Siege of Terra Missing Loyalist Astartes Legions

[Marshal Rohr]

So they were sitting on the Eastern Fringe for years before they heard of Horus turning!?!?!?!

The Galaxy is a huge place. They had been fighting all over it for the past 200 years. It is not unreasonable to assume that they were engaged in one segmentum or sector for a few years.

 

 

And just for the record, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends managed to make it from the far edge of the galaxy back to Fergax and then to Armageddon after the first reports of Ghazghkull's return, in much less than a year, and the Ghoul Stars are same distance to Armageddon as Ultramar is to Terra.

Travelling speed does not really enter into it when they are only informed of the Heresy at the point where Terra is being attacked.

 

Also, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends took eight years. There is your answer to the first issue. Horus starts the Heresy, just when the Ultramarines began a grand campaign against a sector full of Ork worlds or something like that. Horus made sure (with a bit of aid from his new allies) that no astropathic messages would reach them. Employing warp storms, daemons, sorcerer circles, or whatever.

 

 

The Ultramarines, besides being on the far side of the galaxy, also only just learned of the Heresy when the siege for Terra was already under way. (see Codex Space Marines, page 13)

 

 

So they were sitting on the Eastern Fringe for years before they heard of Horus turning!?!?!?!

 

 

NO.

 

 

The continuity doesn't match up, and wont until the explain it in detail.

 

 

 

And just for the record, the Crusade against the Cythor Fiends managed to make it from the far edge of the galaxy back to Fergax and then to Armageddon after the first reports of Ghazghkull's return, in much less than a year, and the Ghoul Stars are same distance to Armageddon as Ultramar is to Terra.

 

Warp Storms, my friend. They slow interstellar travel and interrupt communications. And who controls the warp? Oh yeah, the guys who want to keep loyal legions away from Terra so that their champion Horus can kill the Emperor for them.

 

Until GW writes an appropriate excuse, there is no excuse. This has always been a massive continuity gap, and one I want fixed. Dorn had years to prepare the Palace, the other Legions made it to Isstvan V with little trouble, how is it possible that only one Legion (the largest and most efficient) didn't? The Lion found out BEFORE Istvaan V. This has always been my problem with the Heresy.

 

Did the Space Wolves sack Prospero before Isstvan III? Then what were the Thousand Sons doing for years until the Siege? If Magnus warned the Emperor of Horus betrayal with sorcery why did Horus give the orders to kill Magnus? The Emperor would have been shown he was a traitor. If it took years for the Ultramarines to find out about the Heresy, then when they didn't know they were given orders by Horus, who they didnt know was a traitor, to hang out at Calth until the Word Bearers got there for some big joint operation, then the get ambushed and are totally surprised? It doesn't make any sense. There was no way they couldn't have known, there was rebellion and fighting everywhere. GW needs to get on this.

[Priest33]

Horus gave the order for Russ to kill Magnus because he saw Magnus as a threat as great as the emperor himself. He even says so in the final book of the 3 Luna Wolves books. Only after he knew that Mangus would have no choice but to fight alone again both Horus and the emperor or join with Horus against the emperor. It was a turn of events that Horus used to gain another Legion.

 

As to the Ultramarines Horus used the Word Bearers to hold them in conflict for as long as possible on the far eastern fringes. The Warp storms then came into full bloom after Istvaan 5, no doubt the Ultramarines knew something was up but I doubt they realised the extent of what was happening until it was to late. Stuck so far out with no safe or quick way to get to Terra they tried their best to get their but where far to late. I believe the Alpha legion also had a hand in holding them up for sometime on their way back to Terra, and with Kor Phenon (sp?) attacking Ultamar itself they had to split forces anyway.

[Legatus]

Until GW writes an appropriate excuse, there is no excuse. This has always been a massive continuity gap, and one I want fixed. Dorn had years to prepare the Palace, the other Legions made it to Isstvan V with little trouble, how is it possible that only one Legion (the largest and most efficient) didn't? The Lion found out BEFORE Istvaan V. This has always been my problem with the Heresy.

 

Did the Space Wolves sack Prospero before Isstvan III? Then what were the Thousand Sons doing for years until the Siege? If Magnus warned the Emperor of Horus betrayal with sorcery why did Horus give the orders to kill Magnus? The Emperor would have been shown he was a traitor. If it took years for the Ultramarines to find out about the Heresy, then when they didn't know they were given orders by Horus, who they didnt know was a traitor, to hang out at Calth until the Word Bearers got there for some big joint operation, then the get ambushed and are totally surprised? It doesn't make any sense. There was no way they couldn't have known, there was rebellion and fighting everywhere. GW needs to get on this.

