Why?

[cptphoenixck]

Why do people always seem to be running assault termies these days....aren't tactical termies a more rounded unit? they have alot of firepower and are pretty decent in CC

[Corby]

A 3++ Invunerable save means they can survive a greal deal of shooting and close combat attacks that ignore armour saves. In addition their Thunder hammers make them very flexible at destrying Special characters , vehicles and infantry. Not to mention whatever you don't kill in that turn of close combat will be fighting at I1 next round. Compaired to Tacitcal Terminators they are far more powerful and more durable. While tactical terminators are more flexiable they don't really excel in any particular aspect of 40k.

[SamaNagol]

Take what you like, but 'more rounded' generally means 'average at everything'

 

Sternguard are better for a fire support Elite unit, and any number of other units will do better in CC.

 

They aren't a huge lot of use.

[Twin .44]

Corby does have a great point. It's all about tactical flexibility. The more things the unit can do the more it's worth when considered for purchase.

 

But here's the problem Corby:

 

Once a person reads a single thing on the internet, they'll know exactly how to deal with it. When it comes to a unit like that with epic saves, rely on weight of fire/combat blows to deal with that squad of 3++ saves since it's barely worse than a normal save. A squad of ten Death Company with Lemmy, one power weapon, and one thunder hammer can take a ten man squad of assault terminators (6 LC 4 TH/SS) out on the charge down to one or two terminators, simply due to the amount of attacks.

 

Personally I take a unit of Tactical terminators since they actually can take out tanks better with chainfists. Sure, they don't have the 3++ save, but deep strike them in the rear and blow that problem called a leman russ out of the air from a distance.

[Polonius]

Tactical terminators run into the classic problem GW has in costing units. Termies are a pretty decent fire support unit, and a pretty decent combat unit, so they add together to form on really awesome unit... right? Except that in practice that rarely works.

 

In 5th edition, if a unit isn't scoring, it has to truly excel at a combat role (weighted by points cost), or a savvy player will replace it with either a unit that can, or a scoring unit.

 

Compare a 5man termie squad with Cyclone to a tactical squad with melta, lascannon, combi-melta and Rhino. The Termies get more long range fire power, and more move and shoot fire power, but the tacs get better close range and anti-tank fire power. The tacs also have more mobility, comparable durability, and while the termies would win in a fight, any truly dedicated assault squad will wear down termies.

 

So, you have two units that are pretty similar, neither is amazing at anything, but the tacticals score, while the termies don't and cost precious elites slots.

 

If termies went down 5pts a model, or were WS/BS 5, or could still take two heavies, then they would be worth taking.

[Corby]

Yes weight of Fire can be an issue for them. With enough shots eventually something is going to go down. But 99% of the time they will be placed inside a land raider of some sort.

The worst experience I've ever had when facing 5 th/ss termies was when they multi charged 2 Rhinos 1 tactical squad and 1 baal Predator in a annhilation game. Needless to say they termies destroyed my rhinos , tactical squad and Predator in a single turn.

 

 

Depsite your valid argument Twin44 unit is still highly durable and requires a serious amount of attention from your opponent. The fear factor involved with such a unit as well is great as some opponents are afraid to send expensive units against them for the fear of thier best unit getting squashed into a fine paste. Couple Vulkan (with codex: space marines) with the termies and then ....................................................BOOM!

[cptphoenixck]

Gaaaahhhh!, I hate the FOC right now, I really like Sternguard and both termies, and I need SHP's and Chaplins in elites....... is anyone else stuggling with how much ruddy flexability we have now, last propper 'dex we jst took everything assault based and it worked but now weve so many shooty units..... ahhh choices....

btw please dont kill me for wanting to include firepower units in a ba army

[Polonius]

The problem isn't wanting to including shooting units. that's just good play. The problem is the options that offer the same things as termies, and the opportunity cost to taking those termies.

 

A CML or AC 5 man termie squad runs at exactly twice the cost of a dreadnought with Storm Bolter and Assault cannon (or MM and Missile launcher). What this means is that, at the cost of seldom used heavy support slots, you can get twice the AC power, half the SB power, and 4 S10 DCCW attacks instead of 8 S8 PF attacks and 2 S4 PW attacks. With the new damage results, AV 12 is now pretty survivable. Termies are better against some things (monstrous creatures most notably), but dreads ignore the weight of attacks that can bring down termies.

 

Perhaps most critically, dreads can take drop pods, which allows them to deepstrike more accurately and more reliably with Drop Pod assault.

[cptphoenixck]

Perhaps most critically, dreads can take drop pods, which allows them to deepstrike more accurately and more reliably with Drop Pod assault.

Except that they cant assault anymore out of DP's which is killing my fav 8 dreadnought strong army idea

[Polonius]

Nothing could ever assault out of a drop pod, at least not with standard codex rules. Terminators can't assault after deep striking either, which makes them even.

 

Furiosos, or even heavy support MM dreadnoughts can pop tanks pretty reliably on the drop. a Dread with MM, heavy flamer, and a pod is cheaper than a tactical squad, and has an amazingly good chance to hurt a heavy vehicle on the drop.

[cptphoenixck]

Nothing could ever assault out of a drop pod, at least not with standard codex rules. Terminators can't assault after deep striking either, which makes them even.

They could In the original FW rules, I'm more bemoaning this, surely they should be able to game wise otherwise there's pretty much no point taking anything except hard wearing/shooty squads in dp's

[Isryion]

Nothing could ever assault out of a drop pod, at least not with standard codex rules. Terminators can't assault after deep striking either, which makes them even.

They could In the original FW rules, I'm more bemoaning this, surely they should be able to game wise otherwise there's pretty much no point taking anything except hard wearing/shooty squads in dp's

 

Nah, they'd be really disgusting if they could do that. If you drop a furioso or DC dread in the right spot, they are still able to pop a vehicle with their melta, and since you've seen your opponent's deployment, you should also be able to minimize the threat to them. My DC dread in a drop pod has done fine, though I'm guessing that life may change for it as opponents realize it should be their number one priority.

 

You're going to want to pick yourself up a stormraven...

[lorider2]

Almost every unit has its place. With the right list and general - tacticals, speeders, attack bikes, and regular termies can be great. All of these units have some great uses and are fairly well rounded. I have had good success with a cyclone termie unit myself. Very rarely do I let my opponent have a chance to catch his breath to overwhelm them with weight of fire or prime assault units. However, due to firepower, model count, and speed they rarely do great damage and is mostly a paper tiger and/or an annoyance. But I still find such a unit can be very helpful in the grand scheme of things. Of course, so can an Acan and MM dread for the same points, as mentioned above.