Siege of Terra Missing Loyalist Astartes Legions

[Dosjetka]

Hello folks!

 

So, as it says in the title, where were and what were the UM's, the DA's, the SW's and the IH's doing during the Siege of Terra? (the IH's because only 300 or so of their warriors were killed during the Dropsite Massacre, or so I heard)

 

Any replies are welcome!

 

Cheers, :)

 

Ludovic

[Schmitt.]

The Ultramarines were half the galaxy away, deliberately directed away from Terra by Horus' orders and then delayed by a couple of traitor legions. The Dark Angels were busy with their own internal conflict at Caliban. The Space Wolves were sent to deal with the Thousand Sons. I'm not sure what the source is for the Iron Hands only losing a small number of blokes at Isstvan V (I've only just finished Galaxy in Flames, so my only source is the Index Astartes and my attempts to read the Heresy artbook without accidentally seeing more spoilers), I was under the distinct impression that the massacre almost wiped them out.

[Marshal Rohr]

There was like 7 years or something ridiculous in between the Istvaan 3 and the Siege. No accurate reports of what the other Legions were doing can be made. Yet, Im sure they will get to it eventually.

[calgar101]

After the Drop site Massacre there isn't much on the IH... the UM were being tied up by the WB and were heading for Terra as fast as they could, the DA were on their way and the SW were returning after sacking Prospero.

[Corby]

The Iron Hand's fleet was crippled and partlly destroyed by an Emperor's Children attack (in an attempt to make the legion join Horus) shortly before the Istavann Drop Site Massacares. It took the Iron hand's several years to repair the loses.

[Hrvat]

The Iron Hands are a mystery. They lost 10 Veteran Comapnies at Isvaan V and all we know is that the rest of the Legion came to Istvaan when everything was over and then went to Medusa.

 

Space Wolves and Dark Angels campaigned together.

 

Raven Guard did some small time skirmishing.

 

Salamanders - unknown.

[Tutteman]

The Iron Hand's fleet was crippled and partlly destroyed by an Emperor's Children attack (in an attempt to make the legion join Horus) shortly before the Istavann Drop Site Massacares. It took the Iron hand's several years to repair the loses.

 

Not to mention the shock of Ferrus Manus' death, Iron Hands's are a bit weird...according to Fulgrim only the elite Morlocks were at Istvaan...but then apparently there were about 40,000 loyalists in the first wave...which would mean Salamanders and Raven Guard had something like 39000 between them. Prefer the older fluff in which they get slaughtered ^_^

 

Dark Angels didn't discover Luther's betrayal/whatever till after the heresy, they were with the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra.

 

Ultramarines as mentioned were off on the easten fringe.

[Gaz1858]

Dark Angels didn't discover Luther's betrayal/whatever till after the heresy, they were with the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra

 

This is true for the Dark Angels. There was a story in White Dwarf way back about what the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were doing. They campaigned against a heretic on a moon somewhere and in the aftermath discovered an orb that showed them what was about to/was happening on Terra. Seeing this they shot off for Terra and arrived too late for the Emperor but their arrival along with Horus death signalled the end for the traitors.

[Tutteman]

Dark Angels didn't discover Luther's betrayal/whatever till after the heresy, they were with the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra

 

This is true for the Dark Angels. There was a story in White Dwarf way back about what the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were doing. They campaigned against a heretic on a moon somewhere and in the aftermath discovered an orb that showed them what was about to/was happening on Terra. Seeing this they shot off for Terra and arrived too late for the Emperor but their arrival along with Horus death signalled the end for the traitors.

 

I believe part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels falling out was that the Lion suggested stopping along the way to liberate critical worlds (forge worlds and the like) and Russ felt that if they hadn't done this they could havce arrived in time to save the Emperor. And I also think that the news that two more loyal legions were days away was what lead to Horus gambling on a confrontation with the Emperor by lowering his shields.

[Gaz1858]

Very true Tutteman. I knew there was a bit of it i missed!