I think there may be a simple explanation for the lack of plausibility:

 

- "The Heresy took several years"

 

- "The Lion found out before Istvaan V"

 

- "Horus gave the orders to kill Magnus"

 

 

I mean, isn't that all "Collected Visions" and "Black Library Horus Heresy" material? Isn't that one of the main reasons some players have rejected Black Library books all this time?

 

 

the other Legions made it to Isstvan V with little trouble, how is it possible that only one Legion (the largest and most efficient) didn't?

Because it was not possible to contact them?

 

 

There was no way they couldn't have known, there was rebellion and fighting everywhere.

If there were uprisings in the arey where the Ultramarines were engaged (which is plausible), then perhaps they were not shouting "rhaaa, we are with Warmaster Horus now, he will defeat your Emperor".

 

 

If it took years for the Ultramarines to find out about the Heresy, then when they didn't know they were given orders by Horus, who they didnt know was a traitor, to hang out at Calth until the Word Bearers got there for some big joint operation, then the get ambushed and are totally surprised?

I have a bit of trouble discerning the meaning in that one... at any rate, the Word Bearers were probably attacking Calth during the later stages of the Heresy, when the other traitor Forces where already attacking Terra.

[Serraphim]

There are reams of fluff contradicting Astelan's claims, most of it written without any kind of bias and even from a third person omniscient perspective. I find it hard to believe anything Astelan says is true given the weight of evidence to the contrary. The Lion was getting slowed down by Russ on the way back to Terra and this was what caused bitter enmity between the two.

 

The DA and SW fleets were traveling together, they were not one large combined fleet, so why didn't the Lion just take off and let Russ continue to reinforce the supply lines? He could have very easily split off the DA fleet and sped to Earth but he didn't. Why? Either he knew that he needed the Space Wolves or he didn't want to. Given the history between the SW and the DA it is guaranteed that he did not believe that he would need the SW, so that only leaves option 2.

 

I'll take the combined weight of current Dark Angels canon over a biased and off-hand mention in a BL novel (and seriously how often does BL-written stuff outright contradict written canon?). The Astelan story doesn't hold water when held up to actual events as they occured during the heresy. At the very least it is suspect because it seems to forget that the Lion and Wolf were together and any holding back and waiting would surely be noticed by the quick-tempered Russ. The Lion couldn't hold the fleet back without raising Russ's suspicion and even if he did it doesn't explain how they arrived at the same time as Russ would surely have at least continued toward Terra ahead of the Lion who was purportedly holding back.

 

Canon that GW has confirmed is written from a biased perspective, that has changed and been changed. Also, Lion "allowing" Russ to slow down the fleet would not have angered Russ, as Russ would have believed that it was his idea, and not the Lion's.

 

Finally you have the fact that with both the Emperor and Horus mortally wounded and Terra still besieged the victor at the time was not actually clear cut. It was the Space Wolves and Dark Angels who tipped the scales and allowed the Imperium to rout the traitor legions. The very reason Horus sent the DA and SW away is because their presence would more or less assure Imperial victory. So, as the Lion was one of the greatest tactical/strategic minds of the time, how would he not see this? It seems illogical and out of character for the Lion to not see the advantage of siding with the Imperium (assuming such a thing was ever in question, and as it is only mentioned by one known traitor I really doubt it is).

 

Mutual destruction was not an outcome that the Lion assumed would happen. He wanted to be the hero, thus he was waiting to see who was winning so that he could swoop in and destroy the remains of the loser, earning him a higher place among his peers.

 

Then you also have the whole thing with the new Dark Angel book having the Lion actually strike the first blow against the traitor Horus (though in the end he ends up giving away some of the advantage when he hands the, unknown to him at the time, traitourous Iron Warrior the artillery he liberated he still showed that he was not waiting to see how things played out when he made a decisive strike against Horus before anyone else.

 

Are you sure that it was the first blow? How? He gave the siege weapons right to the IW, who he knew had a bitter rivalry with Dorn. It also creates a nice cover story either way. If he had decided to join Horus, then he would be praised for giving the IW the siege weapons and staying Imperial he would be praised for "delivering the first blow"

 

The whole fence-sitter thing is nice in theory but when you read Dark Angel fluff spanning from a decade ago up to now there is only one mention of it and it is from an unreliable narrator. So while some people would like to feel sympathetic for the fallen they are still dirty traitors and the crusading Dark Angels are the loyalists, not the other way around.

