Black Rage and Red Thirst

[Dosjetka]

Hello folks!

 

I don't usually post here but I do have a question for you noble sons of Sanguinius.

 

Did the Black Rage and Red Thirst manifest themselves straight after the HH or did it take some time to develop? If it manifested itself very quickly, did they have DC from the start or did that come later on?

 

Any replies are great, as long as they are on-topic :P

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[River Black]

I have always imagined it manifesting at the moment the Sanguinius fell kind of like a cancer. And just like a degrading gene pool the appearance of the flaw increases with each new group of recruits. Of course that is just my opinion.

[Dosjetka]

Ok, thanks for that River Black. We'll just have to see if others will contradict or support you with their own thoughts or official fluff. :)

 

Ludovic

[TrentL]

My understanding is the Red Thirst has always been something the Blood Angels have dealt with.

 

But the Black Rage came after Horus struck down Sang, and its important to note the difference, I don't see them even as the same disease/issue.

 

Mind you the Lexicon says that the Red Thirst is a bi-product of the Black Rage... so it would definitely have to have happened AFTER the HH going by the Lexicon.

[Dosjetka]

My understanding is the Red Thirst has always been something the Blood Angels have dealt with.

Thanks for the reply TrentL! :) It may have been. Didn't know that myself though.

 

Ludovic

[Malatox]

My understanding is that theY both started after the death of Sanguinius, although probably slowly and rarely. I'm taking this from the codex where it talks about them following Gullimans example with the codex, because they were to busying dealing with Sanguinius' death and the onset of the Flaw... Which I judge to be both the RedThirst and Black Rage.

Also a supporting factor in this fact is that they are much more alone now, because of the flaw. Try seem to have separated from the other chapter as the Flaw progressed.

 

Although it would also make sense I they had the Red Thirst before they HH but they maintained it more easily because of Sanguinius' example or that it was exasperated the Death of Sanguinius.

 

Of course there is many, Many theorys. Some saying that it's a curse from Khorne after Signus Prime. I guess it's upto each individual player, because I believe the imperium is so messed up and confused they wouldn't have recorded it and Games Workshop may never truely tell us.

 

Malatox

[shatter]

It's a tough one.

 

I can't find anything that says the blood of Sanguinius was required to activate the gene seeds of neophytes prior to his death. Nor can I find any mention of any kind of flaw prior to his death. ('May just mean my search-fu is weak.)

 

I could assume that both the red thirst and black rage became undeniable flaws only after his death. The act of drinking his blood may have been required because of who he was, the psychic echo of his death and the distance of time and space requiring the extra link to force a cohesive bond with such an unwholesome or unpleasant force or will. No matter what, it never sits comfortably with the psyche of the marine. Maybe the link to the spirit of Sanguinius is exacerbated by the constant pain of the Emperor in His throne. It's been said often enough that He gave Sanguinius His spirit. Perhaps the link is to the combined psychic/warp-will of both father and Son, this holy spirit of Rage... which would elegantly fit with the whole religious parallel of the Blood Angel Primarch and Him as in Dante's Europe.

 

Nonetheless, the flaw is said to be getting worse. Whether it be from geneseed clone error or an increase of the scope of the psychic link or both is completely open to interpretation.

[Pcm979]

I thought there something about the Blood Angels going into a collective frenzy the moment Sanguinius died, but for the life of me I can't find a reference to it. Maybe I'm going nuts.

[Jt3n]

BA codex: pg 7

 

Last line of "The Aftermath" "Sanguinius' death heralded the awakening of the Red Thirst, and its curse would change the nature of the Chapter forever." Which in my mind meaning both flaws came after the Hours Heresy.

 

Further reading does prove that the onset of red thirst and black rage has dramatically increased over the life of the chapter and they are desperate for a cure for the flaw. They are trying to slow the flaw by purifying the blood of our warriors during sleep. Which I might add is a kinda cool piece of fluff, they sleep in the sarcophagi that they we're made into space marines in. Someone needs to make a Blood Angels army transport bag that's a big sarcophagus. :)

 

-Jt3n

[Tokunator]

The Horus Heresy illustration books (Collected Visions) that were published after the Horus Heresy Collectible Card Game mention that the Siege of Terra was broken by the Blood Angels going berserk after the death of Sanguinius as much as by the death of Horus itself. If we take them as canon (and the fact that the fiction was supervised by Alan Merret suggests so much), this would mean that the Black Rage started the moment that Sanguinius was killed by Horus.

 

The fact that the Blood Angels had already experienced a similar state of rage when Sanguinius was struck down on Signus Prime support that theory. It suggests that the psychic connection between the psychically strong Sanguinius (probably stronger than any primarch bar Magnus) and his sons was so strong that his death caused massive trauma to all of them.

 

As later generations were indoctrined by the Priests and Librarians as well as absorbing Sanguinius' memory with his blood, this would explain why they also occasionally experience this trauma. Presumably, their increased psychic abilities compared to other Marines (as stated in the new codex) would also make them more susceptible to experience other people's feelings, in this case Sanguinius'.

[kollar]

Page 10, under "The coming of Sanguinus", during his upbringing, it says;

 

"This was the first time the members of the Blood had ever seen him truly angry, for he felt his comrades lives' were in danger. When the blood-rage overtook him, Sanguinus was indeed terrible to behold-"

 

Add to this that they succumbed during Signus Prime, and the above qoute showing even Sanguinus himself being afflicted by it, indicates that it was, if not a major flaw, at least present prior to the heresy and the death of Sanguinus. I woulnd't be suprised if the qoute on page 7 is actually a miss, and is supposed to read as the Black Rage instead. Or if they are meaning the fact that marines who fall to the Black Rage, automatically are afflicted by the Red Thirst as well. It's a bit contradictory.

[Pcm979]

It's probably a precursor to the modern flaw, not identical to it. That would allow both accounts to coexist.

 

BTW good work finding the reference, Tokunator. I thought I was losing it!

[Jakobus]

I can't find the reference right now but I always thought that the Black Rage came from the Pyschic imprint of Sanguinus's death. While the Red thirst had always existed at some level but increased after Sanguinus died.

The codex (5th ed) does reference them both as occuring after Sanguinus died so maybe I'm remembering some retconned note from some old fluff

[NemoHac]

Note: My knowledge is based from 2nd Ed so it may no longer be canon.

 

During the HH the BA geneseed stocks were severely depleted to to extreme losses. In order to aid in bringing their numbers back up the BA harvested significant amounts of geneseed from Sanguinus after his death. For an unknown reason this geneseed contained a genetic memory of his death and the black rage is the result of reliving this memory.

 

Based on that the black rage would have appeared in the first generation of brothers created using this tainted geneseed.

Not sure whether this would account for the red thirst as well.

[Whitefireinferno]

I always thought the Blood Angels always had the Red Thirst well the bloodlust for close combat and such and that the Black Rage only came after Sang got wasted By Horus.

[Gharad]

I am under the impression that the Black Rage is the psychic imprint of Sang's death on them which then causes the marine to think he is Sang in the battle for Terra.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I am under the impression that the Black Rage is the psychic imprint of Sang's death on them which then causes the marine to think he is Sang in the battle for Terra.

Correct. I think people are curious about the Thirst, though.

[Jakobus]

There is the possibilty that the events on Signus Prime may have contributed to the Red Thirst, and this was made so much more on Sanguinius's death