[Legatus]

The Ultramarines, besides being on the far side of the galaxy, also only just learned of the Heresy when the siege for Terra was already under way. (see Codex Space Marines, page 13)

[Brother Styphus]

And though it may seem bad that it took the SW, DA, and UMs 7 years to come back, you have to remember that once the dropsite massacre occurred, the galaxy-wide warpstorms started kicking in. Astropathic messages would be lucky if the ever arrived, and safe travel through the warp would slow down considerably. Once they were informed, the UMs were to the farthest east, where the DAs and SWs were in the south west. It would take at least a year of unstopped warp travel just to return to Terra.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Dark Angels didn't discover Luther's betrayal/whatever till after the heresy, they were with the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra

 

This is true for the Dark Angels. There was a story in White Dwarf way back about what the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were doing. They campaigned against a heretic on a moon somewhere and in the aftermath discovered an orb that showed them what was about to/was happening on Terra. Seeing this they shot off for Terra and arrived too late for the Emperor but their arrival along with Horus death signalled the end for the traitors.

 

I believe part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels falling out was that the Lion suggested stopping along the way to liberate critical worlds (forge worlds and the like) and Russ felt that if they hadn't done this they could havce arrived in time to save the Emperor. And I also think that the news that two more loyal legions were days away was what lead to Horus gambling on a confrontation with the Emperor by lowering his shields.

 

Actually you got the info, but got it backwards. The Wolves insisted on stopping to save forge worlds and such while the Lion wanted to push solely for Terra. This is why the Guard's Leman Russ tank is named after Russ, and also why the final fight happened between the Lion and the Wolf.

 

WLK

[Serraphim]

As we know from Angels of Darkness, the Lion purposefully withheld his fleet, so that he can see who the victor was before swearing allegiance.

 

Russ knew this and that is why the two of them fought.

[Hrvat]

What?

 

I think you got confused something.

[Legatus]

If we go by actual background then it was the Space Wolves that were responsible for slowing the Dark Angels and Space Wolves down. (There is an older story according to which Jonson blamed Russ afterwards for them not arriving in time to help. In the following duel Jonson stabbed Russ through one of his hearts, but stopped before killing him.) If we go by the accusations of a Fallen Angel, Jonson and the Dark Angels are the real bad guys and the Fallen Angels were the only ones to notice and are really just misunderstood.

[Serraphim]

If we go by actual background then it was the Space Wolves that were responsible for slowing the Dark Angels and Space Wolves down. (There is an older story according to which Jonson blamed Russ afterwards for them not arriving in time to help. In the following duel Jonson stabbed Russ through one of his hearts, but stopped before killing him.) If we go by the accusations of a Fallen Angel, Jonson and the Dark Angels are the real bad guys and the Fallen Angels were the only ones to notice and are really just misunderstood.

 

The problem with calling it an accusation is that you are assuming that after months of torture by Marines who are incredibly capable and learned in the ways of torturing Marines, that he was still lying. When (and damn it I can't remember his name) told of Johnson's true intentions he was beyond broken.

 

Also the actual canon has changed multiple times, and is still at best hearsay until the book is published.

 

As it is I choose to believe someone who was actually there over a story about what happened.

[Antioch Bethel]

But he wasn't actually there... he was on Caliban. And as we know from the HH books there was a definite schism in the Dark Angels ranks and one hand didn't know what the other hand was doing. He was on Caliban and was not privy to the mind of Jonson, nor to the direction Lion was giving his warriors who were with him on crusade. His story about the Lion then becomes pure conjecture and guesswork.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The problem with calling it an accusation is that you are assuming that after months of torture by Marines who are incredibly capable and learned in the ways of torturing Marines, that he was still lying.

 

What's wrong with that? If anything, people are more likely to lie after torture than they were before, in order to spare themselves further torture. It's how people wind up "confessing" to crimes they didn't commit.

 

More to the point, why would this be something that the Fallen Dark Angel would withhold? His only possible gain would be if he is a masochist and likes being tortured. Either that or he/the author waits until he's been tortured in order to give his story more credibility, knowing the Interrogator-Chaplains/readers are more likely to believe him if he sets it up as a 'reveal' rather than just rubbing their faces in it.

 

Funny how he seems to set things up/have been set up so that the circumstances conveniently try to gain more credibility for his story. ;)

[Antioch Bethel]

And what was his name? I forgot it as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Ultramarines, besides being on the far side of the galaxy, also only just learned of the Heresy when the siege for Terra was already under way. (see Codex Space Marines, page 13)

 

 

So they were sitting on the Eastern Fringe for years before they heard of Horus turning!?!?!?!

 

 

NO.

