from relentless firing combis and hellfire bolters) and a couple of very real disadvantages over the cheaper arti armor, namely that he can only ride in a raider or teleport(gambleport!), and that he cannot sweeping advance(obviously not as big a deal if he's leading termies), there would still be little reason to take the more expensive terminator armor.

 

As captains can be equipped with few relatively ineffective rapidfire and no heavy weapons to take advantage of relentless, and teleporting a 150+ pt character into any board with a bit of area terrain is a gamble at best, artificer armor would still remain king.

 

I'll admit though... This thread has really tempted to kit up a captain with a hellfire combi-plas(maybe with AGL!) and lightning claw in termie armor just for the novelty of it. Efficiency be damned. :P

[Giga]

The way to make terminator armor great is to enable captains and masters to take heavy weapons, but only when wearing terminator armor.

 

This way the terminator armor would make perfect sense if the captain/master could take things like heavy bolter, cyclone missile launcher, assault cannon, multimelta, TL-meltagun, TL-plasmagun, etc. enabling the said HQ to take real advantage of both his BS5 and the relentless USR.

 

In fact, I would make this ability to take real shooty HQs the unique thing with vanilla marines. This would not only give vanilla more flavor, it would also open up a lot more options and it'd give generic characters something to differ them from SCs.

[Koremu]

It's hardly just Terminator Armour that is obsolete for Charlies. Arguably, the entire Infantry Chaplain, PA or TDA, is obsolete compared to Cassius.