 

No doubt the Fallen are traitors and the DA are loyal, but that is only because the Lion chose for the DA to remain loyal and not join with Horus.

[Ju'kosian]

Ultramarines were attaceked by Khor Phaeron and the wordbearers at Calth, altough I don't know this is during the siege, it's probably before.

Delaying the UM's as long as possible.

 

Iron hands, salamanders, ravenguard, I've got no idea what they were doing but they were probably still building up their legions after the Istvaan incident.

 

Dark angels had that thing at Caliban what probably delayed them also.

I believe the SpaceWolves were being delayed by the Alpha Legion. (stated in Horus heresy collected visions)

[Tutteman]

Dark Angels didn't discover Luther's betrayal/whatever till after the heresy, they were with the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra

 

This is true for the Dark Angels. There was a story in White Dwarf way back about what the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were doing. They campaigned against a heretic on a moon somewhere and in the aftermath discovered an orb that showed them what was about to/was happening on Terra. Seeing this they shot off for Terra and arrived too late for the Emperor but their arrival along with Horus death signalled the end for the traitors.

 

I believe part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels falling out was that the Lion suggested stopping along the way to liberate critical worlds (forge worlds and the like) and Russ felt that if they hadn't done this they could havce arrived in time to save the Emperor. And I also think that the news that two more loyal legions were days away was what lead to Horus gambling on a confrontation with the Emperor by lowering his shields.

 

Actually you got the info, but got it backwards. The Wolves insisted on stopping to save forge worlds and such while the Lion wanted to push solely for Terra. This is why the Guard's Leman Russ tank is named after Russ, and also why the final fight happened between the Lion and the Wolf.

 

WLK

 

SHUSH! And I was on such a good run :) Ah, nearly got it then. Thanks for the correction :)

[jb85]

The DA and SW fleets were traveling together, they were not one large combined fleet, so why didn't the Lion just take off and let Russ continue to reinforce the supply lines? He could have very easily split off the DA fleet and sped to Earth but he didn't. Why? Either he knew that he needed the Space Wolves or he didn't want to. Given the history between the SW and the DA it is guaranteed that he did not believe that he would need the SW, so that only leaves option 2.

 

Or the Lion did not want to commit the available loyalist forces against the huge force amassed by Horus for the attack on Terra in a piecemeal fashion, overriding his personal issues with Russ :)

[Brother Styphus]

Just a quick mention so people don't get it mixed up, Sacking Prospero was before the SW and DA crusaded together (and ended up fighting for days straight), and the destruction of Caliban was definitely after Horus and the Emperor finally beat the crap out of each other.

 

Not fact but speculation, saying codex fluff is better than the biased ramblings of a Fallen marine is a slight contradiction. Every codex is written with bias towards the respective army it is written for. If you read the SW codex, it writes as them as the greatest things to exist (even though they attack an Ecclesiarch fleet just because they wanted to look at the STC and fortress, have chaos warped marines, and break codex astartes rules), and they even go out of their way to say Lion el'Jonson is a traitor.

 

The background material is always sketchy, contradicting, and badly written. If you would like more examples written by GW experts and new writers alike, just let me know.

 

P.S. Russ thinks he was the one saving the forge worlds, but that was all just part of Lion's genius plan to slow them down. Yay evil primarch with aspergers.

[Vodunius]

- "The Heresy took several years"

 

 

I mean, isn't that all "Collected Visions" and "Black Library Horus Heresy" material?

 

That the Heresy itself lasted years has been GW canon since at least Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned, wherein the Death Guards ill-fated long distance warp jump to Terra was stated to take place in the 3rd year of the Heresy.

 

the other Legions made it to Isstvan V with little trouble, how is it possible that only one Legion (the largest and most efficient) didn't?

Take a look at a map, most legions homeworlds are on the same side of the galaxy to Terra, Ultramar is on the far side of the opposite side of the galaxy. Personally the only problem I have with the Ultramarines missing Isstvan and Terra is the idea that Horus had time to order them away - the distance to Ultramar and traitors standing between them are enough on their own.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

saying codex fluff is better than the biased ramblings of a Fallen marine is a slight contradiction. Every codex is written with bias towards the respective army it is written for.

 

For more recent codicies, yes. The opposite used to be true (and you will find people bewailing it on the B&C). It seems that current codex writers have taken the "everything you have been told is a lie" statement to heart and are intent on making it come true.