 

 

The continuity doesn't match up, and wont until the explain it in detail.

 

 

 

And just for the record, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends managed to make it from the far edge of the galaxy back to Fergax and then to Armageddon after the first reports of Ghazghkull's return, in much less than a year, and the Ghoul Stars are same distance to Armageddon as Ultramar is to Terra.

[Antioch Bethel]

I don't know if anyone cares but me, but I found out the Pre-Heresy era Dark Angles Chapter Master's name. It's Astelan.

[Legatus]

So they were sitting on the Eastern Fringe for years before they heard of Horus turning!?!?!?!

The Galaxy is a huge place. They had been fighting all over it for the past 200 years. It is not unreasonable to assume that they were engaged in one segmentum or sector for a few years.

 

 

And just for the record, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends managed to make it from the far edge of the galaxy back to Fergax and then to Armageddon after the first reports of Ghazghkull's return, in much less than a year, and the Ghoul Stars are same distance to Armageddon as Ultramar is to Terra.

Travelling speed does not really enter into it when they are only informed of the Heresy at the point where Terra is being attacked.

 

Also, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends took eight years. There is your answer to the first issue. Horus starts the Heresy, just when the Ultramarines began a grand campaign against a sector full of Ork worlds or something like that. Horus made sure (with a bit of aid from his new allies) that no astropathic messages would reach them. Employing warp storms, daemons, sorcerer circles, or whatever.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Ultramarines, besides being on the far side of the galaxy, also only just learned of the Heresy when the siege for Terra was already under way. (see Codex Space Marines, page 13)

 

 

So they were sitting on the Eastern Fringe for years before they heard of Horus turning!?!?!?!

 

 

NO.

 

 

The continuity doesn't match up, and wont until the explain it in detail.

 

 

 

And just for the record, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends managed to make it from the far edge of the galaxy back to Fergax and then to Armageddon after the first reports of Ghazghkull's return, in much less than a year, and the Ghoul Stars are same distance to Armageddon as Ultramar is to Terra.

 

Warp Storms, my friend. They slow interstellar travel and interrupt communications. And who controls the warp? Oh yeah, the guys who want to keep loyal legions away from Terra so that their champion Horus can kill the Emperor for them.

[Ronin_eX]

There are reams of fluff contradicting Astelan's claims, most of it written without any kind of bias and even from a third person omniscient perspective. I find it hard to believe anything Astelan says is true given the weight of evidence to the contrary. The Lion was getting slowed down by Russ on the way back to Terra and this was what caused bitter enmity between the two.

 

I'll take the combined weight of current Dark Angels canon over a biased and off-hand mention in a BL novel (and seriously how often does BL-written stuff outright contradict written canon?). The Astelan story doesn't hold water when held up to actual events as they occured during the heresy. At the very least it is suspect because it seems to forget that the Lion and Wolf were together and any holding back and waiting would surely be noticed by the quick-tempered Russ. The Lion couldn't hold the fleet back without raising Russ's suspicion and even if he did it doesn't explain how they arrived at the same time as Russ would surely have at least continued toward Terra ahead of the Lion who was purportedly holding back.

 

Finally you have the fact that with both the Emperor and Horus mortally wounded and Terra still besieged the victor at the time was not actually clear cut. It was the Space Wolves and Dark Angels who tipped the scales and allowed the Imperium to rout the traitor legions. The very reason Horus sent the DA and SW away is because their presence would more or less assure Imperial victory. So, as the Lion was one of the greatest tactical/strategic minds of the time, how would he not see this? It seems illogical and out of character for the Lion to not see the advantage of siding with the Imperium (assuming such a thing was ever in question, and as it is only mentioned by one known traitor I really doubt it is).

 

Then you also have the whole thing with the new Dark Angel book having the Lion actually strike the first blow against the traitor Horus (though in the end he ends up giving away some of the advantage when he hands the, unknown to him at the time, traitourous Iron Warrior the artillery he liberated he still showed that he was not waiting to see how things played out when he made a decisive strike against Horus before anyone else.

 

The whole fence-sitter thing is nice in theory but when you read Dark Angel fluff spanning from a decade ago up to now there is only one mention of it and it is from an unreliable narrator. So while some people would like to feel sympathetic for the fallen they are still dirty traitors and the crusading Dark Angels are the loyalists, not the other way around.