 

Plus if codicies were really about promoting the army then C:DA would not mention the Fallen and all players who bought C:DH would be rounded up and shot. :D

[quiethood]

I think that Jonson was trying to further cultivate a better relationship with Russ. In A Thousand Sons it implied that the big duel between the primarchs of the SW and DA had fought before the heresy, but forged a great friendship together afterwards. In the last Heresy Dark Angel book the Lion wanted to be the next Warmaster, he needed his brothers support, so if the Lion needed to stop and fight with Russ to add to his chances then so be it. Also, the Lion is first and foremost a great tactician, and I think he doesn't know what to expect from Horus on Terra, so again he needs Russ's wolves, just in case. And I think he blames Russ afterwards because he's really mad at himself, but doesn't realize this until he's stabbed his brother in the heart. By the time he returns to Caliban he's crestfallen and his ambitions are all for nothing.

It's also pretty clear that the Lion knows that Horus was going to fail because it's implied that the Watchers might have shared the acuity with him. I think he sent Luther back so when the time came, he would have the reinforcements available to be strong after the galaxy was topsy-turby. But the Lion had poor people skills and didn't share his plans with the right people, and then bam he gets egg on his face at home. At least that's kinda my take at this point.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think that Jonson was trying to further cultivate a better relationship with Russ. In A Thousand Sons it implied that the big duel between the primarchs of the SW and DA had fought before the heresy, but forged a great friendship together afterwards. In the last Heresy Dark Angel book the Lion wanted to be the next Warmaster, he needed his brothers support, so if the Lion needed to stop and fight with Russ to add to his chances then so be it. Also, the Lion is first and foremost a great tactician, and I think he doesn't know what to expect from Horus on Terra, so again he needs Russ's wolves, just in case. And I think he blames Russ afterwards because he's really mad at himself, but doesn't realize this until he's stabbed his brother in the heart. By the time he returns to Caliban he's crestfallen and his ambitions are all for nothing.

It's also pretty clear that the Lion knows that Horus was going to fail because it's implied that the Watchers might have shared the acuity with him. I think he sent Luther back so when the time came, he would have the reinforcements available to be strong after the galaxy was topsy-turby. But the Lion had poor people skills and didn't share his plans with the right people, and then bam he gets egg on his face at home. At least that's kinda my take at this point.

 

While I cant comment on the second part (though i like it. its very cold and efficient.), but the first part is dead on.

The relationship between the Lion and the Wolf started poorly, that cannot be denied. But they fought together, fought with honor. That would be enough to win Russ's respect. The background states that they ended great friends.

Rumors of Russ's disaperance has him searching for the Lion, and looking for the tools to needed to find him.

 

WLK

[Rain]

So he's searching for the Lion...in the Eye of Terror? Told ya all the Dark Angels are a bunch of filthy heretics. Quickly brave men of the Imperium! Take up arms against the secretive and devious Dark Angels! What horrors do they hide in their monasteries? Surely no pious servants of the Emperor would be so loathe to open their doors to their fellow men, so come, join us and destroy the Dark Angels before they destroy our beloved Imperium like the cancer that they are!

 

(This message brought to you by the Alpha Legion LLC all rights reserved. Offer not valid on all planets. Chaos is not right for everyone, consult your sorcerer before beginning or ending a regiment)

 

Back on topic, this really doesn't make any sense, I mean 7 years should have been quite long enough for the loyalists to reach Terra, and if the warp is really under the control of the Gods, couldn't the loyalist fleets just been delayed indefinitely? Are we really expected to believe that it takes Horus 7 years to get to Terra, but then he only gets ~50 days on Terra before the loyalist fleets get there? They should have either been there already (as they would not have to fight defenses like the traitors had to) or would just have been becalmed effectively forever. Makes no bloody sense at all.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here's my question: was it 7 years between Istvaan V and Terra, or did the Heresy last 7 years? And the difference is important. Remember that thousands of worlds revolted against the Emperor and sided with Horus. Most of these systems had to be reconquered after Abaddon led the retreat to the Eye of Terror.

 

Istvaan to Terra, 7 years? I don't see it.

7 years from Istvaan to the Imperium finishing off the last rebel remnants? Believable.

[Legatus]

It does seem more likely that the 7 years are refering mainly to the Scouring, and that Horus was striking at Terra immediately after Istvaan V. Does anyone know the source that describes the time frame of the Heresy?